Baktrian colonization question

[Seimour]

I've managed to restart a Baktria game and got the point where I got my Metropolis in Baktria proper. I was looking at the recruitment options for cities in the north between Khorasmia and Kushi only to find out they had none. So while settling Hellenes there would massively help with the public order, I would not even be able to recruit thureophoroi. Is this an oversight or intended? I can build local colonies but that's just asking for trouble. Moreover, while Chach and Dahyu Haomavarga have recruitment options from native colonies, Kushi and Alexandreia-Eschate do not. Once more, is this oversight or intended as it is?
Better recruitment there would really help with the constant raids from the Saka Rauka.

I just want a few hellenic soldiers to explain to the natives why taxation is awesome.

[QuintusSertorius]

Intended. Greeks don't want to live out on the central Asian steppe, so far from the sea.

Kushi not having anything is intended - that's the steppe proper - but Alexandreia-Eschate should:

;;; SAKA
recruit_pool "eastern cavalry asiatikoi hippeis"  1  0.06  2  0  requires factions { cul_1, cul_3, f_carthage, f_numidia, f_gandhara, } and hidden_resource saka and hidden_resource mixed and not hidden_resource hyparchia
recruit_pool "steppe cavalry dahae horse archers"  1  0.06  2  0  requires factions { f_pontos, f_hayasdan, f_parthia, f_nabatu, f_saka, f_sauromatae, } and hidden_resource saka and hidden_resource mixed and not hidden_resource hyparchia
recruit_pool "indian cavalry light"  1  0.06  2  0  requires factions { cul_1, cul_3, f_carthage, f_numidia, f_gandhara, } and hidden_resource saka and hidden_resource mixed and hidden_resource hyparchia
recruit_pool "steppe cavalry saka riders"  1  0.06  2  0  requires factions { f_pontos, f_hayasdan, f_parthia, f_nabatu, f_saka, f_sauromatae, } and hidden_resource saka and hidden_resource mixed and hidden_resource hyparchia ; Yuezhi
recruit_pool "eastern cavalry harauvatish asabara"  1  0.06  2  0  requires factions { cul_1, cul_3, f_carthage, f_numidia, f_gandhara, } and hidden_resource saka and hidden_resource mixed
recruit_pool "steppe cavalry dahae skirmishers"  1  0.06  2  0  requires factions { f_pontos, f_hayasdan, f_parthia, f_nabatu, f_saka, f_sauromatae, } and hidden_resource saka and hidden_resource mixed and not hidden_resource hyparchia
recruit_pool "steppe cavalry saka horse archers"  1  0.06  2  0  requires factions { f_pontos, f_hayasdan, f_parthia, f_nabatu, f_saka, f_sauromatae, } and hidden_resource saka and hidden_resource mixed and hidden_resource hyparchia ; Yuezhi
recruit_pool "eastern infantry kavakaza kofyaren"  1  0.06  2  0  requires factions { cul_1, cul_3, f_carthage, f_numidia, f_gandhara, } and hidden_resource saka and hidden_resource mixed
recruit_pool "steppe infantry saka axemen"  1  0.06  2  0  requires factions { f_pontos, f_hayasdan, f_parthia, f_nabatu, f_saka, f_sauromatae, } and hidden_resource saka and hidden_resource mixed ; Tocharians?
recruit_pool "eastern infantry nizagan bakhtrish"  1  0.06  2  0  requires factions { cul_1, cul_3, f_carthage, f_numidia, f_gandhara, } and hidden_resource saka and hidden_resource mixed
recruit_pool "steppe infantry saka archers"  1  0.06  2  0  requires factions { f_pontos, f_hayasdan, f_parthia, f_nabatu, f_saka, f_sauromatae, } and hidden_resource saka and hidden_resource mixed ; Tocharians?

I'll need to review the pool again, A-E has changed hidden_resource mix since I wrote the above.

[Seimour]

Well if at least Alexandreia-Eschate is going to get colonies, I am a happy Diadochi. Nonetheless, does that same rule apply for native colonies having no recruitment in some of these areas as well? The impossibility of governments to coopt any locals into the army for instance?

