Were There Any Major Pre-Islamic Persian Scholar/Scientist?

[pancasilais1945]

Persia was supposed to have a magnificent civilization that was advanced in science and art way before the arrival of Islam.

However, during my discussion with a Muslim, he pointed out that the Islamic Golden Age was mainly due to Islam. Pre-Islamic Persian Civilization was minuscule compared to Islamic Persian Civilization. As a proof he argued that if Pre-Islamic Persian Civilization was so great, how come there is very few if any at all well-known Pre-Islamic Persian great scholars/scientists? All the most famous Persian scholars/scientists were Islamic.

Personally I cannot believe such a great ancient civilization could have no name to mention in the field of science compared to ancient Indian, Greek, Roman or Chinese Civilization. But when I tried to do some research on my own, I did find it difficult to find any. All notable Persian scientists were all Islamic.

So is it true then prior to Islam, Persian Civilization was not so great after all?

[Roma_Victrix]

LOL. Your friend sounds like he doesn't know very much. For starters, it took some genius architectural engineers to construct the tombs, domes, arches, and barrel vaults of the Achaemenid, Parthian and Sasanian Empires. From what I remember, their names have unfortunately not been preserved for posterity. However, many of their monuments in stone and brick still remain, albeit in ruins (and unfortunately ISIS has played a role in erasing that history by leveling the ruins of Hatra to the ground).

The earliest scholarship, outside of simple record-keeping, perhaps centered around the ancient Avestas. Zoroaster himself is traditionally credited with writing the Gathas and Yasna Haptanghaiti. Iranian mythology, especially the tales about Rostam, had a recorded long history before Ferdowsi ever compiled the Shahnameh in the late 10th century. In fact, only small bits of that work are his original writings; the vast majority is collated material from earlier books. For instance, Ferdowsi relied heavily on the Sasanian-Persian universal history book Khwaday-Namag, compiled during the reign of Yazdegerd III (r. 632–651 AD) but perhaps existed as far back as the reign of Khosrau I, who was the greatest patron of native Persian scholarship before Islamic times.

Following the success of the 5th-century AD School of Nisibis under Persian control, in the 6th century AD, Khosrau I (r. 531-579) established the Academy of Gondishapur. It was here the Greco-Roman literary, philosophical, medicinal, mathematical and scientific treatises were translated into Syriac and Pahlavi. They also built on the legacy of the ancient Babylonians of Mesopotamia, and invited scholars from India and China to study and translate at this school. It attracted prominent theologians such as Rabban Hormizd and even the Nestorian Patriarch Timothy I. It was also during the reign of Khosrau I that the Sasanian Persian physician Borzuya was active. He was responsible for translating the Indian Panchatantra from Sanskrit into Pahlavi, well before Ibn al-Muqaffa' translated it into Arabic in the 8th century.

There are obvious reasons why a lot of pre-Islamic Persian literature no longer exists. We know that much of it was destroyed when the library and archives of Persepolis were burned down by Alexander the Great's soldiers in the 4th century BC. After that, the overwhelming Hellenistic cultural influence over West Asia stifled a lot of native Persian motivation to continue traditional scholarship. This was revived by the Parthians to an extent, and saw a virtual renaissance under the Sasanians, but the Islamic caliphate that supplanted the Sasanian Empire perhaps actively destroyed a lot of literature deemed pagan and heretical. The evidence for that is that a lot of Zoroastrian texts only survived after being preserved in the distant exiled communities of Zoroastrians far from their Persian homeland, such as the Parni in India.

There's also this to consider: the Baghdad Battery, discovered near old Ctesiphon, a primitive battery dated to the Sasanian period:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baghdad_Battery

[hellheaven1987]

For starters, it took some genius architectural engineers to construct the tombs, domes, arches, and barrel vaults of the Achaemenid, Parthian and Sasanian Empires.

MAY BE it was designed by GREEK?!

