[Submod] Peace Treaty Script (Realistic Expansion) *testers appreciated*

[Fluke]

I'm using this mod with the 1.2.2h beta and Cultural Tension and it is working very well. It really helps to simulate the historical progression of events when using the Historical Reform Dates mod.

[Little Rock]

Hi Claagent11 and Greek Strategos

Thank you for your replies, it's much appreciated.

I'm just finishing off an old campaign and will be starting a new with rome very soon using your mod and the others mentioned including De AI Arbitriis, I will let you know how this goes..

[Burnsinator]

I got to say I definitely like the idea of this mod. Looks very promising. Any chance of an upload to the Steam workshop kind sir, or is that not possible since it's a script?

[Vardano]

I played with this mod as Epiros on Hard and should say that this submod really lacks even minimal aggressiveness. More than 100 turns in the game and no single faction expanded, pretty much all faction still in their original territory. This serves its original purpose but I think some more expansion should happen, so at least we can have some regional powers, as it is now there is no one can face you.

[ghost0128]

Have you played it without the CAI optional mod? The regional powers do come into being, but they take much longer to do so. Playing with De AI Arbitriis and Cultural Tensions limits your expansion rate as well. I am also 100 turns in and just got the upper hand on Carthage!

[Vardano]

Yes I played without CAI optional mod but with Cultural Tensio indeed. By the way it is said that this mod is not compatible with DE AI Arbitris. Cultural Tensio only slows down factions which have culture different from their own in a newly conquered lands. In my case there is no expansion at all. As Epiros I own the whole Apennine peninsula, region to north from Latium and all Macedonia - everyone is scared of me and want to trade and be friends now.

Before this I played Cultural Tensio + DE AI Arbitris without this submod obviously and there were way more expansion. I'm gonna try Testudo mod now.

[♔Greek Strategos♔]

AFAIK CIaagent11 released it mostly as a beta. A starting point for him to work and expand it later.

[ghost0128]

Any updates?

[♔Greek Strategos♔]

Any updates?

As it seems nope, since CIaagent11 is inactive atm.

[mrsmile1015]

Hi, just tested both Expansion Limit Scripts and CAI component and noticed very strange things. Factions out of my vision expanded like crazy. 100 turns in, Suebi has conquered most of germany. The Iceni has conquered beyond and England and formed their own gaulic empire.

[♔Greek Strategos♔]

Hi, just tested both Expansion Limit Scripts and CAI component and noticed very strange things. Factions out of my vision expanded like crazy. 100 turns in, Suebi has conquered most of germany. The Iceni has conquered beyond and England and formed their own gaulic empire.

This version is still in beta and patch 19 changed many things to both aggression and diplomacy.

[asher237]

This version is still in beta and patch 19 changed many things to both aggression and diplomacy.

I've been using this in conjunction with joysong's mods. It's great. Just wrapped up the 2nd punic war and have been curbing Macedonian interests in the Balkans. Roughly accurate timeline, as well. However, Selucids and Egypt recently wrapped up a devasting war that resulted in a bunch of anatolian and levatine provinces declaring independence. so that is pretty interesting....

A lot of client state and satrapy formation as well, as opposed to outright conquering.

[♔Greek Strategos♔]

I've been using this in conjunction with joysong's mods. It's great. Just wrapped up the 2nd punic war and have been curbing Macedonian interests in the Balkans. Roughly accurate timeline, as well. However, Selucids and Egypt recently wrapped up a devasting war that resulted in a bunch of anatolian and levatine provinces declaring independence. so that is pretty interesting....

A lot of client state and satrapy formation as well, as opposed to outright conquering.

Good to know. The basic factions still working I guess.
Thanks for your report.

[Affenbaron]

Hey there, I´ve recently had an idea for a submod but I have no clue how to script, so no idea how to implement it.

Would you happen to know whether it were possible to force a faction to seek peace through diplomacy?
So instead of enforcing peace directly, it would be forcing factions which loose too many assets (be they armies, units, regions or whatever possible) to try and get peace.

This has always been a problem with Rome 2 and Attila, this constant need to have a total war (ironic isn´t it)
Most of the time factions fight until the bitter end.

