The TW series is dead. Everything after Medieval II sucks!

[PikeStance]

I mean, don't get me wrong, there are plenty of mechanics that I feel have been downgraded, and there are plenty of things I think could be improved, but from a business sense, CA is doing better than ever.


To be perfectly honest, though, I feel like in terms of realism, the peak of the series is DEI for Rome II. While it's true that the newer titles are harder to do large, total conversion overhauls, modding hasn't really died down that much. Warhammer has an impressively large and active modding community, it's just that it's all on Steam Workshop instead of here.


I agree with whoever it was in this thread that said Total War isn't dying, but Total War Center is. Between Reddit and Steam Workshop, this sort of modding forum just isn't super relevant to people anymore.

I was actually agreeing with you and I am still am. Total War is doing great. It is this site that is not.

[Gaius Baltar]

Total War is doing great. It is this site that is not.

I took at look at Totalwar.org and they only had 112 users online, and that was 6 members. It seems like the the decline is universal.

[Aexodus]

I think the decline is universal within forum such as TWC and org. The official forums and Reddit is where everyone is. And steam, moddb etc

[Daruwind]

Because devs are there? CA stopped posting here a long time ago just because overall toxicity. And I cannot blame them. Hell even I´m every month called a PGI emloyee or fanboy just because I´m enjoying the game(s) and trying to keep info up to date. (Mainly because here i can at least find something...using reddit for digging info is hell for me..)

[Abdülmecid I]

CA is active only in reddit, even the official forums have been gradually abandoned. I have seen this theory of CA getting driven out of TWC due to the prevalent toxicity, but never has any evidence been provided. In fact, CA representatives slowly moved away from the forum, when Attila was released, a game that was received very positively (similar to Warhammer) from the site's membership. Ironically enough, I would say that Attila enjoys a better reputation here than anywhere else, including the notoriously biased reddit. Sorry if I sound a bit harsh, Daruwind, but I suspect that unsupported accusations like these only add fuel to the fire. It makes the atmosphere very tense, because it essentially encourages people to feel guilty over their opinions ("You destroyed the forum, because you disliked the game!"). From my experience here and in the official forums, the fragmentation of the communities began, when one side attacked the other personally, instead of addressing the arguments presented. The discussion is poisoned and the situation denigrates indefinitely. The comparisons between Rome I and II are a classical example of what I'm trying to demonstrate, where people daring to prefer the former, were referred as delusional nostalgics, whose opinion was objectively wrong...

On the other hand, the "Steam" reasoning seems much more credible, being reinforced by hard data. The modding scene of newer games barely survives and, actually, in every new release, it can be noted that the early large traffic dies even quicker. I guess Steam is much more convenient for uploading small modifications, following the increasingly limited moddability of the more recent games. Add to that the growing popularity of social media and it becomes obvious that demonizing your debating opponent is not only unproductive, but also inaccurate.

[Daruwind]

I admit I have no overall proof and probably my memory of good old days is more positive than it was. Still the overall toxicity here is somewhat present. And as big TW fan I also from time to time cannot hold back and engage such fruitless conversations. That´s sadly true... However I have feeling that almost in any forum section for active TW the arguments are very much the same. "Cut content, cutting features, it is not what I want, not empire 2, not med 3, rome 2 still broken, magic and monsters and uber heroes for kids..." How to express it. We here are like the hardcore players. Using mods, tinkering, playing to the fullest. But many are waiting for sales or even boycotting the games. It is not even strange CA is not caring about us so much. Just read thread about ToB, Rome2 DLC, Wh dlcs... I would like just to see some positivity. Hell we are even in thread about TW dying out ...So my previous post from little frustration. I just read in Attile thread about how med 2 and rome1 were awesome and while response from FrozenmenSS added some positivity. It is like some people are frozen in time. They surely has the right even can have such opinion. I just had feeling that majority people here think similar so I´m little weird.. ( http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...1#post15571986 it is just illustration ,no personal attack here :-) but i could easily found many others posts which are clearly negativ. And my memorey is it started after Rome 2 launch. Was it really better before R2 launch?)

For record, I own all TWs so far, enjoyed all of them, some more some less. Loving them all for being little different. Just want every TW to be little different,epxlore different aspects. I can imagine the perfect TW for me, but it won´t be perfect one for others and CA probably won´t ever manage to produce such piece for everybody. That´s just hard truth. Still there is a lot things to improve,update. :-) With all problems I consider Attila to be one of the best TW so far but even that is not the perfect one for obvious reasons..