[QuintusSertorius]

Well if at least Alexandreia-Eschate is going to get colonies, I am a happy Diadochi. Nonetheless, does that same rule apply for native colonies having no recruitment in some of these areas as well? The impossibility of governments to coopt any locals into the army for instance?

There are limits to colonisation, places too marginal or too underdeveloped for them to be viable. It's more limited with Hellenistic than Local colonies anyway (because Greeks have more stringent requirements of a place), but even the latter isn't universal. Local colonies have a broader reach than any one faction's governments do, that's so that every faction that can build them has options within it's sphere of influence. But it's entirely by design that there are places where the only way any particular faction is going to get any units is by installing an Allied Government.

[Mr. Blob]

How much not having client ruler in allied government settlement effects public order in said settlement? I am asking because I don't recruit client rulers for the sake of having more children in the factional family tree.

[QuintusSertorius]

How much not having client ruler in allied government settlement effects public order in said settlement? I am asking because I don't recruit client rulers for the sake of having more children in the factional family tree.

FMs get Interloper:

	Level Interloper
		Description Interloper_desc
		EffectsDescription Interloper_effects_desc
		GainMessage Interloper_gain_desc
		 Threshold 2

		 Effect Unrest  3
		 Effect Law -3
		 Effect TrainingUnits -2
		 Effect Construction -10

Which also triggers negative traits in the governor.

Client Rulers aren't FMs, they're Generals who aren't part of your family tree.

[Mr. Blob]

FMs get Interloper:

    Level Interloper
        Description Interloper_desc
        EffectsDescription Interloper_effects_desc
        GainMessage Interloper_gain_desc
         Threshold 2

         Effect Unrest  3
         Effect Law -3
         Effect TrainingUnits -2
         Effect Construction -10

Which also triggers negative traits in the governor.

Client Rulers aren't FMs, they're Generals who aren't part of your family tree.

I got that Quint. I meant leaving settlement without any general in it. Client rulers are generals. Since number of generals, FM included, is tied to the faction's number of settlements, client rulers therefore influence how many offer of marriage you would get for your FMs as well as number of kids being born. Client rulers can have a negative indirect influence on your family tree. The question is: "Are Allied Governments viable without client ruler in it, no other general in it is assumed?"

[QuintusSertorius]

Ah, then instead you're dealing with this:

      <factor name="SOF_NO_GOVERNANCE">
         <pip_modifier value="3.0"/>
      </factor>

Which I think is -15% order for having no governor present.

[Jurand of Cracow]

Ah, then instead you're dealing with this:

      <factor name="SOF_NO_GOVERNANCE">
         <pip_modifier value="3.0"/>
      </factor>

Which I think is -15% order for having no governor present.

I understand that this code fires when there're no units (ie the settlement is empty). If there's just 1 soldier then it doesn't fire. Presence of a general is not required.

Btw - perhaps somebody can help me with this question?

[Seimour]

Well, from what I've seen, far off client states are impossible to hold without the ruler there. You need him to offset the public order maluses. I think cities with no governors is just asking for trouble. I know bad governors can screw things up but they can also be replaced.

[(:Baktra:)]

Here are some questions about Hellenistic colonization in Asia and Hellenized Natives.

1. If Greeks like to live close to the sea, then how were Alexander and the Diadochi able to entice them to settle in Persia, Baktria, and especially northern India?

2. If Baktra builds a metropolis and can send out colonists, then who are the colonists? Are they Greeks or Hellenized natives?

3. In Baktrian armies, what units would be made up of Greek colonists or made up of Hellenized natives? Like who would be in a Baktrian unit of hoplitai or thureophoroi?

4. In many of the far eastern cities founded by Alexander (like Alexandreia-Eschate), was it first populated with a Hellenic population? And if so, then why would those cities not receive some kind of small Hellenistic recruitment?

Thanks

[QuintusSertorius]

Here are some questions about Hellenistic colonization in Asia and Hellenized Natives.

