View Poll Results: What shall we do with the Merchants?

Voters
21. You may not vote on this poll
  • Keep them as they currently are in game.

    2 9.52%
  • Remove them completely.

    8 38.10%
  • Rework them as per JoC's proposal (see post 31)

    11 52.38%
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Thread: MERCHANTS

  1. #41
    Lifthrasir's Avatar "Capre" Dunkerquois
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    Default Re: Merchants

    Adventurer guild would be completely "fancy" like the actual "explorer" guild for instance. If I remember correctly, I've mentionned my idea about guilds in the General Discussion thread a few weeks ago.
    Regarding the other economic guilds, I'd appreciate if we could have had a discussion about it before implementation.

    Anyway, to go back on the merchants case, pagan doesn't mean they didn't have any commercial "skills". On contrary, there were numerous trading posts recorded in their territories. I need to check but I'm pretty sure it was quite similar with Lithuania.
    How this would work for Serbia who starts with a single castle?
    How this work with Norway who is somehow underdevelopped compare to other Western factions but had quite good commercial relations with some other factions?
    If I take your mention of Venice, don't you think that North Italian cities have already quite a huge income compare to others? As far as I get it, your proposal would give them (Venetians) another bonus.

    I'm sorry but I can't get your view about merchants

  2. #42
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: Merchants

    Quote Originally Posted by Lifthrasir View Post
    Adventurer guild would be completely "fancy" like the actual "explorer" guild for instance. If I remember correctly, I've mentionned my idea about guilds in the General Discussion thread a few weeks ago.
    Regarding the other economic guilds, I'd appreciate if we could have had a discussion about it before implementation.
    I do fully agree with you. On both aspects. However, I'd just signal that for me the major problem with the guilds is related to the very mechanics: there're might be only 1 guild per settlement. In the medieval cities there're multiple guilds in a city, and very few cities would specialise in one trade. So how to make it feel historical... I don't know.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lifthrasir View Post
    Anyway, to go back on the merchants case, pagan doesn't mean they didn't have any commercial "skills". On contrary, there were numerous trading posts recorded in their territories. I need to check but I'm pretty sure it was quite similar with Lithuania.
    How this would work for Serbia who starts with a single castle?
    How this work with Norway who is somehow underdevelopped compare to other Western factions but had quite good commercial relations with some other factions?
    If I take your mention of Venice, don't you think that North Italian cities have already quite a huge income compare to others? As far as I get it, your proposal would give them (Venetians) another bonus.
    I'm sorry but I can't get your view about merchants
    The commercial part of any faction is reflected by the commercial buildings it can construct providing either an increase of trade or a straight income bonus. The merchants are about something different - giving the player a feel of a long distance trade. Look what Inchon writes:
    Quote Originally Posted by Ichon View Post
    Hansa might be better as a straight local income trade boost as that is essentially how it was historically- there weren't Hansa merchants traveling to Constantinople or competing with Italian city states for eastern trade.
    And I don't think the merchants will give a significant bonus - one merchant gives not so much money. It's what I meant in the previous post "a good game-crafting is based on giving the players "rewards" for their actions - even if sometimes the rewards are of little value."
    - gameplay-wise the bonus won't be so big (maybe 1-3% of budget, perhaps less).
    Besides, it might be decided not to give the "merchant republics" any additional merchant, and they'd have similar chances to get one from a Merchant Guild HQ.

  3. #43

    Default Re: Merchants

    Quote Originally Posted by Lifthrasir View Post
    Anyway, to go back on the merchants case, pagan doesn't mean they didn't have any commercial "skills". On contrary, there were numerous trading posts recorded in their territories. I need to check but I'm pretty sure it was quite similar with Lithuania.
    How this would work for Serbia who starts with a single castle?
    How this work with Norway who is somehow underdevelopped compare to other Western factions but had quite good commercial relations with some other factions?
    If I take your mention of Venice, don't you think that North Italian cities have already quite a huge income compare to others? As far as I get it, your proposal would give them (Venetians) another bonus.
    Shrugging a bit since it sort of feels like a "there's a campaign difficulty selector" kind of thing. For AIs obviously they can be given buffs (or given them in general).

    I sort of want to see what can be done with say the relatively efficient units of Lithuania (Perkunas) or maybe Hungary (Transilvanian Peasants) which feature upkeeps of like 150, compared to say 580 (Sergeant spearmen) or 1000-1500 (cavalry units). Since you can bring in reinforcements, taking multiple stacks of those could be hilarious.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jurand of Cracow View Post
    I do fully agree with you. On both aspects. However, I'd just signal that for me the major problem with the guilds is related to the very mechanics: there're might be only 1 guild per settlement. In the medieval cities there're multiple guilds in a city, and very few cities would specialise in one trade. So how to make it feel historical... I don't know.
    You could make a "copy" (a standard building, not buildable normally) that the script replaces a guild building with, or a couple other things, admittedly a rather awkward sort of workaround especially if you want to keep guild upgrading.

    (Some sort of "lock in guild" building used to designate "I want to turn the guild into a guild-copy" perhaps.)
    Last edited by Alavaria; September 21, 2017 at 10:18 AM.

  4. #44
    Lifthrasir's Avatar "Capre" Dunkerquois
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    Default Re: Merchants

    Quote Originally Posted by Alavaria View Post
    Shrugging a bit since it sort of feels like a "there's a campaign difficulty selector" kind of thing. For AIs obviously they can be given buffs (or given them in general).