All other aspects of the submod would be dependent on this possibilty, so I won´t bother writing it all down now^^

[Jake Armitage]

I'll check lua functions, surely something is doable, since there are functions to script diplomatic stance.
Need to see how and when trigger them, and if those triggers are compatible.

Would you write down some possible examples in a campaign about what you specifically intend?

[Affenbaron]

I´ve thought about tying the script to imperium level.
Also if possible to either faction or culture, since different cultures had different levels of tolerance for losses.

The higher the Imperium level and cultural tolerance, the more losses a faction can sustain before asking for peace.
I don´t know what kind of factors could constitute losses though.

Let´s take x as our "unit-loss"-value

If possible, I´d like to have one factor to be the number of units in the field compared to their population class.
Let´s say f.e. since each unit of Principes or Hastati cost 200 Plebeians, this is our value x.
If there are 30 units of Principes and 30 units of Hastati in the field, we thus have 60x.
The total number of still available Plebeians for Rome is 60000 (arbitrary number), they thus constitute 300x.

In our example, 1/6 of available Plebeians are in the field.
Since ancient cultures usually weren´t able (or willing) to sustain more than 1/3 of their military population in their military,
let´s say if any population class goes over this value, we have reached our "tolerance" value of y.


Another factor could be region losses.
Since regions are more tangible than units and population class, let´s also assign them the value of y.

The higher the imperium level of a faction, the more y it is able and willing to sustain.
We could even say that per Imperium level the faction would gain 1y as tolerance level, though that´s up for debate.

Since culture is also important for this, Rome has an additional tolerance bonus of 3y.
Hellenic factions historically gave up earlier than others, so let´s say a bonus of only 1y.
Since war was a constant in barbarian culture, I´d also give them at least a bonus of 2y.
I have no idea actually how much eastern factions ought to like war, so this would need to be evaluated by someone different.

I don´t know how far this is viable, but I think this could make faction behavior more realistic.
Of course all of this is up for further debate, this is just what I had in mind.

[Jake Armitage]

I see...
First of all I have to say that my scripting abilities resides just in mocking.
I study DeI scripts, then with logic and patience I try to compose what's my aim.

So, "technically" speaking, you would like the script to function this way:

PARAMETERS:
1) every faction is inside a group depending by a fixed cultural choice made by modder (probably doable through a scripted library)
Will this value change during campaign depending on some factors?

TRIGGERS:
2) imperium level (ok)
3) having recently lost regions (dunno, probably doable but this could be an issue for being a little too rigid, have to check.)
4) ratio between population available and population active in army (dunno, probably is doable, but it won't be easy, I fear. Litharion would know for sure how to or if to)

EFFECTS:
5) player receives a dilemma choice (next turn I think) where he can ask for piety from AI or can forgive AI faction and so let there be peace. Dunno if dilemmas could be triggered this way. Probably yes.
6) AI vs AI might be an automatic choice. I really don't know if you can script a dice roll for a similar thing.
So every time those triggers are reached, AI vs AI war will stop and be turned to peace. This could mean no conquer at all if not well studied and balanced.

I see quite enough where you want to go.
Not bad, could be cool.
Maybe a classic example of realism research, BUT you have to pay attention not to make a campaign even more irrealistic with some unbalanced factors.

There are two problems:
A) It won't be easy to script. Not at all. But, afaik, it is most probably technically doable. Can't be sure 100% though.
B) Balancing (population ratio and effects) and finding the best way to script that, won't be easy too.

So,
How are your abilities in scripting?
How far your patience will lead you?

I would suggest you to check Claagent's script. I'll check it too, It's quite some time I did last.

Cheers.

[Affenbaron]

PARAMETERS:
1) every faction is inside a group depending by a fixed cultural choice made by modder (probably doable through a scripted library)
Will this value change during campaign depending on some factors?

