View Poll Results: Do you feel the TW series has gone downhill since Medieval II?

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  • Yes! All the newer Total War games suck!

    43 19.72%
  • Yes. I like some of the newer games but the older games were better

    109 50.00%
  • No. The new games are just fine.

    58 26.61%
  • I love Failhammer. I'll buy whatever CA does regardless

    8 3.67%
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Thread: The TW series is dead. Everything after Medieval II sucks!

  1. #281
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: The TW series is dead. Everything after Medieval II sucks!

    @Gustav Mahler: I agree with your opinions:
    ".. Rome and Medieval 2 are great even now in 2018.
    ... ETW.. game might have been the most complex of all TW games if creators had more time but since business and money are prevalent it came unpolished and unfinished. Still its huge potential is visible even in aforementioned broken state. Again call mods to help. But one thing cannot be helped despite advanced modder's effort - criminally stupid AI.
    .. Total War isn't dead, it just changed direction towards broader audience in order to be competitive in the money earning market. They are governed by the firm, by the corporation, by the money"

    However, I couldn't stand the ETW in any form, even with DarthVader fixing of what could have been salvage. The ETW is the first broken game and from then the development went downhill. It was the greatest promise and the greatest disappointment.

    I had expected the CA to make the new game in the Renaissance period and I still hope we'll get one around year 2021.

    @_Total_War_ - you might be interested in some opinions about Thrones.

  2. #282

    Default Re: The TW series is dead. Everything after Medieval II sucks!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jurand of Cracow View Post
    @Gustav Mahler: I agree with your opinions:
    ".. Rome and Medieval 2 are great even now in 2018.
    ... ETW.. game might have been the most complex of all TW games if creators had more time but since business and money are prevalent it came unpolished and unfinished. Still its huge potential is visible even in aforementioned broken state. Again call mods to help. But one thing cannot be helped despite advanced modder's effort - criminally stupid AI.
    .. Total War isn't dead, it just changed direction towards broader audience in order to be competitive in the money earning market. They are governed by the firm, by the corporation, by the money"

    However, I couldn't stand the ETW in any form, even with DarthVader fixing of what could have been salvage. The ETW is the first broken game and from then the development went downhill. It was the greatest promise and the greatest disappointment.

    I had expected the CA to make the new game in the Renaissance period and I still hope we'll get one around year 2021.

    @_Total_War_ - you might be interested in some opinions about Thrones.
    Jurand my primary subject of interest is 16th and 17th century, to be more exact years 1500-1660, i.e. pike and shot era. I downloaded all the mods made in that period for Medieval 1 (Pike and Musket mod), Rome 1 (Ogniem i mieczem 1), Medieval 2 (Age of Conquest, OiM 2, 1648, The Italian Wars) and for the ETW (unfinished 1600 Colonialism). I saw you on various sub threads of the forum. Glad to find one more aficionado of pike and shot.

  3. #283
    Evan MF's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: The TW series is dead. Everything after Medieval II sucks!

    Total War games have long become games of which the idea of playing them is far more exciting than actually playing them, and significantly so as time as gone on. I didn't have such a feeling with earlier titles, when successive titles resulted in major engine innovations and gameplay advances. Nowadays every title essentially feels like a reskin of the previous and hasn't significantly changed or improved the core gameplay (battles especially).
    Last edited by Evan MF; October 27, 2018 at 04:55 PM.

  4. #284
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    Default Re: The TW series is dead. Everything after Medieval II sucks!

    I can see where that impression can be seen.

    They came out with M2TW, the ETW (new engine) NTW an improvement, and then Shogun with different gameplay and two popular expansion DLCs. Then came, R2TW, a couple of expansion on either side of the history, then Attila, almost a standalone DLC to R2TW, the ToB. It all feels the same. 3K is a break from that at least.
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  5. #285
    Evan MF's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: The TW series is dead. Everything after Medieval II sucks!

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    I can see where that impression can be seen.