Think another problem is little higher tempo of content being released now. Right now we have R2 DLCs, ToB on the way, 3K, Wh2 DLCs.....before there long windows between titles with just a few expansions. It gave even more time to modders and games were more modable. I cannot even imagine how Radious and others are managing now to pace with current releasing tempo. It is murderous!

When last week we got finally first bit of info for WH2..with giant slayers. It was just time of pure joy. Reddit burstrd out, here almost nobody noticed....that´s why I´m sad.

EDIT: sry it is little un-connected or even chaotic...

[LestaT]

I took at look at Totalwar.org and they only had 112 users online, and that was 6 members. It seems like the the decline is universal.

Official forum and reddit is pretty much alive. So is FB and Twitter and Discord for that matter.

[PikeStance]

The toxicity was always worse and more harmful when directed at those who liked the game and those that dislike the game. Between CA and Paradox, Paradox does a much better job of public relations than CA. They produce detailed developer's diaries and I receive a ton of twitter announcement highlighting players feeds. CA has been doing an unexpectedly good job of promoting Thrones of Britannia. I have to give them credit for that. Paradox's promo videos leave something to desire as they are often long-winded and exhausting watch. It is funny when they actually criticize the "Let's Play" for being just that (although I am actually referring to produce tutorials produced generally by the same group).

TWC lost its position has the place to go for Total War content. The apex of their involvement was Rome II, but by the time Attila was being released their interest was already waning.

I think a popular myth is moddability of the games. There is still a great deal that can be changed. I do not adhere to the notion that you have to be able to change the map in order for it to be moddable. It does take more effort to mod and if you are willing to learn, scripting offers a lot of options to use. I do not see fewer mods per se, I see fewer mods being presented on this forum. Since this site has always relied on mods to bring people in, this is a huge problem. Steam offers ease and a convenient location to "host" mods, but TWC has never been about hosting. THis is why I do not buy into the social media argument. Although to be honest the social media aspect of the site has been declining just as rapidly as well. The formula is known; it is a question of using it and hoping it isn't too late to make a difference.

[Dumanthis]

[Basileos Leandros I]

Shogun 2 was a fantastic game, very well done and with great replayability.

Napoleon TW as well, so was Attila TW.

Yes, M2 was very well done and an amazing game overall, but the TW series had produced very good games after too!

[Totalheadache]

I voted no.2! Toxicity....seriously are we 12 yrs old around here? Maybe am an ol fart but this type of chat seems rather mundane.

I am not paying full price until theres a new engine because am fed up of recurring optimisation issues. Also I dont like the current dlc policy.

Some changes have been good in re Warhammer etc but then I see changes re Thrones which is essentially an Atilla reskin lets be honest but then getting rid of other features arguably "dumbing" down the series even more. So as an intellectual I am "meh" but olk I might pick up at half price.

p.s if anything its the blatant spamming of certain people on here "praising" the titles that is more off putting to most. We have better things to do with our time than answer drivel.

[NostalgiaFan]

CA is active only in reddit, even the official forums have been gradually abandoned. I have seen this theory of CA getting driven out of TWC due to the prevalent toxicity, but never has any evidence been provided. In fact, CA representatives slowly moved away from the forum, when Attila was released, a game that was received very positively (similar to Warhammer) from the site's membership. Ironically enough, I would say that Attila enjoys a better reputation here than anywhere else, including the notoriously biased reddit. Sorry if I sound a bit harsh, Daruwind, but I suspect that unsupported accusations like these only add fuel to the fire. It makes the atmosphere very tense, because it essentially encourages people to feel guilty over their opinions ("You destroyed the forum, because you disliked the game!"). From my experience here and in the official forums, the fragmentation of the communities began, when one side attacked the other personally, instead of addressing the arguments presented. The discussion is poisoned and the situation denigrates indefinitely. The comparisons between Rome I and II are a classical example of what I'm trying to demonstrate, where people daring to prefer the former, were referred as delusional nostalgics, whose opinion was objectively wrong...

