Catalonia Independence Referendum

[Timoleon of Korinthos]

Nope, they stood together when the necessity arose.

Like when Napoleon mopped the floor with them?

It's a notion beyond the ridiculous to assume that this is ever coming back again.

Hum, yes, German rationality can always be counted upon, it's not like they were exterminating Jews on the premise that they are subhuman 70 years ago.

[Basil II the B.S]

https://apnews.com/742f65324b4245539...&utm_medium=AP



Hundreds of thousands rally against Catalonia secession

[swabian]

Like when Napoleon mopped the floor with them?

That little bullies meddlings were disposed of in short order.

Hum, yes, German rationality can always be counted upon, it's not like they were exterminating Jews on the premise that they are subhuman 70 years ago.

Then your Germanophobe sentiments should be rassured by the idea of small states like Catalonia, which is the actual topic here btw.

[Ludicus]

...Hundreds of thousands rally against Catalonia secession

Approximately 350,000.

Vargas Llosa gave a speech to the crowd today on the dangerous of Catalan nationalism: "Besides Catalans, there are thousands of men and women from all corners of Spain who have come..."

They are not Catalans.
May I ask, what about the Castilian nationalism?



Today, with a number of demonstrators raising their right arms in fascists salutes.


Rajoy said: "This is a European battle.. It’s a battle in which the values of Europe are at stake".
Pure demagoguery.

[Basil II the B.S]

Approximately 350,000.

Vargas Llosa gave a speech to the crowd today on the dangerous of Catalan nationalism: "Besides Catalans, there are thousands of men and women from all corners of Spain who have come..."

They are not Catalans.
May I ask, what about the Castilian nationalism?



Today, with a number of demonstrators raising their right arms in fascists salutes.


Rajoy said: "This is a European battle.. It’s a battle in which the values of Europe are at stake".
Pure demagoguery.

Fascists are idiots regardless of their national allegiance.

Nonetheless, approximately half of Catalonia wouldn't secede, hard to say if it's the majority or not, let's say it'd be pretty tight. They can easily make up the 350k number. None of them is making appeals to Franco or fascism in general.
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[Conrad82]

This isn't an argument for having a Catalan state today, someone stated there was never a Catalan state and I disputed that. You seem to be having issues with this simple fact.

You disputed and failed, there was never a Catalan state. This is what I was adressing, not whether it would serve as a justification for independence, which it doesnt. You seem to have trouble understing that and everything else.

Great example. Except that in the case of France the local people would undergo massive changes before they became French, in the form of Romanisation and later migration by Germanic tribes such as Franks and Goths.

Yeah, instead of keeping the same name for the area they just invented something completely new. Is it not more likely that the name had already been in use?

Yes, the cavemen in the region were already calling themselves Catalan XD

"The first reference to Catalonia and the Catalans appears in the Liber maiolichinus de gestis Pisanorum illustribus, a Pisan chronicle (written between 1117 and 1125) of the conquest of Menorca by a joint force of Italians, Catalans, and Occitans.

Of course, except the same wikipedia link says:

At the time, Catalonia did not yet exist as a political entity

And that it was under Frankish sovereignety at the time.


Holy Hell man, you are like a chicken banging his head against a wall because it doesn't occur to him that it can go around. I guess I will have to put the conversation again:

-But you are convincing the other Catalans, the ones who were against independence, of those things as well! The Spanish government made things much worse!
According to polls around 40% support Catalan independence, and around 80% support holding a referendum. By violently cracking down on the referendum you are pushing the supporters of the latter towards supporting the former.
-Yes, I'm sure you talked with all the Catalans and this is why you know all this. Or maybe you have some kind of power. Who knows.
-I posses the special ability to read polls.

I wasn't talking about the polls you provided numbers for. I was talking about how you pretended to know the ultra-violent one-injured crackdowns would push more Catalans towards independence. This is what I asked proof of. Do you get it? Now, will you show these twitter posts? You know, the ones you said you would provide in a few days at the time of your post.