    They came out with M2TW, the ETW (new engine) NTW an improvement, and then Shogun with different gameplay and two popular expansion DLCs. Then came, R2TW, a couple of expansion on either side of the history, then Attila, almost a standalone DLC to R2TW, the ToB. It all feels the same. 3K is a break from that at least.
    There are pretty deep 'strains' of stagnation that run through the series way back, even further than you describe. For me, being stuck with the same 20-unit army arrangement, with, essentially, the same set of crude tools to control them and roughly the same limited scale and scope of battles (pretty much the same combatant numbers per battle in all titles since Rome 1) is one of them. I always saw the 20 unit-army formula as a basis on which to build a better army simulation, but CA apparently consider it a central part of Total War's character and don't seem to have the appetite to develop it - more or less signalling that they're settled on the matter and intend to reproduce it continually with a new skin here, a new theme there rather than innovate. Those of us who got into Total War all those years ago when it was fresh and believed it was but a stage in a larger project to create an increasingly authentic/realistic (but still enjoyable) battle simulator with each iteration have had our hopes dashed.

    Another such 'strain' that exhibits the same trend is the combatant mechanics, which I would argue have actually deteriorated, let alone stagnated, since Medieval 2. Ever since mocap animations and the new warscape engine were introduced with Empire, the behaviour of combatants both as a unit and also as individual agents has never felt right. A combination of a loss of fluidity in the deformation of a unit when interacting with another unit (e.g. in a charge-impact or a prolonged melee) and the loss of a sense of mass to individual combatants when interacting with each other has been the consequence. To this day there is nothing more satisfying in the series than a heavy cavalry charge in Medieval 2 or more tangible than the natural, granular deformation of infantry battle lines of Rome 1, I would argue.

    I don't see 3K breaking any new ground in these terms and so have little optimism for it.
    Last edited by Evan MF; October 28, 2018 at 06:09 AM.

  6. #286

    Default Re: The TW series is dead. Everything after Medieval II sucks!

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    I can see where that impression can be seen.

    They came out with M2TW, the ETW (new engine) NTW an improvement, and then Shogun with different gameplay and two popular expansion DLCs. Then came, R2TW, a couple of expansion on either side of the history, then Attila, almost a standalone DLC to R2TW, the ToB. It all feels the same. 3K is a break from that at least.
    Empire Total War is the Total War game I usually play most because 18th century warfare is my favourite of all Total War historical titles but still I can't find a computer than can run it smoothly (campaign map and battle maps). I don't know if I am the only one complaining about this: I don't like the AI, even on expert, AI usually sends their units in frontal attacks in a melee suicide, in the most disorganized way possible, half of the units don't fire in line formations but in weird positions. This leads to an uncomfortable chaos that does not correspond to the warfare of this historical period.

    As for Thrones of Britannia, I've never played it because I don't have enough computer to play this Total War title but I have a question: how different is this game compared to Attila Total War? I have seen gameplays and both games look very similar so I don't know if worths investing in a computer to play Thrones of Britannia considering the lack of historical battles, one of my favourite features in all Total War games.

  7. #287
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    Default Re: The TW series is dead. Everything after Medieval II sucks!

    Quote Originally Posted by Evan MF View Post
    There are pretty deep 'strains' of stagnation that run through the series way back, even further than you describe. For me, being stuck with the same 20-unit army arrangement, with, essentially, the same set of crude tools to control them and roughly the same limited scale and scope of battles (pretty much the same combatant numbers per battle in all titles since Rome 1) is one of them. I always saw the 20 unit-army formula as a basis on which to build a better army simulation, but CA apparently consider it a central part of Total War's character and don't seem to have the appetite to develop it - more or less signalling that they're settled on the matter and intend to reproduce it continually with a new skin here, a new theme there rather than innovate. Those of us who got into Total War all those years ago when it was fresh and believed it was but a stage in a larger project to create an increasingly authentic/realistic (but still enjoyable) battle simulator with each iteration have had our hopes dashed.

    I don't see 3K breaking any new ground in these terms and so have little optimism for it.
    Yup. But I can still see CA experimenting with stuff over time. In Empire we have hard limit for 20 units on battlefiedl, reinforcement are coming one by one as units are fleeing battlefield which is very primitive. With Shogun 2 the second army is entering field as one. Plus we got the naval combat. In Rome 2 we got combined operations with beach landings which are supercool for me.