On the other hand, the "Steam" reasoning seems much more credible, being reinforced by hard data. The modding scene of newer games barely survives and, actually, in every new release, it can be noted that the early large traffic dies even quicker. I guess Steam is much more convenient for uploading small modifications, following the increasingly limited moddability of the more recent games. Add to that the growing popularity of social media and it becomes obvious that demonizing your debating opponent is not only unproductive, but also inaccurate.

Finally someone stating the truth. TWcenter started getting bad because the idiots who were acting as CAs defense force over Rome 2's disastrous launch went out of their way to attack anyone that said so and arrogantly put them down for their views while hypocritically acting like they were victims. It was a colossal show and the morons will continue to act to this day as if they were in the right when they were apart of what really started problems in the community, not only here, but elsewhere.

Only reason why people would even say Reddit is less toxic is more because it thumbs down opposing opinions and gets rid of them. Last I remember we don't call that a forum, we call that an echo chamber.

Of course the apologists don't like hearing the truth.

[PikeStance]

A somewhat ironic post. The problem wasn't that people had a difference of opinion, it is that too many are intolerant of those who opinions differ.

Personally, people can like or dislike reddit if they please. Personally, I never found it to be much better than facebook or youtube comment sections. Then again, since the 90s, the quality of discussion has descended. People seem to have forgotten on how to deal with trolls or flamers (which is what we originally called these people).

[NostalgiaFan]

A somewhat ironic post.

Name even one reason why.

The problem wasn't that people had a difference of opinion, it is that too many are intolerant of those who opinions differ.

Wrong fanboys were screaming at others to stop criticizing CA and acted like victims whenever the opposing side countered their points.

Personally, people can like or dislike reddit if they please. Personally, I never found it to be much better than facebook or youtube comment sections. Then again, since the 90s, the quality of discussion has descended.

Doubt it.

People seem to have forgotten on how to deal with trolls or flamers (which is what we originally called these people).

I already knew about the term trolls dude, it's not like its that old.

And how did you deal with them? Ban them? Because I sure don't remember there being any real big difference from what I heard. And it seems you are acting as if the other side was full of just Trolls and Flamers when it was really people who were worried and then proven right by Rome 2"s release and hardcore fanboys and apologists that could not handle any kind of criticism at all.

[PikeStance]

Name even one reason why.

I have read some of your other posts even the one's deleted and there is nothing tolerant of other views in them.

Wrong fanboys were screaming at others to stop criticizing CA and acted like victims whenever the opposing side countered their points.

Referring to anyone who likes TW games as "fanboys" doesn't make your argument stronger; it just makes your POV less tolerant of others. In another post, you refer to people as "morons."

... Rome 2's disastrous launch went out of their way to attack anyone that said so and arrogantly put them down for their views while hypocritically acting like they were victims. It was a colossal show and the morons will continue to act to this day as if they were in the right.....Of course the apologists don't like hearing the truth.

It begs the question; why are you even bringing it up here. There has been no such discussion here. I have observed that you seem to be the most aggressive towards those that disagree with you.

I already knew about the term trolls dude, it's not like its that old.

And how did you deal with them? Ban them? Because I sure don't remember there being any real big difference from what I heard. And it seems you are acting as if the other side was full of just Trolls and Flamers when it was really people who were worried and then proven right by Rome 2"s release and hardcore fanboys and apologists that could not handle any kind of criticism at all.

Everyone has heard the term troll. If I am talking about its use in the 90s, it is a bit obvious that you would.

The original term was "flamers" Later people said, "do not feed the female (adding fuel to the fire). Later the term Troll became vogue. "Not feeding the troll" became the advice of the day. The best action to take with a troll is to ignore them. They want attention is their goal is to rile people up. If that doesn't happen, they get bored really fast. This is of course back in the day before broadband and AOL was the number one provider of the internet. There were a lot fewer people and communities tended to be smaller and more manageable.

More to the point: I am not defending any sides. If anything, I am criticising anyone who is intolerant of an opposing view. Calling anyone a "moron," a "fanboy," a "hater," or even an "apologist" is an ad hom and is attacking the messenger and not the message.

There are no such things as "truth." There are facts and opinions based on facts. Of course, this may be the very root between those that discuss the acceptability of a game.
For example, you like agents for their game-play. I do not like them. I find agents inclusions to be ahistorical. You may feel differently. Agents or no agents. There is no truth. A historically based game may if they wish to add arcade aspects if they feel it adds interesting playing style. You could also, historically, these agents did exist, and thus historical. As you can see I can make an argument either way. Even if it executed ahistorically, it may very well be another way of increasing the gameplay difficulty. It is a matter of taste, not the truth.

