[WIP] About limiting elite full stacks in campaign !

[Lord Somewhere Out In Space]

Hi everyone !

I'm actually working on a little mod after hearing several complains about "these ty full elite stacks breaking the game *sob* DO YOU BELIEVE IT THERE WERE LIKE 100 % TIER 4/5 DINOSAURS rampaging all along in my lovely skaven town killing rats plundering rats raping rats *sob* NO MORE EVER NOOB GAME" and yeah actually I understand that feeling. Currently, I'm having four ideas about how to limit the army build. You, who are more experienced than me, are these proposals playable/enjoyable in game/already done by someone else/is it even possible to bring them in game ?

The army build limits I want to reach are close to the tabletop ones. Like : no limits for basic units (most tier 1-3) ; 1 or 2 units max for elite units or special units (most tier 4-5) per army ; and 1 unit available at the same on the campaign map for the most legendary ones (Dragons, Venerable Stegadon, Hellpit Abomination). I would not want to set limits to intervention armies or to Chaos and Norsca invading units, because it's their purpose to be stupidly powerfull.

• In data/db/main_units_tables, you can edit the campaign recruitment cap for each unit. Usefull to limit the most powerfull units in game, making them really decisive ; turning them in some sort of very powerfull Regiments of Renown ; it can't be cheated by the player, except for special mounts for characters ; compatible with most of the mods ; but it's unusable to limit most of the non-tier 6 elite units. Of course, this cap wouldn't apply to elite Norscan and Chaos units, because of invasions.
• It's also possible to make a recruitment cap per building. It would work similar to heroes recruitment limit. Like you have to build everytime in a different province capital the very expensive tier 6 building to get another Stellar Dragon, or to have 2 units of the Naggarond's Guards. Yet is easy to cheat by the player : you simply have to destroy and rebuild to have access to new units, and roleplay will be the only guaranty it works fine. By the way, it doesn't sound very lore friendly. Who would like to have a Hoeth tower in every provincial capital, stealing a slot for something else, slowing development of the faction ? But, it's still an effective idea to limit all types of units. How can I do this ?
• It, why not, may be possible to give hidden traits to every lords limiting recruitement of more than a certain number of each unit. I have NO IDEA of if it's actually possible to do, but I'm counting on your experience . It would solve the problem in a very fine way, would be very compatible with every other mods and costless for the player. But, it could be cheated by the player, who could merge different armies to reorganise the units between them. How can I do this ?
• The same idea reversed, I could give a trait that says only lords of a certain level of experience can unlock elite units. This would in fact limit elite recruitment to elite lords. How can I do this ?
• I could simply rebalance their cost to make elite units terrifyingly expensive, but that's in my opinion a lazy way to get the job done.

Also, I'm curious about how Regiments of Renown work. When you try to recruit a RoR that you already have in your army, it says "Empty unit pool", how can I bring it on other units ?
And, there is a countdown time you have to wait before recruiting this RoR unit in another army, how can I bring it on other units ?
Finally, RoR need to be recruited only by generals of a certain level, it's an amazing idea to limit elite units, how does it works ?

All the ideas I'm throwing on paper here can easily be mixed together, what do you think of it ? Last but not least, I could also to the same, but instead of limiting each units, limiting entire unit types (Monstrous Cavalry, Artillery, Heavy Infantry).

Thanks for reading, thanks for replying and excuse the fact I speak baguette and am therefore not very strong in pudding-tongue.

[fikealox]

Forgive my ignorance, but why is the first solution not usable to limit most of the non-tier 6 elite units?

[Lord Somewhere Out In Space]

Forgive my ignorance, but why is the first solution not usable to limit most of the non-tier 6 elite units?

You can edit any value you want, it means you can limit as well 1 Stellar Dragon as 5 Lions of Chrace if you want (I guess). So, of course you can .

But, I'm not fond of that solution, because it means in the early campaign, when you have few armies, you can reach the limit AND having elite full stacks : the pool is not adapted. It also means that in late campaign, when you have four or five armies rampaging around the world, you won't have enough elite allowed to build good armies : the pool is too restricted. Of course, the IA has the same limits, so there will be no balance problems. Therefore, this easy solution is only fully efficient for very elite units I would allow only once in the campaign. Black Dragons, Venerable Stegadons, Stellar Dragons, Hellpit Abomination maybe.

I'm currently thinking about turning all elite units in Regiments of Renown, if it isn't too hard to mod. It would make it more flexible, like making a recruitment cap for each army ; also making elite units available after a certain level only, wich is an idea I love.

Another idea I had yesterday is to give a level minimum limit to the recruitment buildings, like saying "No, you can't recruit Swordmasters of Hoeth until you're level 20, read the Terms and Conditions stfu n00b". If you want give a try to the global campaign recruitment cap, you can easily find it in the data/db/main_units_stats. I'd be glad to see if it really works.

[Lord Somewhere Out In Space]

Forgive my ignorance, but why is the first solution not usable to limit most of the non-tier 6 elite units?

EDIT : I've tryed it (read the previous post about the doubts I had). I limited several units with different values in the main_units_stats AND IT WORKS GREAT . So, until I'll find a solution to limit the elite recruitment through characters level/buildings/making new RoR units, I'll release a first version of my mod and limit the elite recruitment with this campaign cap.

