Is the Chaos Invasion mechanic lazy game developing?

[SKSlave]

I think Warhammer is a step in the right direction for Total War, however some game design points leave me somewhat dubious. The Chaos Invasion is just a reskinned Realm Divide/Civil War, and I don't think Creative Assembly have got this mechanic right yet.

My main gripe is that it's so artificial and predictable. By this I mean you know when, where and how Chaos are going to invade. Nothing you do throughout the game affects the invasion in any meaningful way - all the player can do is build defences and hope Chaos don't dump all their stacks on your cities. I think some extra layer of strategy would be welcome here - if the player can possess or raze certain provinces in Norsca or the northeast of the map, the Chaos invasion will be weakened due to a lack of supplies. Why can't I bribe the Chaos leaders to attack my friends first, buying me some time but suffering a major relation penalty with my former friends? Wouldn't it be cool if the player could somehow reform the Norsca tribes so they end up opposing Chaos instead of supporting them, so they could act as a buffer zone between Chaos and the player.

I understand the need for an endgame challenge so the game doesn't become a steamroll. However, simply dumping x number of stacks on the player and just saying "be prepared" is lazy. Some extra tools to manage the invasion would be great.
I'm aware of the need to balance lore and gameplay, but I believe gameplay should always triumph. I'm a novice at Warhammer lore, so cannot say if CA have used lore as a justification for lazy game development, but I do feel the Chaos Invasion could be better implemented.

Regards

[Daruwind]

From lore perspective setting Norsca against Chaos forces is nonsense. Not long ago we had discussions that Norsca is de-facto faction of Chaos Warriors...

We have Beastmen, who are simply mutated men running in big herds around woods and doing midnight ritual stuff.
We have Norsca and other northerners/barbarian tribes who basically worship Chaos powers in their more tribal/animalistic way...
We have Warriors of Chaos who are de-facto the top elite guys of these northerners. Proving themselves to be worthy ones in the eyes of Gods.
And finally we have Daemons of Chaos, who are either humans choosen and granted daemonhood by ruinous powers or just cruatures pulled from Realm of Chaos...

In-fighting between these factions makes sense! And so I like how in WH1 i can play from different perspectives. They are constantly waring to prove who is the biggest champ around. That´s only thing preventing Chaos from domination. Because these factions usually backstab each other, sub factions starting to kill other subfactions....basically you need one big leader to unite them all and keep them in line. And until you get Archeon Everchosen nobody could do it properly...

From gameplay point of view, you are right. But let´s say you are strong enough to subjugate Norsca. The Chaos invasion then will be less issue than to somebody fighting both Norsca and Chaos together while you have more powerful empire..It is not so easy to balance out this properly. Plus I think current "relam divided" as Chaos invasion is lore friendly and accurate. Although I´m using mods to boost it little more.

[Cerberus2185]

Meh, I don't really personally care for the realm divide/civil war stuff it get to a certain point were it's just prolonging the game for no reason. I do understand the concept of the human having to face a 'late game boss' though - I actually thought that the Huns in Attila were pretty well done for instance.

[Ichon]

It makes some of the northern start positions in the Old World rather boring when you know from turn 80-140 every campaign majority of battles will be vs Chaos. Being able to turn Chaos against other factions first for large sum of money and maybe +2 Chaos corruption in your lands (in addition to the +1 everyone gets when Invasion starts) until Chaos is defeated sounds fun.

Also for replayability the option to give certain factions extra bonuses... for example some Empire campaigns would be much more interesting facing large Greenskin Waaaghs coming from the south around turn 80 rather than Chaos so giving Grimgor 3x normal AI bonus and Chaos gettings 1/2 bonus would be better. Another game Vampires or Beastmen could be more potential to be the scourages of the game.

Also having to fight Chaos so often wears me out on that faction so I barely want to play them and do not look forward at all to Game 3 which CA has said will be "all about Chaos" eh... I'll buy game 3 for Ogres but if it is all about Chaos the more times I play vs Chaos invasion my interest plummets.

[The Peacemaker]

Well, total war has always been about the battle map. ....campaign stuff has always kinda been a fun side thing.
There is a small market for intense campaign map strategy games, but those type usually manifest in a 'numbers games' type. Not alot of cool visuals.

[Chlodwig I.]

I can support Ichon statement.