1. If Greeks like to live close to the sea, then how were Alexander and the Diadochi able to entice them to settle in Persia, Baktria, and especially northern India?

2. If Baktra builds a metropolis and can send out colonists, then who are the colonists? Are they Greeks or Hellenized natives?

3. In Baktrian armies, what units would be made up of Greek colonists or made up of Hellenized natives? Like who would be in a Baktrian unit of hoplitai or thureophoroi?

4. In many of the far eastern cities founded by Alexander (like Alexandreia-Eschate), was it first populated with a Hellenic population? And if so, then why would those cities not receive some kind of small Hellenistic recruitment?

Thanks

1. They weren't. Those settlers in the far east weren't Greeks for the most part; they were Hellenising Anatolians and Iranians. Look at the description for the Babylonian Spearmen - thousands of Babylonians were sent out as garrison troops and settlers by Alexander. That's also why Galatians and Thracians were settled in large numbers in Egypt and Iran respectively.

2. A small number of Greeks plus lots of Hellenising peoples, be they Anatolians or Iranians.

3. Actual Greeks (or mixed-blooded Greeks) would be the cavalry. Most of the infantry would actually be Hellenised peoples.

4. No, again the proportion of genuine Greeks would have been relatively low, most of the rest being the groups already mentioned. Those cities do receive Hellenistic recruitment in their Allied Government pools, and the polis which shrinks over time.

[(:Baktra:)]

1. They weren't. Those settlers in the far east weren't Greeks for the most part; they were Hellenising Anatolians and Iranians. Look at the description for the Babylonian Spearmen - thousands of Babylonians were sent out as garrison troops and settlers by Alexander. That's also why Galatians and Thracians were settled in large numbers in Egypt and Iran respectively.

2. A small number of Greeks plus lots of Hellenising peoples, be they Anatolians or Iranians.

3. Actual Greeks (or mixed-blooded Greeks) would be the cavalry. Most of the infantry would actually be Hellenised peoples.

4. No, again the proportion of genuine Greeks would have been relatively low, most of the rest being the groups already mentioned. Those cities do receive Hellenistic recruitment in their Allied Government pools, and the polis which shrinks over time.

Thanks for the response. I like learning about those kinds of things. I have some more follow-up/semi-related questions:
1. Sorry if this question is a little difficult to answer, but what was Baktria’s policy on Hellenizing? I want to make my Baktria campaign more Historically accurate, but don’t know when and where to build native colonies or Hellenistic colonies? From a game perspective, I think that building local colonies is a bad idea because of the negative happiness and Eastern Imperial conversion. Should it be my goal to Hellenize everyone in my sphere of influence or only certain places?
2. Why can’t Baktria recruit Pantodapoi and/or pantodapoi phalanx in A-E? I would think that if Pantodapoi are Hellenizing natives then they should be recruitable almost anywhere.
3. Related to that question, why can’t Baktria recruit pantodapoi phalanx from their government buildings (currently they only come from local colonies). You can recruit pantodapoi from the government buildings and I think that the native phalanx is just slightly better trained than regular pantodapoi. I am just curious why they aren’t able to be recruited together?
4. If most of the Baktrian style greek units (like hoplitai, thureophoroi, etc.) weren’t actually greeks then is there a plan to give them new skins to represent the identity of the Hellenized settlers/natives?
5. In the future, will there be any new Hellenized Anatolian or Persian colonist units for Bakria/Seleucia?
6. Are there any planned Hellenized Saka/central asian units?