    I can see a few reasons like controlling large armies. I can do with 40 units but having 60-100? It would need some multistage battles or multifronts. Smaller army groups engaging at different places probably not at the same time so you can manually control them. And probably influence each other... Then there is also issue that we have the same number of models in army but much more detailed. Plus if you look in Warhammer 2, there is the Laboratory mode where we can experiment with numbers...there are some screenshots back in this thread with two armies with almost 100K models...So we will sooner or later see some changes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Incendio View Post
    Empire Total War is the Total War game I usually play most because 18th century warfare is my favourite of all Total War historical titles but still I can't find a computer than can run it smoothly (campaign map and battle maps). I don't know if I am the only one complaining about this: I don't like the AI, even on expert, AI usually sends their units in frontal attacks in a melee suicide, in the most disorganized way possible, half of the units don't fire in line formations but in weird positions. This leads to an uncomfortable chaos that does not correspond to the warfare of this historical period.

    As for Thrones of Britannia, I've never played it because I don't have enough computer to play this Total War title but I have a question: how different is this game compared to Attila Total War? I have seen gameplays and both games look very similar so I don't know if worths investing in a computer to play Thrones of Britannia considering the lack of historical battles, one of my favourite features in all Total War games.
    Empire and Attila have problems with performance. I can play Warhammers very smoothly with high FPS but still Attila and Empire are lagging. There is probably nothing that can be done after certain point...Those games are 32 bit app, can adress only so much memory and for example no matter what processor you will have, you will get the famous siege slowdown due to AI movement of troops in the fort...so getting SSD, decent CPU+GPU and thatīs it.

    Surprisingly ToB or Warhammer could run even better, depends if you have 64 bit system and enough memory for Wh, ToB is optimized and tweaked Attila for better performance ToB is missing grand scale of Empire,Rome2,Attila but it is more focused in time period and place. So expect smaller unit diversity, faction also. It is based on Attila so some features like agents and ambushed were removed (because problematic implentation in Attila, Whs have much better ambushes and agents) ,instead we got tweaked mechanics. It would be great DLC for Attila, it is good to play but comparing it to other major titles like Rome2,Attila, it is little weak. Basically if you played FotS and Napoleon, it is sitting somewhere higher in content but little lower than Attila itself. If you have already Attila, go ahead,you will have fun. If you have neither of them, probably Attila is better value for money..
    Last edited by Daruwind; October 28, 2018 at 08:42 AM.

  8. #288
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    Default Re: The TW series is dead. Everything after Medieval II sucks!

    Quote Originally Posted by Evan MF View Post
    There are pretty deep 'strains' of stagnation that run through the series way back, even further than you describe. For me, being stuck with the same 20-unit army arrangement, with, essentially, the same set of crude tools to control them and roughly the same limited scale and scope of battles (pretty much the same combatant numbers per battle in all titles since Rome 1) is one of them. I always saw the 20 unit-army formula as a basis on which to build a better army simulation, but CA apparently consider it a central part of Total War's character and don't seem to have the appetite to develop it - more or less signalling that they're settled on the matter and intend to reproduce it continually with a new skin here, a new theme there rather than innovate. Those of us who got into Total War all those years ago when it was fresh and believed it was but a stage in a larger project to create an increasingly authentic/realistic (but still enjoyable) battle simulator with each iteration have had our hopes dashed.

    Another such 'strain' that exhibits the same trend is the combatant mechanics, which I would argue have actually deteriorated, let alone stagnated, since Medieval 2. Ever since mocap animations and the new warscape engine were introduced with Empire, the behaviour of combatants both as a unit and also as individual agents has never felt right. A combination of a loss of fluidity in the deformation of a unit when interacting with another unit (e.g. in a charge-impact or a prolonged melee) and the loss of a sense of mass to individual combatants when interacting with each other has been the consequence. To this day there is nothing more satisfying in the series than a heavy cavalry charge in Medieval 2 or more tangible than the natural, granular deformation of infantry battle lines of Rome 1, I would argue.