Except beating someone up for standing somewhere is police brutality. You can arrest them, you can't start beating them.

Ah, this is the point. Standing SOMEWHERE. Now, where could be that SOMEWHERE? And now, try again thinking for a second: is it better to get a few baton strikes or be arrested and imposed severe fines or prison sentences?

Ah, so they were beaten bloody for their own safety. Got it.

Who exactly was BLEATEN BLOODLY man? It seems you didn't get the part about the 800 wounded hoax, right?

Throwing a molotov very much does justify live ammunition. Rocks kill people too, btw, especially when thrown at the windshield of a car, or at someone's head.

So it does playing soccer, I guess the ball can be used as a weapon. And going to school too, these pens can be deadly weapons!!


Now we know that, please tell me:
- How many people in Spain were killed by the police for throwing molotov cocktels at them?
- How many fascist settlers were fired at for throwing rocks to Palestinians


I will expect these particular answers impatiently. Don't take long!

Yet again, this was before the birth of nationalism. The average person didn't care about the state of the nation they lived in.

Please. There was no nation and no national feelings before the birth of nationalism? ROFL So Romans didn't feel thesmelves Roman, Greeks didn't feel themselves Greeks, and so on, and there were never national liberation revolts!

Beore colonisation Portugal was in a pretty much exactly same position as Castille was.

No, before colonization, it was next to Castile, and after colonization it was, well, next to castile too. Now seriously ... How does this answer my question?

Galician and Portuguese used to be the same language, and the Portuguese broke away from the kingdom of Galicia.

Same than above: how does this answer my post? Belgium and France share the same language, and they are not basically the same... Can you assimilate that?


And it doesn't answer the question that sparked this particular debate, which was, iirc: why did Portugal have more in common with Castile than Aragon?

Well, for one, Catalan is more similiar to Italian than it is to Spanish according to your link.

the lexical similarity between Catalan and other Romance languages is: 87% with Italian; 85% with Portuguese and Spanish; 76% with Ladin; 75% with Sardinian; and 73% with Romanian.[38]

2% is not what could be said a huge difference. Strange anyway, since I find Catalan is closest to French and Spanish than Italian. I cannot think of any Catalan word that would sound Italian, but ah well

Their focus as a state was also much more on the medeterranian and their possesions all over it and the wars they fought there (such as the war of sicilian vespers, wars of conquest such as sardinia and naples)

Yes, and Castile, Leon, Navarre expanded on different areas during the Reconquista before mergin in a single kingdom, but nobody says their history is different to the point it would justify them to be independant.

Well clearly you should stop arguing with me on Israel, because as an Israeli I have the higher authority on the subject.
Your knowledge of Spanish history might just be a bit biased.

You missed where I said "unless I know it's radically wrong"

Because people have the right to self determination, and they have the right to vote on whether or not they want to be a part of a country. You can't have a vote to force people to be part of your country. No referrendum in history has functioned the way you advocate for. Just like how England didn't get to vote on Scotlands independence, just like how the entire EU didn't vote on brexit, just like how Germany didn't vote on the referrendum for the future of the Saarland or northern Schleswig. You are advocating for tyranny of the majority.

But we have a few problems:


- Only the nations that are under colonial authority or tyrannized, IIRC have the right to independence, no matter what the laws of the country they belong to say
- The laws of my country basically say I can. Specially when Catalonia going away would mean severe economic hardship for my country
- England didn't vote on Scotland's independance because Scotland doesn't belong to England. Both belong to the UK, and the UK is a confederation of states, rather than a single state like Spain.
- As I said, tyranny of the majority is better than tyranny of the minority
- The Spanish law allows the Constitution to be modified - legally.

Which doesn't make the entire state of Aragon a Catalan state. Well come on, I've been asking for like 5 posts now, what's the answer?

When did I said that the "entire" territory (not a state) of Aragon was considered to be a Catalan Country by the separatists?

It grew as in the movement into the area, not the specific settlement. Don't know about the circumstances of the others.