[Roma_Victrix]

In my post above, I entirely forgot to mention Mani (216-274 AD), who, in addition to being the prophet of his own religion (Manichaeism), was a prolific scholar as well. In addition to the six Syriac-language works that he penned, he also wrote the Shabuhragan in Middle Persian (Pahlavi), a work he dedicated to the Sasanian ruler Shapur I the Great (r. 240-270 AD).

MAY BE it was designed by GREEK?!

Some architects of the Parthian and Sasanian empires were almost certainly ethnic Greeks, but certainly not all of them, and I doubt there were very many Greeks in the heartlands of the earlier Achaemenid Empire. Sure, the Achaemenids ruled over Greek communities in Anatolia/Asia Minor (modern Turkey), but the Levant, Persia and Mesopotamia would have had very tiny Greek minority communities before the conquests of Alexander and establishment of the Seleucid Empire.

[hellheaven1987]

Some architects of the Parthian and Sasanian empires were almost certainly ethnic Greeks, but certainly not all of them, and I doubt there were very many Greeks in the heartlands of the earlier Achaemenid Empire. Sure, the Achaemenids ruled over Greek communities in Anatolia/Asia Minor (modern Turkey), but the Levant, Persia and Mesopotamia would have had very tiny Greek minority communities before the conquests of Alexander and establishment of the Seleucid Empire.

You know, you only need one designer to design something, and that dude might be a Greek.

But ya I was trolling, don't get too serious.

[pancasilais1945]

LOL. Your friend sounds like he doesn't know very much. For starters, it took some genius architectural engineers to construct the tombs, domes, arches, and barrel vaults of the Achaemenid, Parthian and Sasanian Empires. From what I remember, their names have unfortunately not been preserved for posterity. However, many of their monuments in stone and brick still remain, albeit in ruins (and unfortunately ISIS has played a role in erasing that history by leveling the ruins of Hatra to the ground).

The earliest scholarship, outside of simple record-keeping, perhaps centered around the ancient Avestas. Zoroaster himself is traditionally credited with writing the Gathas and Yasna Haptanghaiti. Iranian mythology, especially the tales about Rostam, had a recorded long history before Ferdowsi ever compiled the Shahnameh in the late 10th century. In fact, only small bits of that work are his original writings; the vast majority is collated material from earlier books. For instance, Ferdowsi relied heavily on the Sasanian-Persian universal history book Khwaday-Namag, compiled during the reign of Yazdegerd III (r. 632–651 AD) but perhaps existed as far back as the reign of Khosrau I, who was the greatest patron of native Persian scholarship before Islamic times.

Following the success of the 5th-century AD School of Nisibis under Persian control, in the 6th century AD, Khosrau I (r. 531-579) established the Academy of Gondishapur. It was here the Greco-Roman literary, philosophical, medicinal, mathematical and scientific treatises were translated into Syriac and Pahlavi. They also built on the legacy of the ancient Babylonians of Mesopotamia, and invited scholars from India and China to study and translate at this school. It attracted prominent theologians such as Rabban Hormizd and even the Nestorian Patriarch Timothy I. It was also during the reign of Khosrau I that the Sasanian Persian physician Borzuya was active. He was responsible for translating the Indian Panchatantra from Sanskrit into Pahlavi, well before Ibn al-Muqaffa' translated it into Arabic in the 8th century.

There are obvious reasons why a lot of pre-Islamic Persian literature no longer exists. We know that much of it was destroyed when the library and archives of Persepolis were burned down by Alexander the Great's soldiers in the 4th century BC. After that, the overwhelming Hellenistic cultural influence over West Asia stifled a lot of native Persian motivation to continue traditional scholarship. This was revived by the Parthians to an extent, and saw a virtual renaissance under the Sasanians, but the Islamic caliphate that supplanted the Sasanian Empire perhaps actively destroyed a lot of literature deemed pagan and heretical. The evidence for that is that a lot of Zoroastrian texts only survived after being preserved in the distant exiled communities of Zoroastrians far from their Persian homeland, such as the Parni in India.

