The EBII of the Medieval Era?

[Kilo11]

Hey everyone,

Though I do absolutely love everything about EBII so far, I find myself sometimes with a mild desire to fast-forward 1300 years to the timeframe of Medieval 2, with the thunderous charges of heavy cavalry and the glory of advanced long-range weaponry. However, now after having played EBII for a good bit, I find that when playing Medieval 2 the most positive emotional response I am able to muster is, "Meh.". Simply put, the whole damn engine is so naiive and simplistic and wildly unrealistic. Even something as little as seeing some proper names with history in them leaves me wanting much.

So, the question I would like to ask all of the EBII officianados here is which mod set in the medieval era has the most to offer in terms of historicity and complex gameplay? I seem to recall seeing on some thread here that people had good things to say about Stainless Steel, but I didn't see that that has a lot to offer for the history enthusiast. I also noticed that there are a number of submods for that, one of which had a good number of people from these forums taking part (SSHIP, if I remember correctly), which I would take as a positive sign, but some solid input would be much appreciated.

Also, if the best option is a mod + some submods, please indicate which combos you have found to be most engaging (and, if you've got the time/energy, say a bit about why as well). I'm pretty sure the answers would be of a general interest as well, for all of us who just want to interact with history more, but don't have to time to download, install, and play through every mod out there. Thanks in advance, and I'm looking forward to what you guys all have to say!

[Roma_Victrix]

You're really not going to find a better medieval mod than Stainless Steel, and with it I would advise using either the Late Knights submod (gorgeous units, historically-accurate-looking 15th-century Gothic armor as well) or the Komnenian-Kwarezmian submod that provides fantastic new renderings and colorful recreations for both Byzantine and Muslim armies. Stainless Steel also has the immense bonus of containing the Mongol invasions of the Golden Horde. That number of stacks is one of the most menacing things you can face in any mod, and they come equipped with things like Chinese fire-rockets mounted on wagons well before you're able to field hand gunners and cannons.

Although it is not historical, the mod Third Age Total War, with the MOS submod (or DAC, also very good) is a very awesome mod creating the Tolkien universe of the Lord of the Rings. The sheer amount of custom and unique battle map settlements alone is enough to warrant a campaign or two, just to see all the brilliant work they did in bringing these places to life (as seen in the movies or imagined in the novels).

If you like Chinese history, then the Rise of the Three Kingdoms mod is also very good, simulates Chinese history at the beginning of the 3rd century AD with the collapse of the Eastern Han Dynasty.

[Kilo11]

You're really not going to find a better medieval mod than Stainless Steel, and with it I would advise using either the Late Knights submod (gorgeous units, historically-accurate-looking 15th-century Gothic armor as well) or the Komnenian-Kwarezmian submod that provides fantastic new renderings and colorful recreations for both Byzantine and Muslim armies.

Thanks for the tips on the submods. However, are the advantages of those submods just better textures/skins, or is there also an enhanced degree of historicity and in-game information? That is one of the things that I love most about EBII, the ability to every once in a while just read a few pages about some random archeological find, or about the politics of some faction in the info scroll. I was hoping some medieval era mod might also have that contained in it.

Although it is not historical, the mod Third Age Total War, with the MOS submod (or DAC, also very good) is a very awesome mod creating the Tolkien universe of the Lord of the Rings. The sheer amount of custom and unique battle map settlements alone is enough to warrant a campaign or two, just to see all the brilliant work they did in bringing these places to life (as seen in the movies or imagined in the novels).

Third Age is one of my favorites, so no need to sell me on that! I think the most brilliant thing they did there was scripting the auto-garrison function so that you can't roll through giant/core settlements that are temporarily left without a garrison. That is some gold usage of scripting to keep gameplay interesting.

If you like Chinese history, then the Rise of the Three Kingdoms mod is also very good, simulates Chinese history at the beginning of the 3rd century AD with the collapse of the Eastern Han Dynasty.

Is that actually a good rendition of Chinese history? I am interested in looking over at that side of things, but from what I saw of Three Kingdoms, it sort of just looked like Dynasty Warriors writ large for the TW engine.