So you don't know about the settlements built on Arab cleansed towns? Seems you aren't that authoritative on Israeli history as you claimed...

It doesn't at all make up for it. Military pay is about a fifth of the minimum monthly wage, with at least double the work hours.

I guess for second class Arab citizens it's like Paradise. Better than unemployment I would wager.

Unrecognized settlements more than illegal, and it's due to the government being unable to create proper infrastructure (such as running water and electricity) for these places. Israel actually has the worlds biggest Bedouin city, so clearly we are succeeding at making them more sedentary and less nomadic.

Nice, so they are expelling them for their own good. Still doesn't tell me why Israel doesn't have the same policy towards Jewish settlers tough. And why does making the Bedouins sedentary is a good thing?

All I could find when googling this was a quote from 2001 by a Rabbi, who while the "spiritual leader" of the party, is not a member of it and does not sit in the Knesset. Said rabbi is already dead, btw.

https://www.dailysabah.com/mideast/2...eli-politician

Does this sow sit in the Parliament?

I'm saying that you clearly have some rotten apples, as do we.
"My nazis are better than yours" isn't much of an argument.

"We have some rotten apples" vs "most of the tree is rotting" would be the accurate statement.

how many were hurt and just went home and fixed themselves up

Yes, that's the logical thing to do, go home when you can go see a doctor.


Until the next!

[Conrad82]

!

Btw, Final results, the turnout was 43%. 2,044,038 of the 2,286,217 people who took part voted for independence.
Catalonia referendum results show 90% of voters backed ... - Metro

That's counting the ones who voted multiple times?

Not bad at all, considering the facts...

Police carry away an elderly woman trying to vote in Sant Julia de Ramis, Spain

Terrific. We can clearly says how they are ruthlessly torturing her!

Don't be so sure about that.

I'm pretty sure, yes. You have no clue about the particular circumstances of the country you talk about and you would say the same thing whether you talked about Spain, Morocco, or Micronesia.

The Spanish parliament will never allow a referendum on the independence of Catalonia, which could eventually result in the dissolution of (sic) the "indissoluble unity of the Spanish Nation" (sic). The unity of Spain is a nuclear principle of the Spanish Constitution.

That's why the Constitution would first have to be amended

Well, there you go...why are you surprised?

... Surprised at what?

Oh, and I must say the American Institute of International law's opinion is terribly important to us Spaniards. Seriously, after seeing this I think I will change my opinion right now and say yes to Catalonian independence, legal or not!!

May I ask, what about the Castilian nationalism?

You can ask, and I would answer. You see, there hasn't been a concept like "Castilian nationalism" or anything like it for 500 years. It would be more accurate to say "Spanish nationalism"

Do you now understand why I am so sure? (see the beginning of my reply)

Someone asked why the Catalans wanted to be independent if they enjoy such a good standard of living. The answer is simply this: indoctrination at school and in the media.

This is why when the 15M demonstrations were repressed with actual brutality by the Catalan Police a few years ago, no one really cared.

[Ludicus]

No, it is not. It's a mixture of Celtic and Iberian tribes, Roman colonists, Visigoths, Jews and Arabs, exactly like the rest of the Iberian Peninsula.

A nonsensical statement. Catalonia is a nation - a nation without a state.
Btw, Portugal lays claim to be the oldest nation-state in Europe, usually dated from as early as 1139.

Nations Without States: Political Communities in the Global Age

A nation without State, as the term indicates, is based upon the existence of a nation, that is, a community endowed with a stable but dynamic core containing a set of factors which have generated the emergence of a specific national identity. The State, that is, the political institution with which the nation should ideally identify, is missing.

Fundamental to the history of Catalan nationalism is the fact thatCatalonia became a nation without a State after a long period up to1714, during which it had enjoyed its own political institutions andlaws.

The makers of the constitution opted for a model based upon symmetry, what has been called "café para todos", or "coffee for everyone,' and instead of directly responding to the nationalist claims of Catalonia and the Basque Country as nations...