What it will change : On early campaign, not that much. It's only when you'll begin to raise more armies and have like 40-50 units on the campaign map that you will begin to feel the limits. I want that, on the stage where a faction becomes very very powerfull, said faction has to manage smart to dispatch it's elite units between all his land forces. So, the mod will be balanced for mid- and late campaign .

Of course, same goes for AI.

[battlefrog]

The only issue i can see with limiting it via main_units is that it will conflict with all overhauls otherwise good idea

[Jearon]

Hi.

I thought of how to solve this is as wel and never found a mod for it (don't know if it is possebel).
So I tryed modding myself but I never done it befor so stumbled on this forum looking for tips on how to mod and then this threat.
What I had in mind is something you didn't add so I wanne suggest it, maybe you are beter at modding then I am.

I wanted to change 2 things.

First I wanted to add a limitation to a army, based on upkeep, like max upkeep for a army woud be 2000 or so, maybe even make it level whit the lord so it becomes 1000+("lord level" * 25) Something like that.
I think this can solve that problem + make the skavens whit there slaves feel more off a horde while the elves can get higher upkeep and more elite unites.

Just so you can't spam armys to just get the same result as befor, reinforcing your armys, I woud change it so that you get 1 army for every province, and a starting army, for your legendary lord.

However I am worried this will make the game turn into a slug since low level lords may not be abel to seige settlements on there own and at the start when you don't control any province it may be problematic but I gues that can be fixed by tunning the numbers, these are just examples.
On the other sides, proper upgraded settlements will be hard to take over, that coud make interesting battles.

It woud also not limite the number of high tier unites you can have in total, like whit your suggestions but I still don't think you will take 5 or so dragons whit you, they woud be pretty lonely.
And still allow a new lord to get all units, I think limiting units to the level of your lord is bad, you loose one high level lord and you will loose access to a army whit high tier.

Let me know what you think.

[Lord Somewhere Out In Space]

@Jearon : The money cap is available in multiplayer and custom battles, but not in campaign. The only limit you can give so far is filling restricted pools in campaign, which is slightly different than the total upkeep cost you can reach per army. The deal between the two ideas would be to limit the recruitment following the Lord's level, as it would restrict units per army, but without the "tabletop-like" money cap. In fact, elite units cost more than regular ones, so it would give the same global feeling.

But, if you already want to give a try to my mod, there's a first release available here !

[Jearon]

However I am looking for armys that feel more tabletop, Whit the generals level matttering.
I like the campain but I don't like it takes away the use of something like skaven slaves (why use them when I can get clanrats, why them if I can get stormvermin) The problem is that the limite is the 20 slot in a army.
And then whit so manny stormvermin against something like a full army of elves it just kinda ruins the feel of a horde of rats going against a elite elven army when the numbers are more or less the same.
Or the joy of blasting away whit groups artelery in a glorious death of slaves and elves. Sure I use stormvermin in that way but it goes against my idee of skaven, I don't wanne kill my own elite let the slaves do that.
On that matter can you take away the friendly fire worry from skaven artelry and ranged units, I mean there worry where they refuse to shoot into friendlys?

But I'll be sure to give your mod a try see how it feels and give some feedback, I migh be supprissed.

[Lord Somewhere Out In Space]

With the system actually built, you will have a limit for Stormvermins and no limit for Clanrats and Slaves. So there will be a limited number of elites in your armies, and same goes for AI .
And all ranged units can fire if there is an ennemy on range, even if they can hit their mates ! Of course you can't fire if there are ONLY your units in their range, even the Skaven, but sometimes I loose soldiers because of the friendly fire !

[Yerevan]

Just to say, I've read your stuff on Mundud Bellicus and I like the idea that some elite units would only fight under a high level general.

And yes, I don't like that some stacks are full elite units but the problem is that it goies with the logic ofg the vortex campaign. When you have 5 chaos elite stacks spawing behind your lines you have to adapt and build your own full elite unit stack to be able to resist in such numeric inferiority.

[Jearon]

If you think like that you can still build a single elite army whit some limitations.

The first thing that bothered me is that I coudn't find the limitations, is it possebel to see how manny of each stack you can have and have somewhere? Maybe put it where the limite for agents is?

[Jearon]

Found a few things after testing, Ethere plageu claws and Rat ogres are set to 0 or it looks at garrisons as wel to to count the limite.

Also gutter runners and nightrunners don't have a limite, I can understand not putting a limite on Night runners (there basic skirmish/ranged units whit ok combat stats) Gutter runners are beter, there the elite version of them (and they come in normal and posion).

[Lord Somewhere Out In Space]

Found a few things after testing, Ethere plageu claws and Rat ogres are set to 0 or it looks at garrisons as wel to to count the limite.

Also gutter runners and nightrunners don't have a limite, I can understand not putting a limite on Night runners (there basic skirmish/ranged units whit ok combat stats) Gutter runners are beter, there the elite version of them (and they come in normal and posion).

So, let's go !

1- There is no UI dedicated to show how high the cap is in the vanilla game, sorry
2 - Oï, that's a problem. I will try to get the same result as you on my save. Maybe the game considers garrisons as recruitment ? That is weird.
3 - You're right, I should limit Gutter Runners and Death Runners

I'll be testing and fixing it soon anyway