So about the Cursus Honorum...

[King Ramses]

I really like to roleplay in Total War games, I like to try to think like the faction I'm playing would and act accordingly when I play a campaign.

So naturally I really want to engage with the Cursus Honorum mechanics as fully as possible, but I always find it rather tedious, and as time goes on I find it *breaks* my immersion more than enhancing it.

The primary reason for this is that characters need to be in Rome in order to qualify for office, but this gets extremely unwieldy, even when you don't have a large Empire. Within the framework of Total War, I can't really keep bringing family members to and from Rome every year as it leaves armies leaderless and cities without governership. This is compounded by the fact that returning to Rome often takes upwards of 6 months in game terms, which is of course silly. Realistically, an army could move wayyyyyy further every three months than Total War allows, and a single person journeying to Rome for an election? From any point on the map, if we're talking historical accuracy, it would never take more than three months to get to Rome for an aspiring Quaestor, Aedile, Praetor, Consul etc.

Essentially, how can I juggle my family members in such a way as to reasonably replicate the Roman system of "who gets to lead armies and govern places" while also ensuring my faction members gain proper experience without descending into the tedium of ahistorical micromanagement? Is it even possible once you're Empire stretches far beyond Italy? How do more experienced players who know how this works better than I do manage their faction members?

Thanks!

[Hummer]

The Pro Praetor and ProConsul traits extend Imperium for another 4 years (16 turns I think) so you get either 4 or 5 years of Imperium when added to the Praetor and Consul traits. That's tons of time.

There's also Imperium given to Provincial governors. So a FM who is a governor of a city in a traditional roman province (example in Iberia) can have Imperium and lead the army in a defensive battle before your new Consul comes back to lead the army in offensive maneuvers. Use the governor with Imperium in defense while you switch your Consuls in and out.

I sort of do this.

[The First]

Currently there is no easy way of doing this. You basically have to choose your best FMs to pursue the Cursus Honorum. The FMs with poor traits might not be worth the effort and journey to and fro from Rome. Or you could say that only the FMs closest to Italy (or close to the shore) would pursue the Cursus. the others further out probably were never born in Italy in the first place. Probably a mix of both factors: "Trait Quality" and "Distance from Capital" are what I focus on.

What I try and do is group aspiring FMs into "classes", especially in times of peace or only light warfare. A group of 2-3 similarly aged FMs who travel together. It makes it easier to track them, and I usually keep them together in the same region of the globe (as in "Gaul", or "Greece", or something like that). By making it piecemeal, I find it easier to visualise the storylines of the FMs.

Basically, the best way is to change your expectations of how the Cursus should play in your game. Focus on the FMs that YOU feel should have an impact on your game. It's been a while since I played SPQR, though, so my view on the Cursus may have slightly warped since.

Short of making a winter trait that says "your governor is in Rome and therefore cannot move" (like the Olympic games(?)), I don't know on how else to do it.

[QuintusSertorius]

Hummer has the right of it, promagistracies are the vehicle that allows this, only those who've been praetors and consuls should actually be governors of distant provinces in the first place. They should have Quaestor seconds hanging around to help out when they're being shuttled back to Rome at the end of their term.

[myarta]

The unrealistic travel times that you mentioned (takes too long to get back to Rome) of course have to stay in place or people would be doing deep strikes into enemy territory over the course of a turn before they could even begin to respond since it's not their turn. So its balanced by the extended duration of pro-magistracies which normally wouldn't last five years.

However, once you do get a bit of a rotation going, you do have to move SOMEONE every 4 turns and yeah, honestly it does get to be quite tedious after a while. It's hard to get all the way to Marian if you're trying to rotate your people, though I suppose some people just ignore it for some of their chars as people mentioned. I keep a chart. Here's a sample of one of mine from last month when I played a longer Romani campaign last:

Move to Rome:
        T. A. Papvs (7)         3E/3/2  -2              
        M. C. Pulcher (7)       1/4/4F  0               
        N. P. Maso (10)         3E/3/3  -1S             
        P. V. Maximus (10)      3E/4/4F -1/2            
        P. C. Pulcher (10DH)    2/5/4F  -1S             
Praetors:
        D. F. Labeo (7)         3E/3/3  0               GOV: AFRICA VETUS (Carthago)
Propraetors:
    II:


    III:


    IV:


    V:
        Q. A. Cotta (1Pl)       4E/4/2  0               GOV: SICILIA (Syracusae)
Consul: 
        K. A. Barbula (10)      5/3/5F  -3              Tarentum -> 24k
        N. V. Laevinus (10)     4E/3/4F -1              GOV: MACEDONIA (Ambrakia) 
        S. C. Pulcher (6)       3E/4/2  -1              //good at pacif, maybe move back to cisalpina (and take carnifex back)
        N. A. Cotta (8Pl)       3E/3/4F -1              Eru dev (already b-crat tier 1)
Proconsul:  
        C. C. Sulla (10)        4/3/4F  0               GOV: CISALPINA (Bagiennorum)   ** Six Star **
        T. A. Cotta (8Pl)       2/3/4F  0               
        T. C. Scipio (10L)      5E/2/3F 0               LEGIO III (Free City Mercs/Libyan) Illyria
    II:
        C. V. Falto (10)                -1/2            GOV: ACHAEA (Athenai)  Athens -> 24k
    III:
        C. A. Regulus (3Pl)     2/3/3   0               GOV: CORSAR (Caralis)
        N. L. Nerva (10Pl)              0               
        A. A. Papus (10)                -1              
        S. C. Cinna (9)                 -2              Capua -> 24k        
        M. A. Regulus (8Pl)             0               LEGIO II (Polybian)  --> Illyria
        M. V. Maximus (10H)             -1              LEGIO I (Free City Mercs/Greek)  Illyria            ** TRIUMPH ** (free in spring)
        Q. F. Maximus (10)              -2              
        C. A. Cotta (3Pl)               -2/3            Rhegium -> 24k
    IV:
        T. S. Esquilinus (8)    4/5/3   0               
        A. C. Nero (7)          3E/3/3  -1              GOV: AFRICA NOVA (Leptis Magna)
        P. C. S. Asina (9)      4E/3/2  -1              
    V:
        K. A. Cotta (0Pl)       4S/2/3  0

So you see, I have the name, then the influence score (helps me at a glance to decide which generals are going to be better at inculturation if a mission calls for it), a Pl to mark Plebeians next to the influence (to help explain why it's low for some people), or a DH for Designated Heir (the script), H for Heir, L for leader. Then in the middle is their Intelligence/Charisma/Energy. The base game shows you only if someone is in the top half or the bottom half of their "class" as it were at those things. I made a submod some time back to show the actual code ratings which divide people into 5 parts instead of 2. I don't think it's super unreasonable to know which fifth of the class someone's abilities are, but anyway, digressing. E after the intelligence marks Erudition, suggesting this well-educated individual would benefit from staying in a settlement with an advanced school (more than just the first tier building, last I checked at least) if he doesn't have any other missions to perform. F after energy stands for Forced Marching Expert. Those without this are less likely to be picked as replacement generals of far flung legions, or your advance will grind to a halt. Next field is squalor impact: 0, -1, -2 etc. This is crucial as you NEED a good growth rate general to get cities to 6k, and then again to 24k (you can get 12k just with the buildings that 6k unlocks, especially after you reach 60% culture and can integrate the Socii into Ius Latium government which unlocks a granary upgrade). Finally on the far right is the current assignment. Blank lines mean no assignment.

Then we have at the top people who have to be moved back to Rome for an election, then the current Praetors, then the five years of Propraetorship, current Consuls, five years of Proconsulship etc. So every winter when I hit end turn, each section gets cut and pasted. The people under a V go up to the 'move to Rome' section and they will pop up an 'Eligible for X' trait once my turn starts. People under IV go to V, working from bottom up. Praetors go between Propraetor and the II, and so on. Yeah, it's tedious to do this every 4 turns. But otherwise you can get caught unawares with a general in Africa and no boats nearby and miss your election and have to try again the next year. Ok, so maybe that's not a big deal, you might say, but it has the nasty side effect of possibly clumping him with another "year" group of eligible generals that is already too big, and you don't want that. On the one hand, having to move people every 4 turns because they're all evenly spread out across the 5 years of promagistry gets annoying, but on the other, look at my Proconsul III group. The people in the Proconsul IV group ahead of it will just have had their election results the same year the whole mass of PC3's need to go back home, and the newly re-elected PC4s be ready to take over their assignments. I'll have only three gentlemen to work with and one governorship and two legion commands to fill. That means Capua and Rhegium supervision to grow to 24k will have no one available to assign to them when S. C. Cinna and C. A. Cotta have to go home. Fortunately those aren't crucial jobs, so I will leave them unfilled for a couple of seasons as those generals walk to Rome and then just put those men back in those jobs after they win their election. But, a nice even spread of a few new appointees and a few people needing to move back, passing the baton to the new electees, makes for a smoother experience where you aren't suddenly scrambling to fill 6 positions every 5 years.

