WIP Fix Pack 1.2.2b - Battle Stats Overhaul, come help us test! (Updated Oct 30)

[KYREAPER]

Just so you know, this theory is highly debated among historians. There is currently no consensus agreement on what happened when two Greek phalanxes clashed and the shoving match model is just one of many possible ideas.

Exactly, This is my conclusion as well. I 100% agree.

The only tried and true documented facts I know of are that phalanxes would completely break after suffering minor losses (say losing as few as 10 of 200 men) within a short amount of time... as to the men, this meant the formation got outmatched somewhere and was doomed to fail. Im guessing because at some point units would try and fight through those few losses and eventually found that much greater losses and a total wipe soon followed. Often the huge casualties from these battles came from the chase after the route.

So hes right about a phalanx shattering upon immediate flanking. The idea was just to now even ALLOW flanking.
And often the only times that the 10-man-lost rule didnt apply was when fighting a non-phalanx unit, in which he non-phalanx unit always had lost much more than 10, so the winning phalanx unit would continue. But in a phalanx-phalanx battle, from documents iv seen, after one side lost a small handful of men, it was considered a loss and they routed to save atleast 30% of the unit.

However you cant simulate phalanxes shattering instantly from being flanked in this game for gameplay reasons. It would render phalanxes 100% useless as 1. Greek maps are too flat without hills that IMPEDE movement... so flanking is too easy and 2. Flanking is so easy regardless of the map, that if someone just sent one tiny horse unit alllll the way around the map and hit the general unit, game over.

So for gameplay purposes, it must continue to be this way because the game design does not support 100% accuracy.

[drillmaster]

I dont know about you guys but i ve yet to see a unit hold against a rear charge by anything but a mob. If you manage to pin your enemy and then charge at the rear they will break sooner or later. This applies to everyone from levy hoplites to triarii. The difference it in timing. Low qualirlty troops will rout almost immediatellly while veteran trained units will stand their ground. You just need to cycle charge a few times. Its not that difficult once you ve won the flank battle.

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[hoho96]

quality units that are not tired should be able to hold against a rear charge for a while.
If you've already won the flanks, and fighting all enemies on the front, chances are most enemies will be at least tired/very tired. rear charging such units SHOULD rout them since you will get a lot of kills with the charge bonus, and most units will lose moral after the battle losses + being tired + rear penalties.

[Dead*Man*Wilson]

I was playing around last night as the Arverni versus Romans. I charged the rear of a tired legionnaire unit that was still engaged with mid-tier swordsman that they routed after a homeward charge from heavy cav. I did another rear charge against a fresh legionnaire unit and they did get a morale shock, but didn't bail and held firm.

On another note, I've noticed after charging in, some units on the front seem to have their feet off of the ground or otherwise are a bit more elevated than those they are fighting with. Could just be me, though. Units on the front line also jiggle into position after a charge. I saw this during early 1.2 testing, so it seems like this is just a common issue that can be worked out.

[KAM 2150]

Thanks for all the input


I have a thing to ask, could you good people report units that you think are the most balanced stat wise? Like that you feel unit X performs exactly as you think it should against unit Y? Remember that units get +15% hit chance as a base. The point of it is to find which stat scale is the best, that way I will be able to judge what should be lowest and highest hit chance across all unit.

[hoho96]

I've tested polybian Hestati vs greek spears (thoreus spears) and they did win 2 out of 3 times but with at least 40% casualties each time. I'd say this is a reasonable benchmark.
Principes vs standard greek heavy hoplite frontally won 1 out of 3 times but with extreme losses every time. The win was when the Principes was out of formation attack.

There seems to be an issue with rear charges because any rear charge even on a fresh confident unit will instantly switch it to Shoked and if it takes enough damage will rout right away.

I honestly don't know what to think of formation attack. It's great on the defence since it keeps the troops from getting some moral penalties, but when attacking it's almost always better to have it off.
Principes vs Thoreos Swords (both with formation attack on) both seem to perform similarly until you switch off formation for the principes and they will win.