[Jurand of Cracow]

I don't know any mod which would be as historical for the Middle Ages as EB is for the Ancient Times (I also mean the in-game descriptions of the regions). Nevertheless, I find the SSHIP the best on history of all Medieval mods. I believe you can get an even better feeling if you play my submods: on the traits of generals, and on the provincial titles.
There's also a submod providing for the garrisons.
You may also consider the Broken Crescent (with Buff&Shine), which feels very historical, but I find it a bit problematic as far as the gameplay is concerned.
Another submod of interest may be the HURB (Historical Units Regions Battles), the differences with SSHIP are described here.

[Roma_Victrix]

Bellum Crucis is heavy on history but tends to crash.

Stainless Steel feels more like the Roma Surrectum of the Medieval Period instead of the EB 2 of the medieval period.

Hah! True on both accounts.

Thanks for the tips on the submods. However, are the advantages of those submods just better textures/skins, or is there also an enhanced degree of historicity and in-game information? That is one of the things that I love most about EBII, the ability to every once in a while just read a few pages about some random archeological find, or about the politics of some faction in the info scroll. I was hoping some medieval era mod might also have that contained in it.

Admittedly, no, the submods I mentioned for SS do not add additional scroll information, only remodeling of units. Trust me, it's worth it, though. They look fantastic, especially those late knights, although you have to play into the 15th century in order to upgrade their armor (if you're not cheating and creating units).

Third Age is one of my favorites, so no need to sell me on that! I think the most brilliant thing they did there was scripting the auto-garrison function so that you can't roll through giant/core settlements that are temporarily left without a garrison. That is some gold usage of scripting to keep gameplay interesting.

Yep, the scripting is awesome, but even more so for MOS, which is a huge overhaul as the name suggests. It's so much more of a challenge and there are so many more settlements and units.

Is that actually a good rendition of Chinese history? I am interested in looking over at that side of things, but from what I saw of Three Kingdoms, it sort of just looked like Dynasty Warriors writ large for the TW engine.

It would appear that way if you're focusing on the avatar pics of the generals and admittedly some of the funky appearances of certain units, but overall it's fairly steeped in history. In fact, the scroll information is rather impressive at times and goes into serious detail about Chinese regional history during the 2nd and 3rd centuries AD. The battle maps and cities and towns are completely remodeled to fit a Chinese environment too, it's pretty breathtaking. They put a lot of work into that. However, some of the battle mechanics are a bit off. For instance, archers and crossbowmen are way too overpowered and on average their shooting range is a bit too impressive.

[IGdood]

Bellum Crucis is heavy on history but tends to crash.

Stainless Steel feels more like the Roma Surrectum of the Medieval Period instead of the EB 2 of the medieval period.

[bigdaddy1204]

I have three options for you:

1. Broken Crescent
2. SSHIP
3. Anatolian Principalities

If you haven't played Broken Crescent, you missed half your life!

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Morrowgan]

I still hope that Dominion of the Sword survives.

[gustave]

I still hope that Dominion of the Sword survives.

This mod was so promising, I even made a few unit skins for them, too bad the development stopped...

[z3n]

Broken Crescent is probably the most fun medieval themed mod I have played.

I've heard a lot of good things about SSHIP; not sure their unit skins (which are fantastic WIP's) are out yet.

[Paltmull]

I've always found it difficult to immerse myself in vanilla M2TW or TW mods taking place in the medieval era. Medieval Europe was a place of small scale wars between states and civil wars between individual lords, and I feel that TW's approach of massive empire building doesn't fit that notion like it does for various periods during ancient times. It just feels weird to conquer half of Europe as a medieval state. Additionally, the extremely important concept of feudalism isn't worked out at all in M2TW. I very much prefer a game like Mount & Blade (Warband), with its many mods, for that era.

Not a very helpful comment for this thread, I know. Just a thought i had.

[Roma_Victrix]

I've always found it difficult to immerse myself in vanilla M2TW or TW mods taking place in the medieval era. Medieval Europe was a place of small scale wars between states and civil wars between individual lords, and I feel that TW's approach of massive empire building doesn't fit that notion like it does for various periods during ancient times. It just feels weird to conquer half of Europe as a medieval state. Additionally, the extremely important concept of feudalism isn't worked out at all in M2TW. I very much prefer a game like Mount & Blade (Warband), with its many mods, for that era.

Not a very helpful comment for this thread, I know. Just a thought i had.