EDIT: Trying to keep the columns aligned when pasted here.

[myarta]

PS. I realize a lot of them are very high influence. Their careers are carefully curated. It's one of the few rewards for doing all this insanity of bookkeeping that makes it worthwhile. Please don't nerf it.

[QuintusSertorius]

The other thing that greatly aids their movement is move the FM alone (ie with no units) and stick them on a ship.

[The First]

I just noticed that the Player's Guide 2.3 says that elections are held every 2 years. Was it always like this? Seeing as all the offices are just 1 year long, that means that there is 1 year where no one has any offices. Or I might be completely confused and barking up the wrong tree...

[QuintusSertorius]

I just noticed that the Player's Guide 2.3 says that elections are held every 2 years. Was it always like this? Seeing as all the offices are just 1 year long, that means that there is 1 year where no one has any offices. Or I might be completely confused and barking up the wrong tree...

Elections are every winter, that might be a typo. More important than the length of the office is the length of the promagisterial term afterwards - four years for propraetors and proconsuls. That's the time in which they can be active, making sure you get them back before that 4 years is up for a new remit.

[NosPortatArma]

Has the team ever considered to just drop the requirement that FMs need to be in rome to qualify for offices? Wouldn't the cursus work fine without it? it seems to me that EB2 already has to make plenty of compromises with historical accuracy, since it's a game and the engine has limitations. It is undoubtedly a hassle to ship FMs to and from rome all the time, and it only becomes worse as you expand. It is a hassle which amounts to tedious micromanagement, and which also fails at being historically accurate anyways since mtw2 engine simply can't allow FMs to travel as quickly as would be realistically required. Is it then not a better solution to just drop the requirement, and get rid of the tedious and not-so-realistic micromanagement?

[QuintusSertorius]

Has the team ever considered to just drop the requirement that FMs need to be in rome to qualify for offices? Wouldn't the cursus work fine without it? it seems to me that EB2 already has to make plenty of compromises with historical accuracy, since it's a game and the engine has limitations. It is undoubtedly a hassle to ship FMs to and from rome all the time, and it only becomes worse as you expand. It is a hassle which amounts to tedious micromanagement, and which also fails at being historically accurate anyways since mtw2 engine simply can't allow FMs to travel as quickly as would be realistically required. Is it then not a better solution to just drop the requirement, and get rid of the tedious and not-so-realistic micromanagement?

Not happening, when you've already got all the means outlined. Promagistracies. You have 4 years (16 turns) to use your propraetors and proconsuls, which is more than enough time (four winters worth of opportunities) to get a replacement in place.

Becoming worse as you expand is the very problem the Romans faced, and adds some difficulty (not to mention strategic tension) to what is the easiest faction in the game. If that requirement to get a mandate bothers people so much, play another faction. There's 27 others.

[NosPortatArma]

Not happening, when you've already got all the means outlined. Promagistracies. You have 4 years (16 turns) to use your propraetors and proconsuls, which is more than enough time (four winters worth of opportunities) to get a replacement in place.

Becoming worse as you expand is the very problem the Romans faced, and adds some difficulty (not to mention strategic tension) to what is the easiest faction in the game. If that requirement to get a mandate bothers people so much, play another faction. There's 27 others.

It is not just a matter of having frontline generals with imperium. That is tedious enough, but there are other offices besides pratetor and consul, which still require a trip to rome. For players who just want to advance the cursus for benefits or for roleplay, it's a mess having to shuffle governors and generals around all the time. If the player needs to do paperwork (like myarta) just to be able to use the mechanic properly... I'd say it's broken, because most people don't want to do that. You are basically spoiling what could be a very good mechanic, by forcing the player to do tedious work. And note, that this is not very difficult, it's just boring and tedious, and for your average player it is off-putting. It is not a good way to increase difficulty, by making the game a chore.

If this is a problem the romans faced historically, there has to be better ways to represent it than this. Because as i've said, current way is tedious and not historically accurate anyways, for FMs simply cannot travel in mtw2 as fast or far as they did historically. Maybe have it so that FMs must spend a turn in any city to qualify for office, to represent how they take a ship to rome and back. Maybe add that the city must have roman government, and be coastal, and have a port, etc. Point is, there are other ways, and they are less tedious and just as "realistic".

