Page 16 of 42 FirstFirst ... 6789101112131415161718192021222324252641 ... LastLast
Results 301 to 320 of 833

Thread: Confederate Statues, Liberalism, Moral Relativism and White Supremacists

  1. #301

    Default Re: Confederate Statues, Liberalism, Moral Relativism and White Supremacists

    Quote Originally Posted by Diocle View Post
    I'm feeling insulted by those who feel insulted by historical memories, I'm also feeling in danger, this people is dangerous, they don't respect even the past I can't imagine what form they are ready to give to the future in the communities in which they live.

    In Italy, even though the Stalinist component of the political left has been historically very strong, NOBODY has ever thought to demolish Fascist buildings, nobody would ever accept to demolish this building ..

    .. just because Mussolini signed the Racial Laws discriminating the Jews! After the war, many Fascist symbols have been removed by public buildings but nobody has ever thought to delete and remove the historical memory of Fascism destroying buildings, artworks, monuments and sculptures!
    .

    This post sounds like a red herring. No one is demolishing buildings so I have no idea why you even bring that up.

    You say "fascist symbols have been removed" from public buildings in Italy. That is all that is happening here. Symbols of slavery and racism are being removed from public buildings.

    Irony being that Robert E Lee himself didn't believe that statues of the Confederacy should be put and glorified as that would be divisive and he felt it would be better to unite. Too bad the South didn't listen to him and listened to the KKK instead.
    "Our opponent is an alien starship packed with atomic bombs," I said. "We have a protractor."

    Under Patronage of: Captain Blackadder

  2. #302
    Elfdude's Avatar The Blue Spirit
    Patrician Citizen Censor

    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    7,338

    Default Re: Confederate Statues, Liberalism, Moral Relativism and White Supremacists

    Quote Originally Posted by Frostwulf View Post
    But that’s not what you said before, you stated “politically fighting against black rights. They were created on the cheap and mass produced to intimidate the black citizenry”. But as I pointed out that is not the entire situation! The older ones were memorials for lost fathers, sons and husbands, not for intimidation.
    You did not point that out at all. Find me one which you can say was erected as a memorial by folks directly related and not by a political advocacy group.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frostwulf View Post
    The point of bringing up Taney and the others was to show that it wasn’t only about the confederacy, but the bigger picture of slavery. If you look at the post I first inquired about you put this down:
    Once again it’s not just about the “lost cause” or even the confederacy, though they rightly are lumped into it. The bigger picture is about those who supported slavery.
    The lost cause mythos is about South being better with slavery. It is not about the Civil War. Sorry but you're off on an irrelevant tangent which has no relation to our discussion. They are all equally a part of the lost cause mythos.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frostwulf View Post
    I never said nor had hinted that most the statues were created “immediately after the civil war”. I was responding to your statement that
    So you were confirming they were not created in some public consciousness of confederate memorial but as deliberate incitement of slavery. Huh, didn't come off that way but I guess it makes more sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frostwulf View Post
    Again what coincided with these events? Could some/most of these statues being erected to spite the civil rights movements, absolutely they could have. It wouldn’t surprise me if that had been the case. But alternatively they could have been erected for southern heritage and those memorials who died for their own state.
    They didn't die for their state. They died for a rogue state and rebellion out of the argument that blacks should be counted as humans and not as livestock. The attempt to spin it as a method to preserve southern independence was just as much as failure during the war leading to massive desertions in the confederate army as it was afterwards.

    I would be legitimately surprised if even a single statue was erected as a legitimate memorial. Regardless it's not the few we worry about that fit this category. Over 99% were erected by political advocacy groups pushing against black rights. I'm sorry but history which you're crying about being destroyed says that these statues are publically protected insults to a group and were both advertised and intended exactly as that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frostwulf View Post
    Never have, in fact in other posts I had said that depending on the case statues should be removed.
    So then lets discuss the statues individually, the vast majority were created by political advocacy groups to fight against black rights. Those surely should be removed right?

