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Thread: City Management Guide for EB2

  1. #21

    Default Re: City Management Guide for EB2

    Quote Originally Posted by Jurand of Cracow View Post
    Thank's Poppis and Myarta for your answers.I'll have a look at this while playing but I recall a suspicion that it's somehow hardcoded (and maybe residual from RTW engine). I don't know where (in which file) it could be modded to switch it on and off.
    I seem to recall that Grain was hard-coded to include a "population growth" effect in RTW, but that is not true in M2TW. It's a very easy test. Start up a Ptolemaioi campaign and look at the buildings in Hibis (pop 800). There's a farm with a 1% pop growth bonus and two income bonuses. That 1% growth is confirmed by the settlement details window. Don't change anything (keep the tax at "normal" which retains the full 1% pop growth) and hit end turn. On the next turn, the population is precisely 808, a 1% growth.

    Now go into descr_strat (row 641) and comment out the grain resource in this province. Save the change and launch a new Ptolemaioi campaign. Look at Hibis again and everything is the same except there's only one income bonus line from the farm (because the grain resource is now absent), but the pop growth is still 1%. Hit end turn again and the T2 population is again 808. So there's no pop growth bonus from grain, either hidden or visible. You can see the same effect even more dramatically by testing Alexandria (which has 3 grain resources), but the results will be exactly the same.

    @Quintus, @Kull - maybe it'd be useful to change the name in 2.4 as it confuses - I suppose - also the other players? Just a thought.
    There are three pips which show increases to the pop growth bar in the "settlement details" window:
    - "Improvements" (house icon with grain ear)
    - "Tax rate bonus" (bag of gold with green down arrow)
    - "Food Import" (bag of grain with wheat ear?)

    So I don't really see why "Food Import" would be more confusing than the others, especially since it uses the word "Food" in the context of "population growth".

    That said, the Granary building has two different description types, one of which refers to "Food Imports" while the other talks of "Food storage" which *could be* a bit of a disconnect.

    The bigger issue (to me anyway) is that the Granary uses the "population_health_bonus" and those percentages are misleading. The health bonus is given in pips in EDB, and appears on the "settlement details" screen as values of .5% per pip. Unfortunately, the building description shows each .5 percent as 5%, so (for example) the L1 Granary building says you are getting "Food Imports: 15%" when in reality you are getting a pop growth bonus of 1.5%.

    Equally odd (and probably related), "Food imports" (i.e. the Granary building, or more likely the "population_health_bonus" itself) also contributes public order benefits. You can see it visible on the positive side of the "Public Order" ledger, although the building itself does not grant public order benefits (easily verifiable in EDB). Increasing the strangeness of it all, there seems to be a 2-to-1 linkage between the number of health_bonus pips and the public order benefit. So 1 pip is 0% order bonus, 2 pips are 5%, 3 pips are 10% (rounding?), 4 pips are still 10%, 5 pips are STILL 10% (no rounding?) and 6 pips are 15% (math back on track).

    The whole thing makes my head hurt. :no:

    Edit: Worth noting that Gigantus and I ran some tests which proved that Grain DOES have a hard-coded farm income bonus (but not a large one), so you'll get farming income from a grain resource even if there isn't a farm in the province. Also saw the same hard-code income from 1 resource as from 3, so however it works, at least it doesn't tier.
    Last edited by Kull; October 21, 2017 at 06:22 PM.
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  2. #22

    Default Re: City Management Guide for EB2

    Quote Originally Posted by Kull View Post
    The bigger issue (to me anyway) is that the Granary uses the "population_health_bonus" and those percentages are misleading. The health bonus is given in pips in EDB, and appears on the "settlement details" screen as values of .5% per pip. Unfortunately, the building description shows each .5 percent as 5%, so (for example) the L1 Granary building says you are getting "Food Imports: 15%" when in reality you are getting a pop growth bonus of 1.5%.