Is it unfitting for the medieval period, though? The Byzantine restoration under Basil II the Bulgar Slayer brought much of the Balkans and other areas of the Mediterranean under the Eastern Roman Empire during the 11th century.

The Crusades led by various Western powers established the Kingdom of Jerusalem in the Levant and the Latin Empire over Greece following the Fourth Crusade in 1204. The Holy Roman Empire based in Germany projected its power into northern Italy and in conjunction with the Kingdom of Poland and Duchy of Masovia had the Teutonic Order establish a base in Prussia.

The Holy Roman Empire and Kingdom of France were based on the even larger Frankish empire that existed in the Early Middle Ages, the Carolingian Empire established by Charlemagne. Following William the Conqueror's conquest of Anglo-Saxon England, Angevin Empire of the High Middle Ages brought about a political union of England with the western half of France and eastern half of Ireland.

A few decades before William's Norman conquest the Anglo-Saxon Kingdom of England was actually united with Sweden, Denmark, and Norway to form the North Sea Empire of Cnut the Great. This was centuries before the Kalmar Union of 1397 that brought about the unification of Norway, Denmark, Sweden, and parts of Finland.

The Italian maritime republics of Venice and Genoa fought for control of territories as far flung as the Balkans, Greece, Anatolia, and Crimea in the Black Sea region. The medieval Venetian legacy of expansionism carried on into the Early Modern period as they fought the Ottoman Empire for control of Eastern Mediterranean territories and islands.

The Ottoman expansion into Eastern Europe began in the 14th century, well before Constantinople fell to their empire in 1453. The culmination of the Late Middle Ages also saw the rise of the Habsburg dynasty that would rule over Spain, Germany, Austria, the Netherlands, Southern Italy, and eventually parts of the Americas. Even before then, the Crown of Aragon in Iberian peninsula was united with the Kingdom of Sicily (which included southern Italy) and even controlled parts of Greece such as Attica.

[TheCataphract]

Like others have said before me, the only mods that come to mind that is like EBII are SSHIP and Broken Cresent.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

SSHIP (just my thoughts)

Pros:
- Beautiful graphics, textures, and units
- Historical focus (faction names are accurate, units are associated w/ the right time period, etc.)
- Still being developed (tweaks to geography & campaign map, Islamic roster overhaul imminent, more models)
- Campaign mechanics are noticeably better and harder than vanilla Stainless Steel (imo)
- Different factions to give the game a new feel from vanilla SS (Zengids, Abbasids, Serbia, etc.)
- Sandy's Western Overhaul models oof
- Has it's own array of minimods to accompany it
- Very stable (haven't had a crash in ages)

Cons:
- Cav is a little too op (45 mounted knights taking out a braced 200 men unit w/ a single charge) -> Note: Developers said that they will tweak cav in the future
- Battle mechanics are still Stainless Steel and Vanilla like (different pace than EBII's battles) (units die faster = less time for tactics) (Some people like it, some people don't. It's a matter of opinion)

Broken Cresent is a good mod if you're looking for a more Eastern focus instead of a primarily Western one. (Crusaders, Byzantines, Different Caliphates, etc.)
The campaign map they use is also really good. Deus lo Vult is also a pretty good mod. Cheers

[Kilo11]

Thanks guys. Especial thanks to bigdaddy for playing up Broken Crescent so much, and for including the pic of the campaign map. I had heard of Broken Crescent before, but never got around to checking it out. I think I will have to rememdy that, as it looks awesome, and the simplistic representation of the Middle East always bugged me in vanilla M2TW. The Muslim world was far more advanced than Christian Europe in that period, and it would be cool to explore that area more.

[Roma_Victrix]

Thanks guys. Especial thanks to bigdaddy for playing up Broken Crescent so much, and for including the pic of the campaign map. I had heard of Broken Crescent before, but never got around to checking it out. I think I will have to rememdy that, as it looks awesome, and the simplistic representation of the Middle East always bugged me in vanilla M2TW. The Muslim world was far more advanced than Christian Europe in that period, and it would be cool to explore that area more.