[projectcorner]

May I know how to make sure loading it before the main mod?

[FlashHeart07]

Look in your data folder. Sort your mods in alphabetical order. Then you will see whether it loads before DeI. Which it should. Otherwise just add @ in front of the name


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[projectcorner]

Look in your data folder. Sort your mods in alphabetical order. Then you will see whether it loads before DeI. Which it should. Otherwise just add @ in front of the name


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Got it! Thanks.

[CIaagent11]

Only observation I can add is that this fix pack has made garrisons incredibly weak. Since they are weak units, medium units just cut through them without much damage. This made cities even easier to take and would speed up campaign expansion. In case these changes are added to the next DeI, do give garrisons some buffs to make up for that.

[FlashHeart07]

Only observation I can add is that this fix pack has made garrisons incredibly weak. Since they are weak units, medium units just cut through them without much damage. This made cities even easier to take and would speed up campaign expansion. In case these changes are added to the next DeI, do give garrisons some buffs to make up for that.

Important information. We would definitely not want that. The game is easy enough as it is. We dont need weaker garrisons.

[projectcorner]

I just give some random suggestions from testing the fix pack in custom battle.

Armenian Nakharar Thorax Swordsmen have weapon damage and deadliness of Axe (8+2) instead of sword (11+0).

In the actual custom battle, I can see half of them use swords and the other half use axes, so I am not sure if it is intentionally made that way.

If so, is it still appropriate to call them swordsmen?

[projectcorner]

I also tested the formation attack a bit.

Overall, the formation attack on Roman legionaries looks good to me as a player. Personally I will be glad it could be added.

It could help to hold the battle line much better when fighting barbs and cavalry.

However, while fighting pike phalanx, the formation attack will have a lot of disadvantage as the units will stay in front of the pikes instead of flanking them. As a player, it is easy to disable the formation and let them flank the phalanx, but in my test battles AI have no idea to disable it.

I think it is a minor issue though.

[CIaagent11]

After playing with this fixpack for a while, I attempted to switch back to "vanilla" DeI (because I wanted 2 tpy back), and I was immediately struck by how unbearably slow and easy battles were. I didn't mind it at the time, but after quickly having gotten used to the new setup, the old one felt like it lasted forever, and units had unbearably good morale, especially when surounded. It was like "didn't manage to surround you like five minutes ago, why are you still there?" Everything being slow and predictable, the player can exploit that, and I could at times win battles where the game would show a 10% win chance. Longer lasting morale definitely benefits the player, because the AI does not know how to manage it, and just runs it's units into your rotating lines until they rout. So I definitely prefer these changes.

Sorry that I cant report the requested units that perform properly against each others. I don't quite know enough about this battle testing to know what to test for.
What is formation attack and how do I turn it on?

[Dresden]

Thanks for the feedback guys, its very much appreciated!

In terms of garrisons, its very possible their stats haven't been properly adjusted.

[Holland_NL]

Please take your time with this overhaul! Getting it right is an enormous challenge and can make or break the mod. Thank you everyone for making this possible as I am sure the mod will be even better when the overhaul is done

[KAM 2150]

Wow amazing feedback from your all! We will make something great out of it, all info provided was very valuable

[Maetharin]

Although I very much like the changes you've made, I think combat in general ought to be a little bit slower, whereas units ought to flee earlier, especially with recent losses

[KAM 2150]

Yes, it will be slower a bit but not until I will find perfect min/max melee attack values.

[Roma Invicta753]

Very interesting to see Formation attack again with the Romans. I hope it won't be a problem for them to fight against the pike phalanx formation units, as it was in vanilla. Also, I believe that if that formation works, you should add it to all Roman auxiliary melee/spear armed units. And one more thing guys, I noticed that for some Auxiliary units, armor level is 14, others have 16 while wearing same Hamata/Squamata. I think all of them should have armor level at least 16. Thanks for your attention. I really appreciate your hard work, you truly made Rome 2 the best game in Total War series.