    Equally odd (and probably related), "Food imports" (i.e. the Granary building, or more likely the "population_health_bonus" itself) also contributes public order benefits. You can see it visible on the positive side of the "Public Order" ledger, although the building itself does not grant public order benefits (easily verifiable in EDB). Increasing the strangeness of it all, there seems to be a 2-to-1 linkage between the number of health_bonus pips and the public order benefit. So 1 pip is 0% order bonus, 2 pips are 5%, 3 pips are 10% (rounding?), 4 pips are still 10%, 5 pips are STILL 10% (no rounding?) and 6 pips are 15% (math back on track).
    I don't see a problem. Food import is health and so is managed by the SPF_HEALTH and SOF_HEALTH in descr_settlement_mechanics.xml. SPF is set to 1.0 so one pip is 0.5% PG. SOF is set to 0.5 so one pip is half of 5% PO. Level 1 granary has 3 pips so 7.5% PO(rounded up to 10%). Level 2 granary has 5 pips so 12.5% PO(rounded down to 10%). Level 3 granary has 7 pips so 17.5% PO(rounded up to 20%).

    The percentages on the building card are of course misleading and I suppose hardcoded like so many other things in building/unit cards.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kull View Post
    Edit: Worth noting that Gigantus and I ran some tests which proved that Grain DOES have a hard-coded farm income bonus (but not a large one), so you'll get farming income from a grain resource even if there isn't a farm in the province. Also saw the same hard-code income from 1 resource as from 3, so however it works, at least it doesn't tier.
    Interesting, were these tests done on EB2 or some other mod? Do you have any more info on the specifics of the tests?
    Last edited by Poppis; October 22, 2017 at 02:59 AM.

  3. #23
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: City Management Guide for EB2

    Quote Originally Posted by Kull View Post
    There are three pips which show increases to the pop growth bar in the "settlement details" window:
    - "Improvements" (house icon with grain ear)
    - "Tax rate bonus" (bag of gold with green down arrow)
    - "Food Import" (bag of grain with wheat ear?)

    So I don't really see why "Food Import" would be more confusing than the others, especially since it uses the word "Food" in the context of "population growth".
    That said, the Granary building has two different description types, one of which refers to "Food Imports" while the other talks of "Food storage" which *could be* a bit of a disconnect.
    I think this is a situation "there're many ways to skin a cat". One may be perfectly fine with "Food Import". In my eyes, this value has nothing to do with the import from the other provinces, but with a feature of the province itself. I would prefer the expression "Food Surplus" (or "Grain Surplus") as it sounds to me more pertinent to the very province. But this is very much an issue of taste.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kull View Post
    I seem to recall that Grain was hard-coded to include a "population growth" effect in RTW, but that is not true in M2TW.

    Edit: Worth noting that Gigantus and I ran some tests which proved that Grain DOES have a hard-coded farm income bonus (but not a large one), so you'll get farming income from a grain resource even if there isn't a farm in the province.
    Quote Originally Posted by Poppis View Post
    Interesting, were these tests done on EB2 or some other mod? Do you have any more info on the specifics of the tests?
    I'd tried to look into this issue in SSHIP. The channel through additional growth appears there (and I believe it's also the M2TW vanilla style) is through an icon "Trade". I would suppose (but Kull correct me) that the EBII modded this thing into "Food surplus".

    In the modding (I believe) it's been long thought to be related to the grain resource. However, here is an example that it's neither (exclusively) related to grain nor to the existence of sea trade (what was also Gigantus' conclusion here).
    Anyway, I'm all at sea now on what makes for this growth factor. Actually, my question of switching-off-and-on (which Poppis has answered, thanks!) should have related not to grain, but the trade (aka Food import) issue. I don't know if it can be switched and I believe it's hardcoded in a murky way.

