Epirus script and Agoge question

Hi All

Playing 2.3 as Epirus, so far so excellent, but theres a couple of odd things that I thought I'd mention to see if they're prevalent.

First I'm not 100% sure the Epirus makedonia script has terminated after eliminating makedonia. I've had a pirate invasion and a notification 'this means war' when taking a city despite makedonia long since being eliminated from the game (no reemergence either)

Second I dont seem to be able to get the agoge to trigger properly. as I understand it i need to send a young faction member to sparta and have them end turn there, this should give them some new traits and remove their movement. so far I've only got the 'undergoing agoge training' by using console commands. I havent got it to work naturally.

I've no idea if this is me doing something wrong or not.

Many thanks for the brilliant mod

Originally Posted by Gunydii

Hi All
Second I dont seem to be able to get the agoge to trigger properly. as I understand it i need to send a young faction member to sparta and have them end turn there, this should give them some new traits and remove their movement. so far I've only got the 'undergoing agoge training' by using console commands. I havent got it to work naturally.

I've no idea if this is me doing something wrong or not.

Many thanks for the brilliant mod

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...versions/page8
It seems like Agoge training trigger is broken. Quintus already noted that.
In the meantime i am using give_trait "this" SpartanAgoge x with my FM when they reach age 20.
X goes from 1 to 5 according to these.
( from ...Medieval II Total War\mods\ebii\data\export_descr_character_traits.txt)

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Trait SpartanAgoge
Characters family
ExcludeCultures cul_5, cul_4, cul_2, cul_7, cul_6

Level In_Spartan_Agoge
Description In_Spartan_Agoge_desc
EffectsDescription In_Spartan_Agoge_effects_desc
GainMessage In_Spartan_Agoge_gain_desc
Threshold 1

Effect Command -5
Effect Piety -5
Effect MovementPoints -20

Level SpartanFailed_Agoge
Description SpartanFailed_Agoge_desc
EffectsDescription SpartanFailed_Agoge_effects_desc
GainMessage SpartanFailed_Agoge_gain_desc
Threshold 2

Effect Piety -2
Effect TroopMorale -2

Level Failed_Agoge
Description Failed_Agoge_desc
EffectsDescription Failed_Agoge_effects_desc
GainMessage Failed_Agoge_gain_desc
Threshold 3

Effect Piety -1

Level BarelyCompleted_Agoge
Description BarelyCompleted_Agoge_desc
EffectsDescription BarelyCompleted_Agoge_effects_desc
GainMessage BarelyCompleted_Agoge_gain_desc
Threshold 4

Level Completed_Agoge
Description Completed_Agoge_desc
EffectsDescription Completed_Agoge_effects_desc
GainMessage Completed_Agoge_gain_desc
Threshold 5

Effect Piety 1
Effect Chivalry 1

Level Excelled_Agoge
Description Excelled_Agoge_desc
EffectsDescription Excelled_Agoge_effects_desc
GainMessage Excelled_Agoge_gain_desc
Threshold 6

Effect Piety 2
Effect Chivalry 2

Depending on traits sharp/charismatic/vigorous i may go 4 or 5, if x/x/languorous i go with 3. If etnicithy is spartitas + sharp/charismatic/vigorous i go with give_trait this AgogeKrypteia 3. Paidiskos... your choice. You can check the triggers in that same file i mentioned to see if you can "interpretate" them.
Of course those FM "in training" are parked in Sparte till they turn 20 ( remember to make there a shool_1, shool_2, shool_3 asap) and keep in mind the "court" thingy. The FL should be close , i keep him in Sparte or Korinthos or Athenai, in order young FM gain loyalty ( or at least dont loose the loyalty they come with). Opppss i forgot to mention the faction capital must be the city the FL is parked in.

Umhh once you make them start training... can you see progress? do they finish the training? If they do... your solution is more "elegant" than mine

Regards:

melvidh

Re elegance of the Agoge work around I've not invested enough time to have a good one, I just mentioned it as some elements of it seem to work. Incidentally, do schools stack with the Agoge even if the Agoge is working as intended? I didn't build a school in sparta just cos it felt pretty 'exploitative' as a human player. Similarly how does the training interact with the 'imposter problem' if you've got a client state, could you still send young FMs there and 'not much' will go wrong, at least not if they're not the governor.

Re early events, Skodra makes sense. re dead factions, maybe im just really bad, but with the way the AI gets a fair bit of help especially when theyre small, I couldnt think of a way of surviving without claiming everything from Pella down. Imo one of the great shames of the really interesting start, you almost feel obliged to crush all opposition to develop your little empire, let devastation clear, build things, retrain troops etc - not a complaint though I'd guess this is basically unavoidable.