There's also this to consider: the Baghdad Battery, discovered near old Ctesiphon, a primitive battery dated to the Sasanian period:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baghdad_Battery

I suspected that much that the reason not many Pre-Islamic Persian historical texts can be found was due to the Muslims destroying books that were not in keeping with Islam's religious belief such as what Caliph Umar was said to have done when he destroyed books at the Library of Alexandria. But at least the Muslims were not as barbaric as the Mongols I guess who threw all the books of the Library of Baghdad into the sea without sparing any.

Now my question is that was it common for civilizations that came under the rule of Islamic Caliphates/Sultanates to have their histories erased systematically like Persia?

[hellheaven1987]

Now my question is that was it common for civilizations that came under the rule of Muslim Caliphates/Sultanates to have their histories erased systematically like Persia?

No, at least not the People of the Book; the reason was likely because Zoroastrians did not have a proper role in early Islamic teaching so Arab conquerors viewed them as some sore of free game unlike the People of the Book. It is notable even modern Muslims still hold this view when dealing other cultures.

[pancasilais1945]

No, at least not the People of the Book; the reason was likely because Zoroastrians did not have a proper role in early Islamic teaching so Arab conquerors viewed them as some sore of free game unlike the People of the Book. It is notable even modern Muslims still hold this view when dealing other cultures.

How about their conquest of Hindu India?

[hellheaven1987]

How about their conquest of Hindu India?

Was brutal; I remember Delhi Sultanate actively persecuted Hindus, and not to mention Timur's Hindu skull pyramid. It seems only Mughal can be called as tolerable, although European accounts still mention limited persecutions against Hindu by Mughal rulers.

[Roma_Victrix]

I suspected that much that the reason not many Pre-Islamic Persian historical texts can be found was due to the Muslims destroying books that were not in keeping with Islam's religious belief such as what Caliph Umar was said to have done when he destroyed books at the Library of Alexandria. But at least the Muslims were not as barbaric as the Mongols I guess who threw all the books of the Library of Baghdad into the sea without sparing any.

Now my question is that was it common for civilizations that came under the rule of Islamic Caliphates/Sultanates to have their histories erased systematically like Persia?

Yes and no; it was a mixed bag, really. Hellheaven1987 provided some good examples, although I suppose instances where Islam did pretty much erase or overwhelm previous religions and cultures would include the disappearance of the religious diversity among the Sogdians of Central Asia and northwestern China. They practiced various faiths, including Zoroastrianism, Nestorian Christianity, Manichaeanism, and Buddhism.

Speaking of Buddhism and my point above about Borzuya translating the Panchatantra from Sanskrit to Pahlavi, there was an interesting Parthian Buddhist monk of the 2nd century AD who traveled to Han-dynasty China and translated Buddhist texts into Chinese. His name was An Shigao, allegedly a Parthian prince who gave up his life of royal privilege in order to serve as a missionary in East Asia. Many of the earliest-recorded Buddhist sutras in Chinese are attributed to him.

It wouldn't be the last time a Persian prince found himself living in China, either. For instance, Peroz III (636-679 AD) fled to Tang-dynasty China as a political exile once the Islamic Rashidun Caliphate conquered Sasanian Persia. He was granted Chinese noble titles and lived comfortably among his Chinese hosts, with an unfulfilled aim to reconquer his lost homeland.

[LinusLinothorax]

Now my question is that was it common for civilizations that came under the rule of Islamic Caliphates/Sultanates to have their histories erased systematically like Persia?

and not to mention Timur's Hindu skull pyramid.

Timur is actually the prime example for the attempted eradication of non-muslim cultures and religions. Easily one of the most brutal and fanatic warlords of Muslim history. Ahmad Gran of Adal is also a good guess, though in the end he was not only not succesful, but would his defeat mark the definite end of any attempts for Muslim hegemony in the northern Horn of Africa, too.