  4. #24

    Default Re: City Management Guide for EB2

    Quote Originally Posted by Jurand of Cracow View Post
    I'd tried to look into this issue in SSHIP. The channel through additional growth appears there (and I believe it's also the M2TW vanilla style) is through an icon "Trade". I would suppose (but Kull correct me) that the EBII modded this thing into "Food surplus".
    In the modding (I believe) it's been long thought to be related to the grain resource. However, here is an example that it's neither (exclusively) related to grain nor to the existence of sea trade (what was also Gigantus' conclusion here).
    Anyway, I'm all at sea now on what makes for this growth factor. Actually, my question of switching-off-and-on (which Poppis has answered, thanks!) should have related not to grain, but the trade (aka Food import) issue. I don't know if it can be switched and I believe it's hardcoded in a murky way.
    So you're talking about trade increasing pop growth. This would be managed by the SPF_TRADE factor in descr_settlement_mechanics.xml. In EB2 this is disabled(set to 0.0) and so trade won't affect pop growth in EB2. Since this is irrelevant in EB2 I have not tested it at all and so don't know anything about how it would work.

  5. #25
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: City Management Guide for EB2

    Quote Originally Posted by Poppis View Post
    So you're talking about trade increasing pop growth. This would be managed by the SPF_TRADE factor in descr_settlement_mechanics.xml. In EB2 this is disabled(set to 0.0) and so trade won't affect pop growth in EB2. Since this is irrelevant in EB2 I have not tested it at all and so don't know anything about how it would work.
    Ok, thanks, I've forgotten about this one . My takeaway from this discussion is that grain has no hardcoded on population growth, but - according to Gigantus and Kull - some hardcoded impact on income.

    However, I still have this question: how does the mechanics for differentiating fertile provinces work? How it's ensured that provinces in Egypt or on the Spanish coast are more fertile than in the northern Europe or deep in the dry land of inner Persia?
    Last edited by Jurand of Cracow; October 22, 2017 at 06:24 AM.

  6. #26

    Default Re: City Management Guide for EB2

    I don't have the vanilla game files but I would assume it's done using the base farming level in descr_regions.txt. In EB2 this is set to 1 for all provinces but I would guess that in the base game some provinces will have higher base farming level, thus giving more income and pop growth.

  7. #27
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: City Management Guide for EB2

    That's right - in the SSHIP it varies between 1 and 20. But how it's achieved in the EBII ?

  8. #28

    Default Re: City Management Guide for EB2

    Well there is no difference, except that provinces with grain get a small bonus from farms. This is done in the EDB file.

  9. #29

    Default Re: City Management Guide for EB2

    Quote Originally Posted by Poppis View Post
    The percentages on the building card are of course misleading and I suppose hardcoded like so many other things in building/unit cards.
    Besides the rounding problems (7.5 rounds up while 12.5 rounds down.....completely illogical), you have one bonus that provides two benefits in two different percentages yet only mentions one. So kind of a rat's nest. We'll have to look at that.

    Interesting, were these tests done on EB2 or some other mod? Do you have any more info on the specifics of the tests?
    It was an EB2 test on Farm bonuses, but I wasn't able to replicate the results. Apparently there's a base level of agricultural income present in every province (or at least those I looked at) and you don't need farms to get it. Nor grain either, apparently (looking back at my earlier tests, all the provinces had grain, and I just assumed the non-farm agri income came from the resource, not some base level given to all land). Anyway it's good to know there isn't any hardcoded effect from grain.
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  10. #30

    Default Re: City Management Guide for EB2

    I am morally certain that the distance from capital penalty to public order can go higher than 25. Right now in a Malkuta Nabatu campaign, Mleiha's penalty for distance is -35% (from the default capital, at least as of right now). To be honest, I am unsure, but perhaps the cap is different for certain factions. It would make sense that desert nomads would be worse at micromanaging their distant settlements than Rome, for example.

  11. #31

    Default Re: City Management Guide for EB2

    Quote Originally Posted by rhavviepoodle View Post
    I am morally certain that the distance from capital penalty to public order can go higher than 25. Right now in a Malkuta Nabatu campaign, Mleiha's penalty for distance is -35% (from the default capital, at least as of right now). To be honest, I am unsure, but perhaps the cap is different for certain factions. It would make sense that desert nomads would be worse at micromanaging their distant settlements than Rome, for example.
    The cap is lower in camps than towns. As in distance matters less in camps. Mleiha is a town, so suffers the full penalty up to the cap.