Out of interest are there any plans to further develop the 'King of Sparta' script? As far as I could tell its basically ends depending on the type of government you build, it'd be interesting if you got a new offshoot of the family tree and had to balance keeping spartans happy (by keeping that line alive, and someone of that line in sparta to do the king thing, keeping the gov allied etc) vs development / wanting rid of that line if they become a burden to your empire. Could a trait or an ancillary with 'faction leader like' stats be used?

Originally Posted by Gunydii

Incidentally, do schools stack with the Agoge even if the Agoge is working as intended? I didn't build a school in sparta just cos it felt pretty 'exploitative' as a human player.

Erhh i dont know if i understand what you mean. I build schools in Sparta asap when using the Agoge training to avoid my young FM become unschooled trait line, that i dont like at all, and aiming to get them the erudite trait line ( and good ancillaries). An exploit? dunno.. i dont think it is.

Originally Posted by Gunydii

Similarly how does the training interact with the 'imposter problem' if you've got a client state, could you still send young FMs there and 'not much' will go wrong, at least not if they're not the governor.

As you say.. while the FM in training dont become governors there is no problem at all. If they surpass the client ruler you, in fact, will have troubles. I am playing KH so i use factional governments in Sparta, dunno what the other hellenistic factions could do. I mean it is not a problem if a FM in training become governor of Sparta ( happened to me more than once) not the best situation, but dont harm much.

Originally Posted by Gunydii

Re early events, Skodra makes sense. re dead factions, maybe im just really bad, but with the way the AI gets a fair bit of help especially when theyre small, I couldnt think of a way of surviving without claiming everything from Pella down. Imo one of the great shames of the really interesting start, you almost feel obliged to crush all opposition to develop your little empire, let devastation clear, build things, retrain troops etc - not a complaint though I'd guess this is basically unavoidable.

Just my thoughts when playing KH, "unavoidable" to get rid of Epeiros and Makedones really soon. It is annoying how they can hold 2 or more full stacks with just one city while i can only afford 1 or 1 1/2 with 4 or 5 cities ( and keep building stuff in my cities, of course). Not a single criticism here to the Team. I agree with the way they have done this. Up to everybody to go slowly and turttle or go blitzkrieg, you have both choices and both are enjoyable.

Regards:
melvidh

Originally Posted by melvidh

Erhh i dont know if i understand what you mean. I build schools in Sparta asap when using the Agoge training to avoid my young FM become unschooled trait line, that i dont like at all, and aiming to get them the erudite trait line ( and good ancillaries). An exploit? dunno.. i dont think it is.

I just thought it was a bit of a 'double dip'. I think its a bit "too" good to get Fms benefiting from the Agoge influence whilst not having to trade off anything. they get all the benefit of standing still in a place with a school and get Agoge too. Possibly its not that different from building a school somewhere that gives bonus influence like babylon or athens (i think you get some 'free' traits at both).

I guess its sort of role play, if i want the schooled i send them to athens if i want them hardened i send them to sparta.

I forgot to mention that I've been using the "SpartanAgoge" trait rather than the "outcome" traits. This binds them to sparta for a number (8?) of turns. Off a grand sample of one "something" seems to happen, after a number of turns my FM got the completed Agoge trait, but with no 2nd stage, and i think their personality could/should have let them excel, but it took half the total time (i think).

Originally Posted by Gunydii

First I'm not 100% sure the Epirus makedonia script has terminated after eliminating makedonia. I've had a pirate invasion and a notification 'this means war' when taking a city despite makedonia long since being eliminated from the game (no reemergence either)

Killing Makedonia will not make either of those things stop, that's how it's designed. None of the early event scripts are so easily defused. The pirates carry on until you capture their source, which is Skodra.

The second one wasn't designed to account for either faction being dead; I'll have to add something to them for 2.3a that will stop it triggering unless they're around.

Agoge is broken in 2.3, that is fixed for 2.3a.

You don't need to destroy factions in order to defeat them. Leave Makedonia with just Pella, get peace and trade with them, then move on. Leave KH with just Rhodos, where they don't even have a land border with you, and you can ignore them.

Three settlements is minimum economic viability. Five is solid and will keep your treasury on an upward spiral, you don't need to destroy anyone.

Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius

You don't need to destroy factions in order to defeat them. Leave Makedonia with just Pella, get peace and trade with them, then move on. Leave KH with just Rhodos, where they don't even have a land border with you, and you can ignore them.

aye I intended to leave KH on rhodes, i dont know how they 'died' as a guess they ran out of FMs, all i know i didnt strike the killing blow.

on Makedonia, economically I'd really struggle to not take those mines in Pella, on role play, pyrrhus can't be king of Makedonia without a dynastic administration in Pella can he? It took 20 years, but I got there before he departed

I do really REALLY hate killing factions though.