And another thought
At one point only preparing for the invasion, so you need to reach a certain development level, if you play Empire or Vampires till round 100 to survive the invasion.
after the invasion you can rebuild the ruins...
don't know but for me the chaos invasion is to early not end game its mid game
when I play VC i got around turn 80 both sylvanias on Tier4 maybe T5 (depends on Manfred if he confederates or not) and between 2-3 of the surounding Empire Regions partly or completly conquered an on T3-4.
2 Good Stacks with Vlad and Isabella and a 3rd maybe 4th stack (Ghorst) with crap units.


While playing is as Dwarfs, Orks or Woodelves (...maybe Bretonia) you don't have to really care for the invasion start you can continue playing because it will take a lot of time till they reach you which gives much more to prepare
so for those factions its really Endgame and than its easy to beat the Chaos Invasion.

[Daruwind]

Even for me it is a bit early, so i´m using mod to little delay it and make it stronger. And the same for faction objectives. I want to complete 100% even the sub ones so I change requirement a little to have more room....typically I complete the main objective of chapter long before all smaller ones..missing some money due to this. :/

But this is small problem which could be solve by mods. Basically everybody is playing with little different speed etc..

[daelin4]

I'd say simplistic rather than lazy.

I've noticed that Total War game design is largely trying to make a game that operates at a particular level of function. To many of us, that function is rather low so naturally we bemoan how primitive it is.
But I also think they want to sell a product that isn't going to be so complex and difficult that it hurts their bottom line.

And of course, it is much easier to sell something simple than something that is complex. In fact, it is much better to sell something simple, and spend the marketing budget trying to convince people it is complex!

[Yerevan]

To the OP : yes, they are. And also incredibly immersion breakers. The fact that the same thing happens with every rituals made the voortex camapgn extremely disapointing for me. Can't they just script a normal invasion with waves of chaos armies coming normally from the chaos wastes ? Where did cthe haos amies and vortex campaign's mercenary intervention armies got those all teleportation devices from ?

Well, total war has always been about the battle map. ....campaign stuff has always kinda been a fun side thing.
There is a small market for intense campaign map strategy games, but those type usually manifest in a 'numbers games' type. Not alot of cool visuals.

You can see it like that but some past editions had the right level of campaign complexity to create a lively environement that would give a context to your battles and build a story arount it that was immersive enough to make you continue to think about tthe game between sessions. The fact that a certain battle is the one that will decide block the road of an invasion, or the first test of fire for your faction heir is waht will make everyt in battle evnts more exciting. It's not just a random battle among manuy anymore, it's a major event in the story of a lively universe. Without this immersion, htis story, battles just get repetitive and in the end, well, rather boring (especially once you start to understand how to doutsmart the AI. And that usually happen pretty soon after you bought the game).

I mean, take some time to read some M2TW Kingdoms AAR (especially with some mods like Deus lo Veult or SS6.3 with Byg's grim reality, etc...) and you will see how rich and complex M2TW's campaigns could get, thanks to its campaign map mechanisms. The crusades are a good exemple. Same with how realm division could make S2TW or FOTS mid and end game so exciting to play and till the end !

I doubt I'll ever finished a TWW vortex campaign because there is always a moment where I'lm like wtf, how did the AI arbitrarily chose to spawns armies there. There's no story wise reason for it, it's just maths.

[LestaT]

If I remember correctly, Realm Divide was fairly hated back on those days.

I personally like that feature but I really like the FotS version of 2 sided war at the end. Can't remember the detail since I dont play much FotS as I dont really like the period where guns are the main weapons.

I like the end of Norsca campaign where you get to choose whether to join Chaos or against them. I would something like this to develop for ME campaigns especially for the 'evil' factions like DE, Skaven, Beastmen, Norsca and maybe VC while other 'good' factions follow the shield of civilization style from game 1, except now Empire is joined by LM, HE, Dwarfs and maybe WE.

Make it a big world war with 2 sides. After the war is won, the game can continue like Warhammer 1 Age if Peace which is my best moment in any Total War games.

[Yerevan]

True, I even think I hated it at first. And I agree that FOTS version of it was the best. It was great because you didn't have necessarely to conquer everywhere before launching those big expeditions on Kyoto and (... don't remember the other objective). I'd usually grow a 5/6 provinces empire before attacking withy my allies. I don't like gun warfare so much too, but the rhythme of this campaign felt so good this is probably the TW title where I finished the most campaigns. It's crazy how the difficulty would stay until the end, and the battles grow bigger until the climax. And all this without any forced scripted events or spawning armies, etc... Simple and complex in the same time. Anyway, doesn't do much good to think about that now cause I really want to enjoy the mortal empire campaign.