[hellheaven1987]

Islam did pretty much erase or overwhelm previous religions and cultures would include the disappearance of the religious diversity among the Sogdians of Central Asia and northwestern China.

WE WUZ TENGRIST!!

I do find the revive of Tengrism in modern Central Asia a weird development though.

[athanaric]

Timur is actually the prime example for the attempted eradication of non-muslim cultures and religions. Easily one of the most brutal and fanatic warlords of Muslim history.

Not just Muslim history, world history. AFAIK he was generally regarded as one of the worst people in history, perhaps even the worst (even by Europeans, who had hardly suffered from his deeds!), before Adolf Hitler and others appeared during the 20th century.

[The Gurkhan]

Timur is actually the prime example for the attempted eradication of non-muslim cultures and religions. Easily one of the most brutal and fanatic warlords of Muslim history. Ahmad Gran of Adal is also a good guess, though in the end he was not only not succesful, but would his defeat mark the definite end of any attempts for Muslim hegemony in the northern Horn of Africa, too.

Timur was a plunderer interested in furthering his own Samarkand power base at the expense of defeated foes. Sacking Muslim as well as non-Muslim often on very cynical pretext. The guff about fanatical eradication as an aim in of itself is just you editorializing history and twisting what was a well trodden steppe tradition.

That being said he was without a doubt the most alpha of men. I say the scars he has left in the psyche of many anti-Islam advocates through the ages almost makes up for his excesses.

As for al-Ghazi, you're just listing off Muslim figures you hate (i.e all of them). What the conflict between Abyssinian and Somali entities which is analogous to any old European medieval state rivalry has to do with anything is beyond me.

That the thread has to ask the question is telling I think. Was it because all that great pre-Islamic Persian achievement was obliterated by the scheming evil Arab? We Wuz Shahs.

Or could it just be that the Persians achieved more under the sway of this religion than they ever did previously?

[Roma_Victrix]

Or could it just be that the Persians achieved more under the sway of this religion than they ever did previously?

I think it's obviously undeniable that there was a much stronger tradition of scholarship and scientific output in Persia after the Muslim conquest. The OP, however, was completely unsure if there was ANY tradition of scholarship beforehand, a misunderstanding that I hopefully cleared up in my post above. For that matter, Islamic science and mathematics were heavily indebted to the Greco-Roman tradition, but the same can easily be said for medieval Europe and Christendom after the fall of the Western Roman Empire (and for that matter, the fall of the Eastern Roman Empire as well). The Islamic world and that of Christendom made their own advances in the sciences, but they also benefited from mathematical achievements made in Hindu India and technologies originally invented in China. In that same token, the Chinese and Indians also received knowledge and technical know-how from the Arabs/Persians.

For instance, the Chinese had waterwheels and hydraulic powered machinery since ancient times (i.e. Han Dynasty), but they learned the art of creating and using windmills and harnessing wind power from the Arabs via Central Asia. However, this was a few centuries after the Arabs discovered the Chinese art of paper-making, thanks to the 8th-century Battle of Talas. Paper-making then spread to medieval Europe by the 12th century, where water-powered paper mills were established based on the Islamic practice (although water mills proper had existed in Europe since Greco-Roman times).

[LinusLinothorax]

Timur was a plunderer interested in furthering his own Samarkand power base at the expense of defeated foes. Sacking Muslim as well as non-Muslim often on very cynical pretext. The guff about fanatical eradication as an aim in of itself is just you editorializing history and twisting what was a well trodden steppe tradition.

That being said he was without a doubt the most alpha of men. I say the scars he has left in the psyche of many anti-Islam advocates through the ages almost makes up for his excesses.

As for al-Ghazi, you're just listing off Muslim figures you hate (i.e all of them). What the conflict between Abyssinian and Somali entities which is analogous to any old European medieval state rivalry has to do with anything is beyond me.