    I don't see 3K breaking any new ground in these terms and so have little optimism for it.
    I agree with everything you have written. I was writing more about game fatigue, but the archaic battle system which is the one feature that attracted us all is the one area they have not developed at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Incendio View Post
    Empire Total War is the Total War game I usually play most because 18th century warfare is my favourite of all Total War historical titles but still I can't find a computer than can run it smoothly (campaign map and battle maps). I don't know if I am the only one complaining about this: I don't like the AI, even on expert, AI usually sends their units in frontal attacks in a melee suicide, in the most disorganized way possible, half of the units don't fire in line formations but in weird positions. This leads to an uncomfortable chaos that does not correspond to the warfare of this historical period.

    As for Thrones of Britannia, I've never played it because I don't have enough computer to play this Total War title but I have a question: how different is this game compared to Attila Total War? I have seen gameplays and both games look very similar so I don't know if worths investing in a computer to play Thrones of Britannia considering the lack of historical battles, one of my favourite features in all Total War games.
    The game runs better than Atilla, IMO. For me, it is the best visual game that CA developed. I actually watch the videos because it is such a cool visual. The gameplay very different. You can't just develop any technology or buildings. The family tree mechanic is interesting and the land grants is a nice addition as well. It is better than previous titles, but there s more potential than what is actually there. Diplomacy still sucks though. I would buy it on sales though.
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  9. #289

    Default Re: The TW series is dead. Everything after Medieval II sucks!

    What i really miss is that in Rome 1, you had the option to zoom in your city and see the people walking around. No idea why they took that out.

  10. #290
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    Default Re: The TW series is dead. Everything after Medieval II sucks!

    Quote Originally Posted by izzi View Post
    What i really miss is that in Rome 1, you had the option to zoom in your city and see the people walking around. No idea why they took that out.
    Yes, that was great!
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  11. #291
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    Default Re: The TW series is dead. Everything after Medieval II sucks!

    Quote Originally Posted by Evan MF View Post
    Total War games have long become games of which the idea of playing them is far more exciting than actually playing them, and significantly so as time as gone on. I didn't have such a feeling with earlier titles, when successive titles resulted in major engine innovations and gameplay advances. Nowadays every title essentially feels like a reskin of the previous and hasn't significantly changed or improved the core gameplay (battles especially).
    Interesting formulation. I didn't think it like this, but it is a good way to see it.
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  12. #292
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    Default Re: The TW series is dead. Everything after Medieval II sucks!

    Quote Originally Posted by izzi View Post
    What i really miss is that in Rome 1, you had the option to zoom in your city and see the people walking around. No idea why they took that out.
    Quote Originally Posted by King Athelstan View Post
    Yes, that was great!
    True...its strange that each title lost interesting features that succefully worked in previus ones. Maybe the developing teams were entirely different (huge mistake) without any sence of co-operation.
    Quote Originally Posted by Genava View Post
    Interesting formulation. I didn't think it like this, but it is a good way to see it.
    That is because the main company needs hot money fast and there doesn't look for quality -that would bring something new- or actually skilled developers (cheaper sallaries).
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  13. #293

    Default Re: The TW series is dead. Everything after Medieval II sucks!

    Quote Originally Posted by Genava View Post
    Interesting formulation. I didn't think it like this, but it is a good way to see it.
    I agree. Everything feels like a simple reskin with very minor improvements. I miss the old days where modders could significantly change gameplay, if not make almost an entirely different game.

  14. #294
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    Default Re: The TW series is dead. Everything after Medieval II sucks!

    The problem is over time and with Steam the modding community has become disparate across many mediums. The adverse effect of this is that modders communicate and collaborate less than in the days of ETW and NTW where modders created mods like A Proper Empire: Terra Incognito and the Great War. TWC offered a great medium that promoted communication among modders and which many were inspired by other modder's work and regular members with visions for change. The Modding Staff are tasked with reversing this trend and promoting the innovations of days past for the future.
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    Default Re: The TW series is dead. Everything after Medieval II sucks!