Cairo is still a very important city in the modern world, but just imagine how Baghdad would be right now if it hadn't been sacked and burned by the Mongols in 1258. With its grand House of Wisdom reminiscent of the Library of Alexandria, it was the premier intellectual center of the Islamic world, a status it had retained since the early days of the Abbasid period. To find a comparison for the Western world, it would be akin to something like the Mongols sacking contemporary Paris and burning down its nascent universities, or burning down any number of great city-states in northern Italy at the time (I refrain from mentioning Constantinople, which was already in a steep decline since the sacking of 1204 during the Fourth Crusade).

I really used to enjoy the Deus Lo Vult mod and it reminded me a lot about EB1 when i used to play it.
I don't know why i couldn't find any love for SS though but i didn't.

For the life of me I don't understand this consternation some have with Stainless Steel. It is a fantastic mod, especially with certain sub-mods, and the Mongol invasion feature alone, on top of the subsequent Timurids, is enough to keep one's interest in the game.

[myarta]

For the life of me I don't understand this consternation some have with Stainless Steel. It is a fantastic mod, especially with certain sub-mods, and the Mongol invasion feature alone, on top of the subsequent Timurids, is enough to keep one's interest in the game.

As someone who finds it, even with SSHIP, to be not very entertaining, I can try to explain it. I think it has to do with the tech event system. When I play as England, there's an initial challenge of trying to pacify the Welsh while fending off the Scots, but eventually you get that under control and then...what? Then maybe take Scotland for an early UK and get some more buffer space around Normandy. But there's only a few types of units, not a lot of exciting trait progression or faction mechanics that I can see. I'm just playing the waiting game for my Miles Pediti pools and reading the event texts, waiting for my next unit unlock many turns away with nothing to do each turn unless I want to start trying to conquer all of France.

It has a broad sweep over the eras and that can be interesting, but at least in, say, DHRR, they had a whole system of counts/viscounts/princes/dukes that was more immersive than the title system in SSHIP in my view, sort of the same change of SMHM compared to vanilla on the CK2 map, plus you had bishop and archbishoprics to keep stocked and careers to advance there. There was a whole system to do with the elections, imperial tax, the imperial ban, etc. It felt much more EB-like in having things to actually do with each turn other than end it and wait for the next interesting era, which admittedly brings fun things, but is a little boring waiting for.

And Jurand etc, I don't mean any offense by it. There are tons of amazing things in those mods and I appreciate your work. I'm only highlighting what I perceive as the "negatives" to try to give Roma some understandable reasons why others might feel less interested in playing it, not to give an overall balanced review.

[bigdaddy1204]

Glad to be of help

[Cultist]

I really used to enjoy the Deus Lo Vult mod and it reminded me a lot about EB1 when i used to play it.
I don't know why i couldn't find any love for SS though but i didn't.

[bigdaddy1204]

I just spent 5 straight hours attempting to rebuild the Abassid Caliphate (Broken Crescent). It was epic.

War against Mosul. Advance to Kirkuk. These are places that have recently been recaptured from ISIS in real life. Then turn east. War against invading Bahraini Uyunnids. Halt their advance in a shattering battle near Basra and kill their faction leader. Push them back. Retake Basra. Brief truce. Then war resumes. Counter offensive into Bahrain/Qatar/UAE. Faction wiped out. Exterminate capital.

Then whats this? Eldeguzid attack against Kirkuk. Defeat their assault. Counter offensive. Capture Kermanshah in Iran. Capture Ardabil on the Caspian sea. Smash the entire Eldeguzid army of over 4500 men in pitched battle. Conquer Tabriz in Iran, Qazvin, Baku, and much of northIran. Ceasefire to remaining enemy outside Iran.

Then war against Seljuks. Conquest of central Iran. Three armies on the offensive. One at Caspian coast heading east, one in the Zagros heading east and one along the Persian gulf. All enemies crushed. Countless cities conquered.

Then war against Ghorids. Advance into northeast Iran. Meanwhile, finally kill rebel stack near Basra after 68 turns of total war!! The fun is not over yet but it's late. Khorasan and Afganistan awaits tomorrow!

[athanaric]

I've found Broken Crescent to be very immersive, although - back then - still a bit rough around the edges, when I played it (which was years ago). It has some very nice unit skins and interesting factions (Makuria, yay). Ultimately stopped playing it though because of persistent CTDs and memory leaks. I hope the current version is more stable.