[QuintusSertorius]

It is not just a matter of having frontline generals with imperium. That is tedious enough, but there are other offices besides pratetor and consul, which still require a trip to rome. For players who just want to advance the cursus for benefits or for roleplay, it's a mess having to shuffle governors and generals around all the time. If the player needs to do paperwork (like myarta) just to be able to use the mechanic properly... I'd say it's broken, because most people don't want to do that. You are basically spoiling what could be a very good mechanic, by forcing the player to do tedious work. And note, that this is not very difficult, it's just boring and tedious, and for your average player it is off-putting. It is not a good way to increase difficulty, by making the game a chore.

If this is a problem the romans faced historically, there has to be better ways to represent it than this. Because as i've said, current way is tedious and not historically accurate anyways, for FMs simply cannot travel in mtw2 as fast or far as they did historically. Maybe have it so that FMs must spend a turn in any city to qualify for office, to represent how they take a ship to rome and back. Maybe add that the city must have roman government, and be coastal, and have a port, etc. Point is, there are other ways, and they are less tedious and just as "realistic".

You've missed the point; holders of lesser offices shouldn't be provincial governors or generals acting independently in the first place. So they're irrelevant in this consideration. At best a quaestor might be a legate or other stand-in to cover for his boss while that propraetor/proconsul is heading back to Rome for a new mandate. They shouldn't be operators in their own right.

[Lancastrius Maximus]

I've seen the travel times brought up here many times, but a while ago I saw someone make the suggestion of massively increasing movement points for a character that is eligible for election.
Wouldn't this provide a solution?
The character in question would only be able to use the extra movement if they were alone (since the army only moves as fast as its slowest troops), so it couldn't be used for "deep strikes" into enemy territory.

[NosPortatArma]

I've seen the travel times brought up here many times, but a while ago I saw someone make the suggestion of massively increasing movement points for a character that is eligible for election.
Wouldn't this provide a solution?
The character in question would only be able to use the extra movement if they were alone (since the army only moves as fast as its slowest troops), so it couldn't be used for "deep strikes" into enemy territory.

what if that FM moves deep into enemy lands, then buys mercenaries?

[Lancastrius Maximus]

what if that FM moves deep into enemy lands, then buys mercenaries?

I see what you mean, but maybe the "Eligible" trait could also prevent that character from hiring mercs? (No idea if this is possible, just throwing ideas out).

Even if this can't be done, there are other examples of players being advised not to take advantage of certain situations (like blitzing the AI before they can get a foothold/sticking to historic army compositions etc.), so it may take a little more self discipline on the part of the human player.

[NosPortatArma]

You've missed the point; holders of lesser offices shouldn't be provincial governors or generals acting independently in the first place. So they're irrelevant in this consideration. At best a quaestor might be a legate or other stand-in to cover for his boss while that propraetor/proconsul is heading back to Rome for a new mandate. They shouldn't be operators in their own right.

Right, so what are you supposed to do with the rest of your FMs? Just have them loiter in Rome? And then you have to still keep track of which FMs to leave loitering in Rome, and which to send out to provinces, because that changes every 4 turns. Your average player will keep good track of a handful of FMs: the leader, heir, skilled general/governor. Less important FMs are typically just sent to govern some less important city. EB force them to keep track of everyone, and to shuffle them around all the time. That is perhaps something which a dedicated roleplayer thinks is fun, but your average player does not.

I roleplay to an extent.. But I don't want to have to do bookkeeping just to use the mechanic. I think it's fun to look into the details of characters sometimes, but i don't want to have to keep track of all that detail myself.

Forget "Imperium" for a minute. The Cursus Honorum offers a SIGNIFICANT benefit to the player who follows it, by providing all sorts of bonuses that improve governing capability (i.e. by improving order). This is especially useful as the empire expands into culturally different regions. As such, it's a feature you don't get with other factions, and if it's too much bother for you, well so be it. As Quintus notes, we are not going to extend the awarding of offices to cities other than Rome itself.

As a player, you have the choice of roleplaying your FMs and thus gaining these benefits, or ignoring it altogether. As for the warfare element, you can fight battles just as successfully without Imperium as you can with it, and we don't impose any penalties for doing so (other than the in-battle maluses, which are largely insignificant to the human player who usually beats the hell out of the BAI regardless). And the reason we don't impose campaign map penalties on non-Imperium FMs is ENTIRELY so as to make use of the Cursus Honorum, optional.