  12. #32

    Default Re: City Management Guide for EB2

    Quote Originally Posted by rhavviepoodle View Post
    I am morally certain that the distance from capital penalty to public order can go higher than 25. Right now in a Malkuta Nabatu campaign, Mleiha's penalty for distance is -35% (from the default capital, at least as of right now). To be honest, I am unsure, but perhaps the cap is different for certain factions. It would make sense that desert nomads would be worse at micromanaging their distant settlements than Rome, for example.
    Quote Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius View Post
    The cap is lower in camps than towns. As in distance matters less in camps. Mleiha is a town, so suffers the full penalty up to the cap.
    Oh wow, yeah the distance to capital section is completely wrong. I tested it in some previous patch and simply forgot to double check it before posting the guide, haha. Seems like the max distance penalty is at least 60%(although I only tested on campaign start where the longest possible distance is from seleukid empire). And yeah the distance penalty differs in camps, which I haven't included in the guide yet. Thanks for pointing it out.
    Last edited by Poppis; October 27, 2017 at 02:19 AM.

  13. #33
    Raiuga's Avatar Civis
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    Default Re: City Management Guide for EB2

    Quote Originally Posted by Kull View Post
    Besides the rounding problems (7.5 rounds up while 12.5 rounds down.....completely illogical)
    Not telling this is what's going on, but statistically those approximations are logical. When you round a ".5" number you should always tend go for an even number because its always better to work in dividing operations. The general rule is to always round up, but it's technically wrong.

  14. #34

    Default Re: City Management Guide for EB2

    I really think guides like these should be integrated in the players guide possibly as an addendum (and not kept as a random forum thread). The complexity of EB2 turns new players off a bit - I tell from my own current experience. I am still looking for some guide (like this one) about proper government building: the player guide is good as a reference, but for someone who just started, it is not meaningful. I hope the developers/contributors don't expect casual gamers to glance through the zillion forum pages for such basic information.

    Ow, and it is great to see that the EB project is still alive. I remember playing it more than 10 years ago!! Incredible work people!

  15. #35
    CanOmer's Avatar Centenarius
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    Default Re: City Management Guide for EB2

    Thanks for the info. I edited colors of unrest map for simplicity.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    My Submods For Europa Barbarorum II Clean Campaign Mini Map for EB 2.3 ;

  16. #36

    Default Re: City Management Guide for EB2

    Just out of interest, which mod file defines the base unrest for each settlement/region?

  17. #37

    Default Re: City Management Guide for EB2

    Quote Originally Posted by CanOmer View Post
    Thanks for the info. I edited colors of unrest map for simplicity.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Thanks, will probably add this in at some point.

    Quote Originally Posted by SilverTiger View Post
    Just out of interest, which mod file defines the base unrest for each settlement/region?
    descr_rebel_factions.txt in data folder.

    It's the "chance" under each rebel type.

  18. #38

    Default Re: City Management Guide for EB2

    Many thanks for taking the time to write this valuable post, I bookmarked it for further reference.
    BTW the simplified unrest map colors really helped.

  19. #39

    Icon14 Re: City Management Guide for EB2

    A big thank you for this topic. This REALLY helps me understanding some basic things about income, especially concerning trade.

    Quote Originally Posted by davorj View Post
    I really think guides like these should be integrated in the players guide possibly as an addendum (and not kept as a random forum thread). The complexity of EB2 turns new players off a bit - I tell from my own current experience. I am still looking for some guide (like this one) about proper government building: the player guide is good as a reference, but for someone who just started, it is not meaningful. I hope the developers/contributors don't expect casual gamers to glance through the zillion forum pages for such basic information.

    Ow, and it is great to see that the EB project is still alive. I remember playing it more than 10 years ago!! Incredible work people!
    I will join davorj statement. This guide is very important.

    Thx again to all modders. Great project.

  20. #40
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: City Management Guide for EB2

    Quote Originally Posted by JC_von_Preussen View Post
    A big thank you for this topic. This REALLY helps me understanding some basic things about income, especially concerning trade.
    I will join davorj statement. This guide is very important.
    Thx again to all modders. Great project.
    I also join this suggestion, I'd read it with interest in the past.
    I would also ask to update it if there're changes that could be learned while reading various threads of the EBII.

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