    I sort of want to see what can be done with say the relatively efficient units of Lithuania (Perkunas) or maybe Hungary (Transilvanian Peasants) which feature upkeeps of like 150, compared to say 580 (Sergeant spearmen) or 1000-1500 (cavalry units). Since you can bring in reinforcements, taking multiple stacks of those could be hilarious

    What are you talking about?
    Under the patronage of Flinn, proud patron of Jadli, from the Heresy Vault of the Imperial House of Hader

  5. #45

    Default Re: Merchants

    More of a note that the "less developed" factions sometimes have high-efficiency units which helps to offset their initial lower income and means that if they take over someone more developed, it can get ridiculous.

    Conversely, those with higher starting income might have rather expensive units, so when they expand it doesn't get crazy as fast.

  6. #46

    Default Re: Merchants

    Also i would like know the opinion of MWY
    ( also developer of sship) and see if he has other solution or thinking about merchant,maybe not so radical as Lifth and more ''medium'' idea as Jurand...
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  7. #47
    bigdaddy1204's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Merchants

    Merchants are a part of the game i really enjoy. I always max out the number of merchants i can get and i always hire assassins to kill every enemy merchant.

    I think restricting the ability of the player to play the game how they want is a terrible idea. It's one thing to add challenge but another to simply remove options from even being possible. I object to these proposals and i want merchants to stay as they are. I like the way they work in SSHIP and i don't want it to change.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adar View Post
    I am quite impressed by the fact that you managed to make such a rant but still manage to phrase it in such a way that it is neither relevant to the thread nor to the topic you are trying to introduce to the thread.

  8. #48
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: Merchants

    An example how Gigantus in the Rise of Three Kingdoms dealt with the agents:

  9. #49

    Default Re: Merchants

    I continue thinking in a medium position, not so radical, so limit the number of agents and make them as a reward for the player(jurand proposal), for me and many players the agents(merchants,priest, assasins...)give them inmersion and funny, i prefer have them but in minor quantity and more valuable, so also i prefer that sship team reworked the guilts and trade buildings
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  10. #50
    Lifthrasir's Avatar "Capre" Dunkerquois
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    Default Re: Merchants

    ^^ Considering the amount of voters in this poll, it seems there aren't that many sharing your thoughts

    Sorry, I couldn't resist to be a bit sacarstic
    Under the patronage of Flinn, proud patron of Jadli, from the Heresy Vault of the Imperial House of Hader

  11. #51
    tmodelsk's Avatar Tiro
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    Default Re: Merchants

    Quote Originally Posted by Lifthrasir View Post
    ^^ Considering the amount of voters in this poll, it seems there aren't that many sharing your thoughts
    And .. what are the results currently ? The results of the pool are hidden for me (everyone?) .
    SSHIP mini-mods :

  12. #52
    Lifthrasir's Avatar "Capre" Dunkerquois
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    Default Re: Merchants

    Yes they are. As the creator of the poll I can see the results. However, I don't want to influence people and that's why I prefer to not say anything about the votes for now. The only thing I can say is that there have been 14 voters (including me) so far. To get a better "picture", I encourage people to vote, no matter their opinion
    Under the patronage of Flinn, proud patron of Jadli, from the Heresy Vault of the Imperial House of Hader

  13. #53

    Default Re: Merchants

    And considering this poll and the opinions, the changes about merchants would be for the next upcoming version, or you plan release a beta for some betatester and try this changes?( this should include many changes in the comercial buildings and guilds,and also this require a lot of time, so many months more for see the new version...)
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  14. #54
    Lifthrasir's Avatar "Capre" Dunkerquois
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    Default Re: Merchants

    It depends. If it's just removing them, it can be done. If it is JoC's option that wins, then it will requier some work and I think it will be for a later release.
    Under the patronage of Flinn, proud patron of Jadli, from the Heresy Vault of the Imperial House of Hader

  15. #55

    Default Re: Merchants

    Quote Originally Posted by Lifthrasir View Post
    It depends. If it's just removing them, it can be done. If it is JoC's option that wins, then it will requier some work and I think it will be for a later release.
    Mmm ok about jurand proposal, but for removed proposal also requier some work no? For guilds, trade buildings and banks... is correct?
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  16. #56
    Lifthrasir's Avatar "Capre" Dunkerquois
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    Default Re: Merchants

    Just removing merchants won't take much time. Guilds and trade buildings are something different.
    Under the patronage of Flinn, proud patron of Jadli, from the Heresy Vault of the Imperial House of Hader

  17. #57
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: Merchants

    Right: to remove the merchants you just delete the bonuses from the EDB.
    However, to my mind, adding merchants to the Guilds HQ is equally simple - you just add a line in EDB "agent_limit merchant 1" in the relevant guild bonus part. For the other buildings, the same is be required, if decided to do so.
    What would be more time consuming is to add the merchants as rewards for the Missions and the Interactive Events. I think it should be done by script, but I don't know the intricacies. I've just asked if it's possible to do it for the missions, with Gigantus and rafmc19189 being positive on it and having ideas how to do it.

  18. #58
    Khevsur's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Merchants

    Remove them completely.

  19. #59

    Default Re: Merchants

    Quote Originally Posted by Khevsur View Post
    Remove them completely.
    If this is affirmative, i supposed that guilds and trade buildings will need to be reworked...and i would like know something about how and what features will be new...
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  20. #60

    Default Re: Merchants

    Now that the poll is closed and win the result of Jurand proposal and dont remove merchants, ''medium position'' what are the ideas about merchants? This will be ready for the next release?
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