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    The problem is over time and with Steam the modding community has become disparate across many mediums. The adverse effect of this is that modders communicate and collaborate less than in the days of ETW and NTW where modders created mods like A Proper Empire: Terra Incognito and the Great War. TWC offered a great medium that promoted communication among modders and which many were inspired by other modder's work and regular members with visions for change. The Modding Staff are tasked with reversing this trend and promoting the innovations of days past for the future.
    I don't think the main issue lies there that much. As tech advances, so do games advances. To mod games, becomes more difficult and time consuming. Especially the last part, "time consuming" is that many new and upcoming modders/creators are holding them back. I see many people like asking to join a modding team (because they like a mod), but sadly, many of them just give up or are like 1 day modders and just leave. For real veteran modders, it's just so difficult find the right people that has the time (to learn) and are committed to work on a mod. Most of the veteran modders left already, and it is so difficult find any replacements for them. I remember very well the golden days of modding with ETW/NTW. How many are there left? Wangrin, Primergy, Uanime5, Flikitos, Darth, etc....Try to replace those guys...impossible. For example, Shogun 2 is as good 100% moddable. How many hosted mods do you have in comparison with ETW/NTW (or later games)? There are maybe 3 hosted mods still been updated and like maybe 2 or 3 modders working on it. I mean...that's not much. It is so much fun to mod if you finely get the hang of it. But this days, almost no one is really taking advantage of it. Yes i know there are really good mods like DEI, Medieval Kingdoms 1212, Rise of Mordor, because they have a dedicated team (wish i had that). But from how many? Let us hope that modders don't become extinct.

  16. #296
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    Default Re: The TW series is dead. Everything after Medieval II sucks!

    Quote Originally Posted by izzi View Post
    I don't think the main issue lies there that much. As tech advances, so do games advances. To mod games, becomes more difficult and time consuming. Especially the last part, "time consuming" is that many new and upcoming modders/creators are holding them back. I see many people like asking to join a modding team (because they like a mod), but sadly, many of them just give up or are like 1 day modders and just leave. For real veteran modders, it's just so difficult find the right people that has the time (to learn) and are committed to work on a mod. Most of the veteran modders left already, and it is so difficult find any replacements for them. I remember very well the golden days of modding with ETW/NTW. How many are there left? Wangrin, Primergy, Uanime5, Flikitos, Darth, etc....Try to replace those guys...impossible. For example, Shogun 2 is as good 100% moddable. How many hosted mods do you have in comparison with ETW/NTW (or later games)? There are maybe 3 hosted mods still been updated and like maybe 2 or 3 modders working on it. I mean...that's not much. It is so much fun to mod if you finely get the hang of it. But this days, almost no one is really taking advantage of it. Yes i know there are really good mods like DEI, Medieval Kingdoms 1212, Rise of Mordor, because they have a dedicated team (wish i had that). But from how many? Let us hope that modders don't become extinct.
    This is the point I am driving at. I first stated that the community has become disparate. The heyday has one essential quality; community. With modders spread out or simply posting on steam there just isn't enough support to promote the hobby.

    I am a member of several "groups" on Steam and I have to say, not one of those groups are active. Steam is a platform for games and chat, but it is not a community. people learn and keep their interest through an active community. Modding is not an easy thing to do. It takes commitment and time to do anything. Despite the ease of uploading mods for the mod- user, Steam does not promote modding in itself.
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  17. #297
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    Default Re: The TW series is dead. Everything after Medieval II sucks!

    Quote Originally Posted by Diocle View Post
    In my opinion TWC series is technically dead until they won't dismiss the infamous Warscape engine and all its poisonous mutations.
    Warscape itself is not problem though. Engines just include stuff so you dont need to code everything from 0%, instead you can start from lot of basic stuff already in. Of course better the engine, less work you need to do. And sometimes it takes less work to start from beginning but using another engine rather than trying to make excisting engine into something else. In Total wars though, i am guessing they could improve current engine to become good.
    But still, you can make brilliant game even if you start with terrible engine.

    In other words, it is fault of dev team, not engine's. Altough publisher could also rush them or set all kinds of stupid demands.
    Last edited by TheRomanRuler; December 02, 2018 at 06:17 AM.

  18. #298

    Default Re: The TW series is dead. Everything after Medieval II sucks!

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    This is the point I am driving at. I first stated that the community has become disparate. The heyday has one essential quality; community. With modders spread out or simply posting on steam there just isn't enough support to promote the hobby.