TRIGGERS:
2) imperium level (ok)
3) having recently lost regions (dunno, probably doable but this could be an issue for being a little too rigid, have to check.)
4) ratio between population available and population active in army (dunno, probably is doable, but it won't be easy, I fear. Litharion would know for sure how to or if to)

I think Imperium level would rather fit into Parametres, as in increased Imperium level increases tolerance for losses.
Otherwise I think that´s what I want, but I have no idea about scripting, so dunno^^

I had hoped it were possible to do something like this:
For every faction in a war the script runs a check at the beginning of its turn

x0 = number of units from population class (1) in armies
x1 = number of units available of population class (1) factionwide
x2 = number of units from population class (2) in armies
x3 = number of units available of population class (3) factionwide
x4 = number of units from population class (3) in armies
x5 = number of units available of population class (3) factionwide
x6 = ((x0/x1)+(x2/x3)+(x4/x5))*3

y0 = baseline cultural tolerance (roman/hellenic/eastern/barbarian)
y1 = y0+imperum level
y2 = number of regions at beginning of war - current regions
y3 = y2 + x6
if y3 ≥ y1 then Effect



Let´s go through this in an example
Rome vs Macedon (at Imperium lvl 2)
Rome has taken one region from Macedon
Macedon has about 2/3 of their class 1 pop in their armies and 2/3 of their pop 1 and 3 respectively

Macedon:
x0 = 40
x1 = 60
x2 = 20
x3 = 60
x4 = 20
x5 = 60
x6 = (40/60+20/60+20/60)*3 = 4

y0 = 1
y1 = 1 + 2 = 3
y2 = 1
y3 = 1 + 4 = 5
y3 > y1 therefore Effect

EFFECTS:
5) player receives a dilemma choice (next turn I think) where he can ask for piety from AI or can forgive AI faction and so let there be peace. Dunno if dilemmas could be triggered this way. Probably yes.
6) AI vs AI might be an automatic choice. I really don't know if you can script a dice roll for a similar thing.
So every time those triggers are reached, AI vs AI war will stop and be turned to peace. This could mean no conquer at all if not well studied and balanced.

Instead of a dilemma choice, I´d rather have some sort of influence on diplomatic behavior. Dunno if that´s possible though.

So,
How are your abilities in scripting?
How far your patience will lead you?

I would suggest you to check Claagent's script. I'll check it too, It's quite some time I did last.

Cheers.

My scripting abilities = non existent xD
Patience? As long as I do have the time ^^
Which currently is less than I´d like with exams coming up

can´t edit my posts yet, but I just realised with different unit sizes it would need a xN for every unit available for that particular faction.
Damn, that´s a bit more complicated than I had wished for xD

[Jake Armitage]

I see. well planned.
Seems a good structure.

Here is what i can tell, to be verified:

x0, x2, x4: shouldn't be a problem
x1, x3, x5: shouldn't be a problem, but not sure 100%
x6: well, it's a math function, so it's scriptable. I don't know how values for x could be called back sincerely. Might be doable.

y0: shouldn't be a problem
y1: shouldn't be a problem
y2: this I don't know. I don't know if game can remember a particular situation that is not about current or last turn. That's why i called this rigid.
y3: well, it's a math function, so it's scriptable. I don't know how values for y could be called back sincerely. Might be doable.

EFFECTS: to trigger effects you'll have to collect all the things you have done before. Might be doable.
Yeah, influence on diplomacy is maybe better. Shouldn't be a problem, but not sure 100%


This will be a really complex and long script.
Far more than my abilities. I'm not still sure even if it is doable as or similar to your description.
Wait a couple of days and see if someone (Dresden and Litharion mostly) have time and will to answer your questions.
Otherwise, if none respond, PM to Litharion asking gently to have a look, if he can.

[Affenbaron]

If the game or the script can remember or somehow save numbers, maybe it would be smarter to have it like this:

x0 = total population class 1 at start of war
x1 = total population class 1 currently
x2 = total population class 2 at start of war
x3 = total population class 2 currently
x4 = total population class 3 at start of war
x5 = total population class 3 currently
x6 = ((x0/x1)+(x2/x3)+(x4/x5))*3

I also think x(0/2/4) should stay the same if the faction enters into another war with another faction.
Also, if possible, I think if a faction has asked for peace this way, it ought to be peaceful for a certain amount of time.
Maybe that could be dependent on Imperium level too?