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approximately half of Catalonia wouldn't secede,let's say it'd be pretty tight

Extrapolating the results from the illegal referendum, that remains to be proved. More than 2.2 million people were reported to have voted, according to Catalan authorities, out of 5.3 million registered voters.
There is a deadlock, so there is only one definitive solution: a legal referendum. A little too late, I guess.

[fkizz]

Internationalist Left suddenly re-discovered their love affair with Nationalism? After decades of passing judgement on Nationalism as the official Root of All Evil, they seem to finally start adhereing to pro-Nationalist movements and sentiment, because of their empathy with Catalunia Nationalism. (That looking at History, in times like 1936 obviously carries its Dangers, that in this case the internationalist left forgets to report, obviously not out of agenda, but out of pure forgetfullness). That said, Nationalism is Nationalism.

Of course this transition is slow and Condemnation/Mistrust of Nationalism that happens to be not Catalan will be enforced by said international left.

[mishkin]

Internationalist Left suddenly re-discovered their love affair with Nationalism?

No. From where did you get that idea?

[fkizz]

No. From where did you get that idea?

Due to their very slow response in condemning the current Nationalist Surge in Eastern Iberia, that like in all cases carries its dangers.
People are still waiting for the usual and wondering what could possibly be different this time for said political movement to be so hesitant in condemning a Nationalist surge.

[Timoleon of Korinthos]

That little bullies meddlings were disposed of in short order.

But not by the Germans, by the Russians. All the Russians, all in one country under one emperor, since the last time they had been themselves a patchwork of small duchies, kingdoms and republics, the Mongols taught them a very harsh lesson.

Then your Germanophobe sentiments should be rassured by the idea of small states like Catalonia, which is the actual topic here btw.

On the contrary, I am very much a Germanophile, which is why I want Germany to remain united and strong. The point was that historically you have proven yourselves very much susceptible to nationalism, populism, religious fanaticism and any other vice or impulse that leads men to fratricide, which is why I do not find farfetched a scenario where the German states turn on each other with unexpected brutality, like the Serbs and the Croats did when Yugoslavia was dissolved just a couple of decades ago. For all the same reasons I want Spain to remain united and strong, which is why in my opinion the slight sign of sedition should be quashed immediately and mercilessly.

A nonsensical statement. Catalonia is a nation - a nation without a state.

Your opinion against mine.

Btw, Portugal lays claim to be the oldest nation-state in Europe, usually dated from as early as 1139.

Good to know, but nobody gives a about what Portugal claims, really. You could be absorbed by Spain tomorrow and nobody would notice.

[Ludicus]

You have no clue about the particular circumstances of the country you talk about

What "particular circumstances"?

That's why the Constitution would first have to be amended

Clearly this isn't going to happen.

there hasn't been a concept like "Castilian nationalism" or anything like it for 500 years. It would be more accurate to say "Spanish nationalism"

I don't want to lecture you, but Castilian nationalism dates back to more than 500 years ago.And later, between 1609 and 1621, there was a revival of an aggressive Castilian nationalism, inspired by Castilian growing sense of inferiority in Europe, and the Castilian answer was a return to war.
Recommended readings:
- Imperial Spain 1469-1716
- The Economic Decline of Empires.

The long term goal of the Spanish nationalism was to absorb the peninsular cultures and languages into the Castilian one - and it failed, Portugal remained an independent country. Furthermore, the re-emergence of peripheral nationalist movements within Spain was directly related to the pursuit of political and cultural homogeneity by the Castilian center.

Left suddenly re-discovered their love affair with Nationalism?

There was never a leftist case against a healthy, nonaggressive nationalism/patriotism, anti-xenophobic and even multicultural. You know that in some countries there is not a patriotism differential between the right and the left.

[fkizz]

There was never a leftist case against a healthy, nonaggressive nationalism/patriotism, anti-xenophobic and even multicultural. You know that in some countries there is not a patriotism differential between the right and the left.

Well, the object of the love affair is always rationalized as being the exception, and the one that's different from the others, isn't it?