    I am a member of several "groups" on Steam and I have to say, not one of those groups are active. Steam is a platform for games and chat, but it is not a community. people learn and keep their interest through an active community. Modding is not an easy thing to do. It takes commitment and time to do anything. Despite the ease of uploading mods for the mod- user, Steam does not promote modding in itself.
    I totally agree with you. But players/modders that post on steam are most small tweaks/units re-skin/etc...They are not big overhauls. Because with big overhauls you need a community, as here on TWC. I am planning myself to make a library of tutorials and post them on my forum and TWC to help out the Shogun 2 modding community. I discovered a lot of new things, and that knowledge can't be lost. I try to help out others that want to mod Shogun 2 games. But for most of them is difficult where to start. So i hope with this that may give them a push to start modding. And see more mods on Shogun 2. Because now it's pretty sad to see. I also hope, now the modding staf has been implemented, that you see more PR for small/big/upcoming mods on for example on Youtube.

  19. #299
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    Default Re: The TW series is dead. Everything after Medieval II sucks!

    Quote Originally Posted by TheRomanRuler View Post
    Warscape itself is not problem though. Engines just include stuff so you dont need to code everything from 0%, instead you can start from lot of basic stuff already in. Of course better the engine, less work you need to do. And sometimes it takes less work to start from beginning but using another engine rather than trying to make excisting engine into something else. In Total wars though, i am guessing they could improve current engine to become good.
    But still, you can make brilliant game even if you start with terrible engine.

    In other words, it is fault of dev team, not engine's. Altough publisher could also rush them or set all kinds of stupid demands.
    Exactly. We can easily see evolution of the engine from Empire to Warhammer 2. Plus as we are getting into more and more complex games, the base engine is by definition also more and more complex. So new engine means just a long bug hunting time period, basically another long thorny road from version 1 to something at least on par with current engine state...

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    This is the point I am driving at. I first stated that the community has become disparate. The heyday has one essential quality; community. With modders spread out or simply posting on steam there just isn't enough support to promote the hobby.

    I am a member of several "groups" on Steam and I have to say, not one of those groups are active. Steam is a platform for games and chat, but it is not a community. people learn and keep their interest through an active community. Modding is not an easy thing to do. It takes commitment and time to do anything. Despite the ease of uploading mods for the mod- user, Steam does not promote modding in itself.
    Steph can confirm there is a lot activity for example in C&C Discord, that is basically lair for many prominent Warhammer mods, they are especially good with scripting. Really good stuff there, not just reskins...

    https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfil...?id=1576253740
    https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfil...?id=1569393500
    https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfil...?id=1542949583
    https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfil...?id=1577217111

    Another problem is probably number of TW titles that are now playable. Med2/Rome still has some major projects, Rome has DeI, Attila has Ancient Empires, Shogun 2 + ToB are probably without major overhauls (and yes,as Izzi pointed out,there are shogun 2 mods, but not just so many and no so many active projects..) but Wh and especially Wh2 got a lot of modders but they are just not here. Radious, SFO and others got Patreon/Discord for easy promotion. What can TWC offers to those groups with Discord and Patreon? They have direct access to their fans, they have everything under their own control..
    Last edited by Daruwind; December 02, 2018 at 08:50 AM.

  20. #300
    The Wandering Storyteller's Avatar Content Staff
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    Default Re: The TW series is dead. Everything after Medieval II sucks!

    This used to be the place in 2010-11 where I got mods from. I don’t understand how when Shogun 2 came with the workshop, it was mostly simple mods. I say the flop release of Rome 2 really hindered the community. And CA’s modding tools aren’t the greatest but they are workable. TWC was a bustling place back in ETW and NTW days. I wonder if anyone remembers the org? They have done a good job of staying alive. But now the steam workshop has more mods than you ever would see. I mean RII the most panned game ever has about 1000 mods. Way more than Shogun 2 has.

    So what really happened? NTW and ETW had no workshops. Rome 2, Shogun, Warhammer and Attila have. Out of those games, the Rome 2 workshop and the Warhammer workshop is popular, Shogun being strong.

    Please feel free free to correct me if I get anything wrong.





















































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