    Any monuments exalting or encouraging individuals of questionable standing should also be removed from public spectacle as well right? I wouldn't want children taught that we want them to turn out as monsters who believe their fellowman is subhuman.

    Generalized monuments exalting the civil war itself should also be removed. Exalting a failed rebellion over slavery is probably a terrible message to send right?

    The monuments I'm ok with? Monuments in cemeteries to the fallen. Monuments recognizing the failed rebellion over slavery was ignorant and abhorent but that those people could've been saved had the specter of slavery not existed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frostwulf View Post
    so someone is obviously a racist, bigot, xenophobe, government conspiracist, anti-religious, religious bigot, hater, etc. etc. if they disagree with you. Nice!
    I doubt anyone isn't a racist, bigot, xenophobic, the human condition loves conspiracies, religion is stupid, judging people on their flavor of stupidity hypocritically is stupid etc. Safe to say nothing you do or say will indicate to me you're not implicitly sexist or racist. You grew up in a society which was, there's too many ways that messaging influences your behavior.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frostwulf View Post
    Lets try to be a little more kinder and less insulting, especially without bases.
    I'm not being insulting. I could care less if you feel personally insulted. Maybe disentangle your sense of self from this argument trying to push against destroying something which is insulting, demeaning and enshrines values we stopped agreeing with half a century ago.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frostwulf View Post
    I don’t necessarily disagree with you about removal of the statues, but most of your posts I was simply showing that there was more to the subject then you thought. And no, there are no humans that are sub human, people are people that’s all there is to that.
    Why would you support southern monuments which are directly connected to the Lost Cause mythos then? Are you that ignorant to not know better? There's 0 denying that they are connected although you've certainly shown ample evidence that you don't know they are connected.
    "Pride is not the antidote of Shame but its source, humility is its only true antidote." - Iroh

    "
    Quote Originally Posted by Pontifex Maximus View Post
    @ Elfdude, I don't give a for your condescending appraisal of my strategy. You haven't addresses a single point because I think you're unable to. I'm embarrassed for you honestly. Never has somebody so pathetically claimed the moral high ground. Piss poor debating, piss poor. I accept your surrender. Absolutely pathetic. Phalera my ass.
    When all else fails insult your opponents.

  3. #303

    Default Re: Confederate Statues, Liberalism, Moral Relativism and White Supremacists

    Quote Originally Posted by The spartan View Post
    No, you provided one quote that was about Lincoln's desire to preserve the union, and another from a debate in 1858. Neither of which expresses his personal musings on race.
    I literally posted an article from NYT, in which Lincoln's views on race are extensively presented.
    I am sorry, did you post the entire (or anything else) debate and I just missed it? I see in post #264 you claimed you were quoting a letter, which was untrue. Do you know what "clip" means? How about "piece", "part", "snippet", or "fragment"?
    I've posted a link to a letter that Lincoln wrote.
    The land is part of the United States, why is it more acceptable in the South? Or rather, why do you being in the South permits one to laud violent rebels?
    It is okay to praise people who fought the enemy, which in case of UCW from Southern perspective was the United States government. In Montreal we have plenty monuments for Quebecois leaders who fought the British and Canadian auxiliaries, and nobody is being bothered by that.
    The importance of those two events was that Lincoln managed to thread political needles. Lincoln manage to free slaves (as a nod to his Republican/abolitionist constituents) in a limited capacity so as to not lose the loyalty of Kentucky and Missouri, which were still slave states that stayed in the Union. These enactments are much more indicative of Lincoln's view on race than stand-alone quotes, in my opinion.
    Again, Lincoln himself stated that freeing slaves is merely a mean to an end, which he'd avoid if he could. These enactment's don't really contradict the views that he expressed on slavery and race.