Well, Nationalism in Eastern Iberia openly overrules the Constitution of a country, opening a political crisis in a country that hasn't recovered fully from its Civil War wounds. The entity with monopoly of violence is the Central government, and the higher ups are putting their followers at risk from suffering retaliations. Forget risk, there are already ~800 wounded, will the count stabilize or increase?

One of the motivations for the independence movement is that Catalonia, being the richest zone in Spain, is held down by the forced wealth transfers they have to do to poorer and less developed zones in Spain - with their Nation own they could have a fiscal wall that prevent them to perform wealth redistribution from the richer in Spain to the poorer in Spain.

International left is supporting a movement that will reduce wealth redistribution inside the current populace and also supporting a nationalism surge - all packed in the same movement.
What entitles Catalonia being the exception to deserve (leftwing support) for their "less-welfare" and nationalist ambitions?

[mishkin]

Due to their very slow response in condemning the current Nationalist Surge in Eastern Iberia, that like in all cases carries its dangers.
People are still waiting for the usual and wondering what could possibly be different this time for said political movement to be so hesitant in condemning a Nationalist surge.

Why should they condemn a people's desire to express themselves regarding their belonging to a state?
Spanish leftist parties want a referendum and a vote against independence. That is far from professing any love for nationalism. In Spain the only ones who ask for condemnations and deny that there should be any dialogue are the right-wingers. Spanish nationalist right-wingers.
By the way, historically Catalan nationalism in mainly right-wing. (Now it could be said that it is both left and right. Strange days).
By the way II, if for some silly reason you do not want to mention Cataluña /Catalunya/Catalonia you should say northeastern iberia, not eastern iberia.

International left is supporting a movement that will reduce wealth redistribution inside the current populace and also supporting a nationalism surge - all packed in the same movement.

Prove "the international left" is supporting catalan nationalism.

[Timoleon of Korinthos]

Why should they condemn a people's desire to express themselves regarding their belonging to a state?

For the same reason they condemn successful people's desire not to pay taxes to the state, since this is what this "independence" movement is all about.

[Gallus]

https://apnews.com/742f65324b4245539...&utm_medium=AP

Hundreds of thousands rally against Catalonia secession

Wow. Spanish government is organizing meetings of truth. Amazing. We've had those in Yugoslavia before the war.

[mishkin]

For the same reason they condemn successful people's desire not to pay taxes to the state, since this is what this "independence" movement is all about.

I think you've mixed too many things in one line.

[Ludicus]

our opinion against mine.

No, it's not an opinion...it's an historical fact. But I know quite well your opinion. (1)

Good to know

You are welcome, it's never late to learn. You said that there are no nation states in Iberia, and that is an ignorant statement.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

No, it is not. It's a mixture of Celtic and Iberian tribes, Roman colonists, Visigoths, Jews and Arabs, exactly like the rest of the Iberian Peninsula

but nobody gives a about what Portugal claims, really

As I said, it's much more than a claim, it's an historical fact.

(1)

You could be absorbed by Spain tomorrow and nobody would notice. I am very much a Germanophile, which is why I want Germany to remain united and strong

We are all whites, aren't we? and as we identify ourselves with our ethnicity - not with a state- that would not be a problem, nobody would notice. Spain -like Italy or Germany- is a white nation possessing a state, and that's what really matters.

[Timoleon of Korinthos]

I think you've mixed too many things in one line.

Let me make it understandable to you then by spreading it out in many lines.

What is the Left's answer to the fundamental political question of whether the rich should pay taxes for the poor? That they should.
What is the Left's answer to the fundamental political question of whether rich regions should pay taxes for poor regions? That they should.
Why do the Catalan separatists want to secede from Spain? Is it because the central government suppresses their tribal identity, language and culture? No, it's because they don't want to pay taxes that are funneled into the poorer areas of Spain.
Ergo, does the Left's support for Catalan independence movement make them inconsistent with their very own principles? Yes, it does.

And that is the last time I spoon-feed you anything.