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[Averroës]

I understand the reasons for wanting to increase sacking monies. I agree, in part, with the logic behind it. I just want to be sure the other side of the argument is considered. Personally, I can't see why someone would choose to sack a city if they intended to stay there and develop it. After all, it is the wealth of the city which makes it a target for sacking and also for conquering. To me, that implies that you either intend to sack the city to acquire that wealth in the short term or annex the city to acquire that wealth in the long term. Maybe it's just me; but they seem like separate and antithetical goals.

[Ludicus]

One other comment about the diplomacy. In my game as Milan, I allied with the Pope early.....

Don´t:

Changelog v0.8
- The default papal_faction AI is now quite passive. For best results don't ally the papal states

.

[Ivniciix]

I understand the reasons for wanting to increase sacking monies. I agree, in part, with the logic behind it. I just want to be sure the other side of the argument is considered. Personally, I can't see why someone would choose to sack a city if they intended to stay there and develop it. After all, it is the wealth of the city which makes it a target for sacking and also for conquering. To me, that implies that you either intend to sack the city to acquire that wealth in the short term or annex the city to acquire that wealth in the long term. Maybe it's just me; but they seem like separate and antithetical goals.

My thought is that the new owner of a province would historically redistribute the wealth of that place to himself. This is different from the "horde" option in RTW of burning a town to the ground. MTW lacks that option obviously. So I see it as a progression of options that the game mechanics don't handle all that well...specifically when you compare how a player might handle it and how the AI handles it.

When a player is planning to capture a province of a different religion, he'd be wise to prepare it by sending in priests/imams in advance to change the religion. The AI certainly doesn't do this which is why they often get kicked out of newly conquered towns of another religion. But, even if a player doesn't prepare a province with missionaries, the after-conquest options are whack.

The third option, exterminate, ought to have the highest immediate loot payout and be what you'd use on a town you didn't intend to keep (much like the option hordes have but the city still exists - ideally it would also automatically destroy any destructable buildings and factor that into the loot amount). Sacking, ought to have a lower payout and represent the immediate transfer of wealth that happens when you appropriate it from the previous ruler but leave the city intact - and kill the ruling class. Occupy should be just that with little or no loot but result in a significant increase in the loyalty of the province (over what it would otherwise be) - even if it were only temporary - which I have no idea is possible or not. Citizens will generally be thankful you didn't kill them outright at least until they get to know you!

I know this may sound unrelated but I think part of the problem is that the AI tends to mass it's troops into attacking armies early and leave their cities with dinky garrisons. This really makes playing a "slow" game difficult. The result is that players are forced into reactionary strategies that make them engage in conquest purely for defense. Get the balance of garrison size and territorial imperatives right so the AI plays slow too and the loot payout amount is much less of an issue.

[Averroës]

@Ivniciix

Wonderful post. Changing my mind is something akin to trying to move a mountain using a cheap plastic straw as a lever and forgetting to bring your fulcrum. You've done it. Explained in that way, I think it actually does make sense to increase the sack values; if it can be done, that is.


@Ludicus

About the Pope...

I haven't found him to be all that passive. In my latest campaign, I'm playing the Scots on H/H. By time I'd destroyed the English and fought France down to Marseille, while allied with Portugal who took out Toulouse, Narbonne and Bordeaux, I discovered that the Papacy had been at war with Milan. The Papacy owned Milan, Milan owned Genoa and Florence (they took it from the Papacy while I had a diplomat nearby) and they were fighting over Bologna with it changing hands frequently. The Papacy also owned Corsica and Sardinia and Tunis and the Toe of Italy which name escapes me at the moment (apparently Sicily had gone to war with the Papacy too at some point.) Unless the AI is prone to gifting provinces to the Papacy, these provinces were taken by the Papal troops. Wasn't very passive at all - if attacked.

[Ivniciix]

I just noticed that Milanese crossbow Militia won't shoot of of walls into attackers. I'm not sure which sub-mod made them shot only in a straight trajectory but this bug ain't good!

Edit: OK...Not quite right...they just won't shoot at anything very close to the wall.

2nd Edit: ...and even when they do have a flat trajectory line of site to a far targetr, only a very few will fire...like maybe one in five. the rest stand around blocked by the parapet crenilations....must build some archers now...

[tornnight]

Yep they need line of sight. DarthMod added this.

[GrandViZ]

Version 0.8 should address most of your complains about the Papal States - as long as you don't ally them, just keep good relations and follow the missions, if you want him on your side, when it comes to excommunication. If attacked they will of course defend themselves.

And before I forget, thank you all for the faith you put into testing my AI modfications within your own mods.

Best regards
GrandViZ

[tornnight]

Version 0.8 should address most of your complains about the Papal States - as long as you don't ally them, just keep good relations and follow the missions, if you want him on your side, when it comes to excommunication. If attacked they will of course defend themselves.

And before I forget, thank you all for the faith you put into testing my AI modfications within your own mods.

Best regards
GrandViZ

You're mod alone makes this game worth playing. Thanks a bunch GrandViZ!

[Rothgar]

Any ETA on version 1.5 of your Mod??? ;-)

[tornnight]

Final testing. < 1 hour.

[mlc82]

Can't wait for the new one, your combo is my favorite here Tornnight.

[Averroës]

I'm a big fan of Candelarius' Lite mod; but this combo mod is a close second and there is no third. Nicely done, Tornnight. It allows me to try the best targetted issue mods out there, like GrandViz' Utlimate AI and Spurius' BigMap, without trying to mix and match them myself. You've done a great job of integrating the best to be had into a seamless whole. Looking forward to the new version; although I've already been having a great time playing with old version!

[Ivniciix]

What Averroes said!

[Curtis13]

v 1.5 - I have just loaded a custom battle, HRE vs. Spain, Spanish plain, and every time I load up the battle map is basically an ocean and all units are dead instantly. Any ideas?

Ok, you have a serious problem with this mod. Half of the custom battles maps are twice as hilly, and half of them are oceans...

[tornnight]

Did you copy your custom maps from your data folder? I don't touch the custom maps

[Curtis13]

Did you copy your custom maps from your data folder? I don't touch the custom maps

Yes, I did, and I have done multiple re-installs as well. You know your "base" folder is 3x the size of the vanilla one?

The vanilla "base" folder is just over 8mb, yours is around 27mb...

[tornnight]

Thats because of Spurious's new Campaign Big Map.

Custom maps are in
C:\Program Files\SEGA\Medieval II Total War\The_Long_Road\data\world\maps\Custom

[Curtis13]

Hmm, I believe it is a problem that comes with using the big map. Deus Lo Vult has the same problem - only certain custom maps work when using the big map.

Cheers

[tornnight]

Hmm, I believe it is a problem that comes with using the big map. Deus Lo Vult has the same problem - only certain custom maps work when using the big map.

Cheers

Could you give me a specific map that doesn't?

I tried a few and didn't see any problems.

[mlc82]

Hey Tornnight, just saw that UltimateAI .9 is now out, would it hurt to just install it directly into TLR 1.5? Seems it would fix the problem I'm having of the AI never accepting ceasefires, I'm currently stuck in wars with Egypt, Milan, and the Byzantines, with both E and M being nearly beaten before the Byz even attacked, and yet neither would accept a "balanced" ceasefire attempt... I even tried taking another Egyptian city then offering it right back to them for ceasefire (getting either generous or very genorous") and still no luck.

I know this isn't the fault of your mod, but it's the only problem I'm having with it so far.