  4. #304

    Default Re: Confederate Statues, Liberalism, Moral Relativism and White Supremacists

    Quote Originally Posted by IronBrig4
    I don't make any excuses for violence during the Indian Wars, but I can view the violence from the appropriate context.
    You are making excuses! If I were to take the same approach, then I would have to write that the confederates were living in their custom (like the N.A.s). So slavery was common at the time, though it was on it’s way out, but it’s understandable in the “appropriate context”. These men were fighting for their land and way of life.
    Quote Originally Posted by IronBrig4
    Again, I don't ignore the violence committed but I recognize it as standard for Victorian Era warfare between indigenous peoples and imperialist powers.
    I don’t ignore the slavery, but as a standard of economics for that time, the southern states were in the norm.
    Quote Originally Posted by IronBrig4
    The Native American descendants of those who fought in the Indian Wars went through generations of hardship on reservations and in boarding schools where their culture was destroyed.
    Many southerners who fought in the Civil War were thrown into poverty and a cycle of debt ensued and the "Southern way of life”(culture) was destroyed.
    Quote Originally Posted by IronBrig4
    In the Indians' cases, they didn't launch a war against the US. The US brought it to them instead and broke many treaties in the process. We put up statues to the chiefs to commemorate their decades of struggle against rapacious settlers, US soldiers, and horrific living conditions on the reservations. And monuments to Sitting Bull weren't erected as a means of shutting up local minorities.
    In the Southern States case they went through the "Tariff of Abominations" in the 1820s and the Nullification Crisis of the 1830s which helped facilitate the Civil War. They were afraid that the "Southern way of life”(culture) was being destroyed. And monuments to Longstreet weren’t erected as a means to honor murders, rapists, mutilators and torturers.
    Quote Originally Posted by IronBrig4
    And these statues aren't necessarily meant to honor violent chiefs, but their peoples. The chiefs are more recognizable than a squaw with a papoose.
    The confederate statues aren’t necessarily meant to honor the confederacy, but the men who died for their state and way of life. Robert E. Lee is more recognizable then a soldier with a rifle.
    Quote Originally Posted by IronBrig4
    If there were Native American hate groups who took moral support from those monuments, then I would consider removing them.
    You can apply that mentality to just about anything, the Mexican flag, the U.S flag the cross, the star and crescent, a monkey wrench and stone hammer. Should we remove flags and other symbols because of this? These statues/memorials are just that, memorials. Some to glorify the individual leader, some to remember the dead. If some group/organization uses them for ulterior motives, then that was not the fault of the statues/memorials, nor of the people who had them made.
    Quote Originally Posted by IronBrig4
    The fact is those monuments were put up by Lost Cause organizations to not just commemorate the dead, but to sanitize the Civil War.
    For some possibly, for others no.
    Quote Originally Posted by IronBrig4
    The speaker in that link I posted was going on about how North Carolinians had fought to preserve the Anglo-Saxon race.
    Julian Carr in his speech leaves very little room to believe that he is not a racist.
    Quote Originally Posted by JULIAN CARR- THE DEDICATION OF SILENT SAM
    The present generation, I am persuaded, scarcely takes note of what the Confederate soldier meant to the welfare of the Anglo Saxon race during the four years immediately succeeding the war, when the facts are, that their courage and steadfastness saved the very life of the Anglo Saxon race in the South – When “the bottom rail was on top” all over the Southern states, and to-day, as a consequence the purest strain of the Anglo Saxon is to be found in the 13 Southern States – Praise God.
    When Carr say’s “ saved the very life of the Anglo Saxon race in the South” he is talking about the way of life they had. He is a racist and his speech is a lost cause speech. But even in his speech it is very well spelled out in many places that this is to commemorate the dead.
    From the memorial itself:
    Front, on shaft: TO OUR / CONFEDERATE / DEAD