[QuintusSertorius]

1. I can't answer this from a historical perspective, but in terms of the way it's coded, you'll only get the full benefits of Hellenisation from Baktriane and Oxeiane; not only do they start with higher levels of Hellenistic Polities, but they also have the greek2 hidden_resource, which has a big impact on what Greek units are available from the polis/colony. Even so, Baktria is still better than India, but it's a sharp drop-off in terms of variety and numbers. You'll get better results of a Hellenisation policy if you go west, into the Seleukid realm.
2. Alexandreia-Eschate is the edge of the steppe, it isn't an urbanised, settled territory and the natives are Sakan. Pantodapoi come in abundance in settled places where there's enough of an urban mass of people aspiring to Greekness. They are recruitable almost everywhere, but there are limits.
3. Phalanxes are colony units, simply put. That's the universal rule, whether they are Makedonian or native. Pantodapoi are regular levies that require little investment to raise. Phalanxes of every kind require a lot more.
4. No specific plans; where Baktria already has its own skin for those units, it often takes that into account.
5. No, again that's built into why those units are available at all from the Hellenistic Colony or polis. We're assuming the broadest interpretation of Hellenistic, for the purposes of the units available.
6. I don't think so, though there's still more Baktrian cavalry units to come. There's also an Indo-Skythian (meaning Indo-Sakan) unit for Taksashila to come.

[(:Baktra:)]

Thanks again, I have been wondering about some of those questions for a while now.

With the 2.3 release, where will Baktria recruit Indo-Greek Units (from the Gov building or Hellenistic Colonies).

[QuintusSertorius]

Thanks again, I have been wondering about some of those questions for a while now.

With the 2.3 release, where will Baktria recruit Indo-Greek Units (from the Gov building or Hellenistic Colonies).

I'll see if I can get a response from one of the historians on your first question; you're getting it filtered through the lens of mechanics, but I did have it explained at some point.

Indo-Greeks are colony units; they appear in the helcol in Paropamisadae, and in India. Non-Hellenistic factions can get them from the Local Colony in those same places. Taksashila has its own "colony" building for Indo-Greeks.

As a Hellenistic faction, the rule is always that your best troops come from the colony, not your government. Hellenistic governments give only locals and mostly levies. Ie garrison fodder. At best you might get some light cavalry you can supplement your armies with.

[Hellenikon]

I apologise from switching the subject a bit, but what about the area of Amaseia-Sinope-Trapezous and Chersonesos-Pantikapaion? Those places have very limited hellenistic colony recruitment, very similar to places like Europos or Arbela, on mainland Iran. If they're on the black sea and in anatolia, shouldn't there be more hellenic recruits available? I am aware that this area was never conquered by Alexander, so the influence of the diadochi is less direct. Still i find odd how in places near the sea, with old greek colonies, there is such a limited hellenistic colony recruitment.

[QuintusSertorius]

I apologise from switching the subject a bit, but what about the area of Amaseia-Sinope-Trapezous and Chersonesos-Pantikapaion? Those places have very limited hellenistic colony recruitment, very similar to places like Europos or Arbela, on mainland Iran. If they're on the black sea and in anatolia, shouldn't there be more hellenic recruits available? I am aware that this area was never conquered by Alexander, so the influence of the diadochi is less direct. Still i find odd how in places near the sea, with old greek colonies, there is such a limited hellenistic colony recruitment.

All helcols have the same number of points in their pools. The "Pontic" pool is the same size as any other (this from the helcol_two):