[NostalgiaFan]

I have read some of your other posts even the one's deleted and there is nothing tolerant of other views in them.

And If you have not read any of those said posters comments I have responded to they come up as the same narcissistic pompous defense force I have already talked about.

Referring to anyone who likes TW games as "fanboys" doesn't make your argument stronger; it just makes your POV less tolerant of others. In another post, you refer to people as "morons."

I refer to those who trashed and disrespected others as Fanboys and Morons because that's how they acted way back in Rome 2's release and many of them continue to be by just acting snarky and pompous to sneak their way through with out getting hit by the mods. Many of them talked down and berated anyone for not looking past it's flaws and today I see plenty of those continue to act like snobs. I would not care to respond to others just saying they liked it and nothing else, I refer to those who love to act holler then thou and pretend those who criticize CA are toxic when it was their attitude that helped cause discussion to get so bad.

I simply prefer to not beat around the bush and just be upfront with my views.

It begs the question; why are you even bringing it up here. There has been no such discussion here. I have observed that you seem to be the most aggressive towards those that disagree with you.

Now you are just pretending it does not happen since we constantly see others like Daruwind doing exactly as I said, acting all pompous to others who dare to criticize CA's faults. He does this all the time and to put it lightly, it gets beyond annoying. Besides my reply to Abdülmecid was to his post on how this site lost traffic which was not due to "haters" but instead more from it's defenders wanting to shut down others view points.

SNIP

I knew about Flamers as well due, I am in no need for a history lesson.

More to the point: I am not defending any sides. If anything, I am criticising anyone who is intolerant of an opposing view. Calling anyone a "moron," a "fanboy," a "hater," or even an "apologist" is an ad hom and is attacking the messenger and not the message.

Really because you have been really getting really busy constantly responding others post that have criticism of some of CA's more recent changes even if you alone are not targeted. Enough to make your first point seem moot.

There are no such things as "truth." There are facts and opinions based on facts. Of course, this may be the very root between those that discuss the acceptability of a game.

Oh please spare me this overly philosophical point about truth and stuff about the nature of the universe, it's way out of hand for a discussion on video games.

For example, you like agents for their game-play. I do not like them. I find agents inclusions to be ahistorical.

How about you keep topics from another thread, in the other thread? it's kinda annoying having to respond to the same thing in two different threads.

[PikeStance]

And If you have not read any of those said posters comments I have responded to they come up as the same narcissistic pompous defense force I have already talked about.

I refer to those who trashed and disrespected others as Fanboys and Morons because that's how they acted way back in Rome 2's release and many of them continue to be by just acting snarky and pompous to sneak their way through with out getting hit by the mods. Many of them talked down and berated anyone for not looking past it's flaws and today I see plenty of those continue to act like snobs. I would not care to respond to others just saying they liked it and nothing else, I refer to those who love to act holler then thou and pretend those who criticize CA are toxic when it was their attitude that helped cause discussion to get so bad.

I simply prefer to not beat around the bush and just be upfront with my views.

Now you are just pretending it does not happen since we constantly see others like Daruwind doing exactly as I said, acting all pompous to others who dare to criticize CA's faults. He does this all the time and to put it lightly, it gets beyond annoying. Besides my reply to Abdülmecid was to his post on how this site lost traffic which was not due to "haters" but instead more from it's defenders wanting to shut down others view points.

The only toxic posts that I am reading is yours.

Really because you have been really getting really busy constantly responding others post that have criticism of some of CA's more recent changes even if you alone are not targeted. Enough to make your first point seem moot.

People who disagree with me do not bother me. It is what it is.

Oh please spare me this overly philosophical point about truth and stuff about the nature of the universe, it's way out of hand for a discussion on video games.

This is hope for optimism.

[Totalheadache]

Seriously can you take this "toxic" crap back to kindergarten or reddit from whence it came. Above is a classic example of how people try and paint someones argument is some kind juvenile term because they dont like what they are saying.

I'm with you nostalgia fan you hit the nail on the head.

p.s we all know reddit and the official forum is a waste of time. Well anyone with any kind of brain does. And thats funny truth is mentioned because the "truth will always come out". Thats what we are seeing with the series...more and more people are seeing the series and CA for what they really are.