So use it or not - totally your choice - but there's nothing game-breaking if you don't, and we aren't altering the mechanism.

of course it's optional.. but why ruin an otherwise good mechanic by making it into a chore? hardcore roleplayers might like it, but people who like to rp moderately, but not do bookkeeping, will be put off. You are forcing them to super roleplay, or not roleplay at all. I think this just makes them apathetic. As in, they know there is an immersive mechanic for rome, but in order to use it they have to do chores. I certainly feel that way. No it's not game breaking, but it is bad game design. But in addition as has been said (e.g in OP), it's not very "historically accurate" either. So if it's not more historical accurate, and it's poor game design, and a chore which only super roleplayers enjoy, why keep it? That's my point. if we removed the requirement, people who want to super roleplay can easily just send all FMs to rome anyways if they really want. Currently, people who don't want super roleplay don't have a choice.

I see what you mean, but maybe the "Eligible" trait could also prevent that character from hiring mercs? (No idea if this is possible, just throwing ideas out).

Even if this can't be done, there are other examples of players being advised not to take advantage of certain situations (like blitzing the AI before they can get a foothold/sticking to historic army compositions etc.), so it may take a little more self discipline on the part of the human player.

not an elegant solution, and i'm sure there's other things a single FM with huge movement can do... like just besieging cities (AI tends to leave small garrisons), and then maye buy mercs when they're not eligible anymore (if they can even lose eligibility that is, idk). point is, i think there are many possible exploits with huge movement, it just creates more problems than it solves.

[myarta]

I tend to agree with NosPortatArma here. I appreciate the work QS and Kull have done, but I also understand that long form campaigns are not often played by the team due to development requiring starting new campaigns a lot. I love playing the Romani, and I wouldn't want to skip the offices system as it's a core part of their RP. But if you haven't had to keep up with these spreadsheets to use it effectively every 4 turns, you may not realize how tedious it starts to get in the 200s. Not like "well I'm glad this is simulating the difficulty of managing a larger empire", but more like "I love this faction but this is getting pretty repetitive, shuffling people here and there." It makes me want to save my game and start over as someone else, and then I can just blissfully play as them without it being a huge chore.

It's not too bad in the first 50-100 turns, especially since you only have a few generals, and you can just wait for the traits warning that they're eligible now to inform you that they should move to Rome, and your faction is small enough that you can get them back in a timely manner. But you start getting your bumper crop of coming of age / good marriage offers as you get later into the game and you end up with a much fuller list like I posted above in my spreadsheet, and now you're juggling a lot -- and that's even only with Italy, Sicily, and Cisalpina. As far as making the easiest faction easier, I think as you get along into the game, it doesn't make it harder in an immersive way that simulates the difficulties Romans had with expansion, but I think it makes it harder in the repetitive chore way, the same way QS feels about fighting the same basic battles far too often due to stack spam.

But obviously it's realistic to get elected in Rome, and though someone linked to a post of mine for how to change it, I've never actually played with a submod that removes the Rome restriction. I tough it out until the frog slowly coming up to a boil makes me get tired of messing with my spreadsheet every 4 turns, especially during a lull after my First Punic War, where I'm waiting for infrastructure, culture increases in Cisalpina/Illyria, and general consolidation of peace. On other factions, I'd hit end turn a lot until the next period of war gave more to do per turn, but it's hard to go at higher speed mode as Rome since you have to maintain this spreadsheet or get your generals jumbled up and not be able to use the system as effectively.

I don't know a good solution, though. I think for individuals who find this irritating, they can just implement privately what was linked above rather than asking the team to make system-wide changes. I just wanted to contribute that it may not seem as frustrating / tedious during the early phases for those who don't have time to play long campaigns since they're busy developing, as a possible explanation for at least part of the difference of opinion. And to add as I hope a reasonably respected commentator that it may be a little worse than imagined when you are into the high 200s of turns and have updated your spreadsheet and redistributed people every 4 turns many, many times in a row.

[Caymus]

I like this mechanic, but for those who don't there is a simple edit to the campaign script to change it as laid out by Myarta one of the many previous times this was brought up. Post #3884 in the FAQ thread.

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...=#post15183415

[Caymus]

I like this mechanic, but for those who don't there is a simple edit to the campaign script to change it as laid out by Myarta one of the many previous times this was brought up. Post #3884 in the FAQ thread.

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...=#post15183415

Its actually in the traits file not the campaign script.