;;; PONTIC
recruit_pool "hellenistic cavalry xystophoroi"  1  0.04  1  0  requires factions { f_makedonia, f_epeiros, f_pergamon, f_pontos, cul_3, } and not event_counter ecThorakitaiReform 1 and hidden_resource pontic and hidden_resource skythian
recruit_pool "hellenistic cavalry aspidiotai hippeis"  1  0.04  1  0  requires factions { f_makedonia, f_epeiros, f_pergamon, f_pontos, cul_3, } and event_counter ecThorakitaiReform 1 and hidden_resource pontic and hidden_resource skythian
recruit_pool "thracian cavalry prodromoi"  1  0.04  1  0  requires factions { f_makedonia, f_epeiros, f_pergamon, f_pontos, cul_3, } and hidden_resource pontic and hidden_resource thrakia
recruit_pool "hellenistic cavalry hippakontistai"  1  0.08  2  0  requires factions { f_makedonia, f_epeiros, f_pergamon, f_pontos, cul_3, } and not event_counter ecThorakitaiReform 1 and hidden_resource pontic
recruit_pool "hellenistic cavalry thureopherontes hippotoxotai"  1  0.08  2  0  requires factions { f_makedonia, f_epeiros, f_pergamon, cul_3, } and event_counter ecThorakitaiReform 1 and hidden_resource pontic and not hidden_resource thrakia
recruit_pool "hellenistic cavalry thureopherontes hippeis"  1  0.08  2  0  requires factions { f_pontos, } and event_counter ecThorakitaiReform 1 and hidden_resource pontic
recruit_pool "hellenistic cavalry thureopherontes hippeis"  1  0.08  2  0  requires factions { f_makedonia, f_epeiros, f_pergamon, f_pontos, cul_3, } and event_counter ecThorakitaiReform 1 and hidden_resource pontic and hidden_resource thrakia
recruit_pool "hellenistic infantry phalangitai"  1  0.04  1  0  requires factions { f_makedonia, f_epeiros, f_pergamon, f_pontos, cul_3, } and not event_counter ecThorakitaiReform 1 and hidden_resource pontic and hidden_resource anatolian and not hidden_resource thrakia
recruit_pool "hellenistic infantry hoplitai"  1  0.08  2  0  requires factions { f_makedonia, f_epeiros, f_pergamon, f_pontos, cul_3, } and not event_counter ecThureosReform 1 and hidden_resource pontic
recruit_pool "hellenistic infantry hemithorakitai"  1  0.12  3  0  requires factions { f_makedonia, f_epeiros, f_pergamon, f_pontos, cul_3, } and not event_counter ecThureosReform 1 and hidden_resource pontic
recruit_pool "hellenistic infantry thureophoroi"  1  0.08  2  0  requires factions { f_makedonia, f_epeiros, f_pergamon, f_pontos, cul_3, } and event_counter ecThureosReform 1 and hidden_resource pontic
recruit_pool "hellenistic infantry machairophoroi"  1  0.04  1  0  requires factions { f_makedonia, f_epeiros, f_pergamon, f_pontos, cul_3, } and event_counter ecThureosReform 1 and hidden_resource pontic
recruit_pool "hellenistic infantry thorakitai"  1  0.04  1  0  requires factions { f_makedonia, f_epeiros, f_pergamon, f_pontos, cul_3, } and event_counter ecThorakitaiReform 1 and hidden_resource pontic and hidden_resource anatolian and not hidden_resource thrakia
recruit_pool "hellenistic infantry euzonoi"  1  0.08  2  0  requires factions { f_makedonia, f_epeiros, f_pergamon, f_pontos, cul_3, } and event_counter ecThureosReform 1 and hidden_resource pontic
recruit_pool "hellenistic infantry thureopherontes toxotai"  1  0.04  1  0  requires factions { f_makedonia, f_epeiros, f_pergamon, f_pontos, cul_3, } and event_counter ecThorakitaiReform 1 and hidden_resource skythian
recruit_pool "thracian infantry katoikoi"  1  0.04  1  0  requires factions { f_makedonia, f_epeiros, f_pergamon, f_pontos, cul_3, } and hidden_resource pontic and hidden_resource thrakia or hidden_resource dacia ;;  Nikaia/Histria

Though I notice the red one at the top means that southern shore is accidentally omitted. But that's one point out of eight.

Amaseia isn't part of the Pontic pool, it's part of the Anatolia one. Which again is still the same size as all the others.

[Seimour]

It seems impossible to build a local colony with Armenia in Antioch even if I destroy all the buildings(including the hel_col) and rebuild anew with a sartrapy. Looks like I wasted the imperial seat there :/

[QuintusSertorius]

It seems impossible to build a local colony with Armenia in Antioch even if I destroy all the buildings(including the hel_col) and rebuild anew with a sartrapy. Looks like I wasted the imperial seat there :/

That's because of the Metropoleis. You can't destroy them, and they prevent any other sort of colony than Hellenistic. Generally you can only put a non-Hellenistic colony in a Greek settlement that has the smallest polis.