Interesting.

[TerryLewis]

Originally Posted by BrutalKing
Some people just don't believe that there was an Iranian Golden Age and later an Islamic Golden Age - it was actually considered a continuation. But I'm looking for the authors list of pre-Islamic Pahlavi books reviewed by essay writing service or anything that can lead me to pre-Islamic Persia and its scientific tradition. Further on: there was Academy of Gondishapur and its references to the existing scientific contributions from the Sassanid empire.

It's just a myth that pre-Islamic Persia lacks the evidence of scientific tradition. You may check the alphabetical listing of Pre-modern Era Persian Scholars and Scientists on Geni (official portal).

[Common Soldier]

No, at least not the People of the Book; the reason was likely because Zoroastrians did not have a proper role in early Islamic teaching so Arab conquerors viewed them as some sore of free game unlike the People of the Book. It is notable even modern Muslims still hold this view when dealing other cultures.

When it came to Christians and Jews, People of thr Books, there were large Christians states and large number of outside of Muslim control, so even if Muslims tried to erase their history, they would fail. Since there were no large Persian country outside Islam control, therer was no on to preserve pre Islamic works the same way.


But rather than deliberately destroying pre-Islamic writings, the shift to the new Arabic script meant that unless someone too the great effort to recopy them into the new script, these pre-Islamic works would become unreadable after the old generation passed away and lost. Muslims seem to have a low regard for pre-Ialamic Persian civilization, so I doubt Muslims would have spent effort in preserving the pre-Islamic works. By not translating pre-islamic writings to just fade away, and Pre-Islamc achievements could eventually came to be thought of Muslim ones, something not possible with those of the Greeks and Romans, because the contries Muslims did not control would preserve the truth.



While Muslims had the reputation of preserving the works of the ancient Greeks, that really applied only to useful works of science, medicine, mathematics and philosphy. They did not preserve as well works of literature and history.

[Cyclops]

I believe in Islamic tradition Salman the Persian (a companion of the prophet) was educated as a magi and engaged in discussion with Christians and Jews before his conversion. He surely ranks as a major scholar who began his career before the Hegira, a demonstrates an existing Zoroastrian cultural complex.

The city of Taxila had a scholarly place of learning amounting to a university: it lies at the border of Indian and Persian civilisation with a dose of Hellenism for sure, but once again demonstrates a large body of literate scholars within the great Persian cultural sphere.

Terry Lewis has given a decent source for actual names but even the most superficial knowledge of ancient and medieval history indicates there was a substantial corpus of Persian literature and study, probably including mathematics, as well as dialogue with other traditions (especially Hellenistic, Indian and later Islamic).

[kambiz]

Or could it just be that the Persians achieved more under the sway of this religion than they ever did previously?

All the remaining evidences like structures and buildings as well as many monuments ,reliefs and hundereds of thousands of artifacts just show pre-inslamic Iranian culture and civilisation was no less than other major civilisations at the time , but when it comes scientific literatures and figures there's suddenly a hole in this part of the world before the islamic invasion ! then decades after we witness burst of Iranian scholars and even iranians were employed by Caliphs in order to help them administer their now massive realm and muslims exploit this by claiming that Islam was the cause of immense increase in number of iranian scholars ! Well I DO NOT buy this claim at all.

Actually when I looking for the reason of this ,I suggest to look at the order of events during expansion of islam. what/who was their first target? it was of course Sassanid Empire. Already converted to Islam and thus filled with much enthusiasm and passion to spread their true faith so Iran was hit with masses of these fanatic muslim invaders. This did not happen to Romans(and Greeks) as well as China which was so far away. Even India was attacked much later when things getting cooled down and invaders gradually settling down in cities and rural areas and were distancing away of their early desert life !

so perhaps @The Gurkhan ,we should ask our peace-loving muslims that what they done during their conquest of Iran???