Take a look at youtube comments re Thrones...a lot of people are on the fence. I personally dont think it will be a bad title per say but am not convinced and will wait for reviews and also whether it will come with "locked" factions or cut content. I still want to play warhammer 2 so maybe xmas sale! I am a patient man I can wait.

At least CA did listen to our ideas about settlements and making them more realistic.

On a side note I recently played Atilla and it still suffers from the siege lag (i.e blobbing at gates) so yep new engine needed! I said years ago and will keep saying it. Thank God people are starting to listen to me.

[Daruwind]

Now that´s funny because you have wrong person. I never said Rome 2 is without problems or that launch was perfect. All I´m standing for is, that after 4 years R2 is not the such failure and with recent DLCs it is objectively better than a year ago. Because if the Rome 2 would be still so unplayable, why is it one of biggest still active playerbase? Good mods? But then the game is probably not so mod limited if people are enjoying mods... I´m enjoying the game and like new content but that are all my faults.

Reddit and official forum are not waste of time, at least there is some new info to be found and good discussion from time to time. At least people trying to read the threads with news and speculation about future content would know what I´m reposting and linking here..

Is TW going downhill? With 3k, ToB, new R2 content, new WH2 content....it is more like golden age according to CA. Is TWC going downhill? According to activity it is probably not golden age of TWC right now...

But with so many people openly boycoting bying new game, waiting for sales or at least year after release...why should CA caretake to such community at all? Don´t get me wrong, we are all free to buy whatever and whenever we want. But that´s not what is keeping TW running. Actually our small hardcore group is more likely pretty small minority for CA in terms of money. I hope that once we will get even the new revolutionary engine, complete list of all possible features and basically Med 3. I just hear you are waiting for Witcher 3 - one in generation game. Does it make Witcher 1+2, Skyrim, Oblivion, Morrowind, Gothic 1+2, Pillars of Eternity, Dark Souls....bad games?

Now excuse me, i have to finish some unfinished business in WH1 before Norsca hits in WH2.

[Anna_Gein]

It is true TWC is in decline. So are other forums on TW. Even the official one is not impressive. I think part of it is due to the toxicity we find in TW related forums but not the one we usually have in mind (aka the one directed on CA).

Imho the real toxicity is between users. There is so much personal attacks and posts devaluating each other opinions. It creates a terrible mood. Abdülmecid I gave some examples earlier. An other issue is when some people are denigrating the community overall feelings with sentences such as "you are right but it makes senses from a business point of view". It is toxic as it essentially says we, the fanbase, are of no importance and we have no value. Once such sentences are made, what is the point of even discussing ? Lastly are posts overtly aggressive such as the recent exchange in the Thrones of Britannia thread. I doubt any of us go on forums to be verbally assaulted or see it happens on someone else.

In all fairness people critical of CA and the TW franchise have been the most targeted such behaviors. That said there is no doubt it goes both way and no matter who does it, it drags down the entire community.

There are others issues that explains the current mood on TW forums and social media. What I said in this post the most prevalent issue right now. These are things we can correct as a community.

Is TW going downhill? With 3k, ToB, new R2 content, new WH2 content....it is more like golden age according to CA. Is TWC going downhill? According to activity it is probably not golden age of TWC right now...

But with so many people openly boycoting bying new game, waiting for sales or at least year after release...why should CA caretake to such community at all? Don´t get me wrong, we are all free to buy whatever and whenever we want. But that´s not what is keeping TW running. Actually our small hardcore group is more likely pretty small minority for CA in terms of money. I hope that once we will get even the new revolutionary engine, complete list of all possible features and basically Med 3. I just hear you are waiting for Witcher 3 - one in generation game. Does it make Witcher 1+2, Skyrim, Oblivion, Morrowind, Gothic 1+2, Pillars of Eternity, Dark Souls....bad games?

This is a good compilation of the toxicity I am talking about :

1) Blame people expressing different opinions and try to make them guilty
2) Denigrate our entire community by suggesting we are a small bunch of worthless people instead of the TW community and fanbase.
3) Advance a "business first argument" to make it sound like our opinions express here are totally irrelevant for TW.

Ironically you make a conclusion to state the recent games are wonderful but you use a CGI trailer instead of actual gaming content. I think our community should spend more time talking about the actual game. (this is especially directed to people happy with the recent titles.