    Rear, on base: FIRST AT / BETHEL / LAST AT / APPOMATTOX / 1861. 1865.
    Had there been a statue/memorial to the dead Lakota and a speech given by Red Cloud in which he talked of smiting his enemy, I would have no problem with the statue/memorial even though they were not U.S. citizens and they fought against the U.S. It is simply to remember the dead, and even though Red Cloud is a murdering, etc. etc. the statue/memorial is just that, to remember those that died.
    Quote Originally Posted by IronBrig4
    And there are many more unveiling speeches that are more openly racist. http://www.tampabay.com/news/humanin...ritage/2327512
    I don’t have a problem with this one being removed. This seems to me to honor the confederate soldiers, not the dead, get rid of it.
    Quote Originally Posted by IronBrig4
    Had the monuments been intended to just recognize those who serve, then there should be USCT and Southern Unionist monuments everywhere in the South, but there aren't.
    Are there confederate monuments everywhere in the North? Yes there are some confederate statues in the capitol (why are they there?) but not very many. As with the Northern states so are the Southern, they built for their own losses for the most part. Non-confederate: West Point Monument at Elmwood Cemetery, National Cemetery in Vicksburg, Miss., Green Hill Cemetery, Kentucky, Natchez National Cemetery, Miss. I’m sure there are more.
    Quote Originally Posted by IronBrig4
    That's because white Southern communities were pathologically obsessed with maintaining the antebellum social order and enforced that with the most depraved violence until the 1960s. In the words of one of my committee advisors, the Union army should have occupied the South until 1964.
    Well that was quite the bigoted statement.
    Quote Originally Posted by IronBrig4
    Is your stance due to your disagreement with the scholarship
    I question the rendering of their conclusions because of how they say the majority of the statues/memorials came at the time of both Jim Crowe and the civil rights movement. Yet 20yrs into Jim Crowe is when the monuments begin a huge upswing, which just happens to coincide with the 50yr anniversary of the civil war. The other big upswing came during the civil rights movement, which happens to coincide with the 100th yr. celebration of the civil war. It seems to me that this was just about ignored except by the SPLC.
    Quote Originally Posted by IronBrig4
    or is it because you have sympathy for the Confederacy?
    I would have thought you have read my statements and would have come to the obvious conclusion that I’m hardly a Confederate sympathizer. But then again you did try to put “word in my mouth” that I never said nor insinuated. It’s very simple, statues/monuments that honor the dead and statues/memorials of some leaders Robert E. Lee (in Virginia only), Longstreet and a few others. Those of Davis and etc.,/memorials that just honor the “fighting” man need to be removed.
    Quote Originally Posted by IronBrig4
    Not being snide here, just asking. I get some of that among my students here in Texas. I even have a full-blown white nationalist in one of my history classes. He is one angry, frustrated white boy who I can guarantee has never kissed a girl.
    I understand, I have dealings on forums with those who suffer deeply with this white guilt issue. I don’t get it, I’m sure my ancestors did bad things, everyone’s did, but I didn’t do those things, nor did those who are alive today. But for some odd reason this white guilt really takes hold of the weak minded.
    http://worldnewsdailyreport.com/17-y...ng-born-white/

  5. #305
    mishkin's Avatar Comes Limitis
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    The Tribunal
    Posts
    12,645

    Default Re: Confederate Statues, Liberalism, Moral Relativism and White Supremacists

    Can someone explain to an European what that "Southern way of life" means. I searched for it in Google without relevant results for this discussion, in my opinion.
    So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth. (Revelation 3:16).

  6. #306
    alhoon's Avatar Moderator
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Chania, Greece
    Posts
    21,290

    Default Re: Confederate Statues, Liberalism, Moral Relativism and White Supremacists

    Please avoid repeated "My sources proved X" "No, they didn't" "Yes they did!" chain arguments. If after 2-3 attempts the other poster hasn't been convinced of the validity or not of some source, it is unlikely they will change their mind on the 4th attempt while such repeated posts slow down and disrupt the conversation. As such after a point repeated "I linked X!" will be deleted as disruptive.
    DIE: Diversity, Inclusion, Equality (Pun on SJWs, I am not far-right)
    _______________________________________________________
    Beta-tester for Darthmod Empire, the default modification for Empire Total War that does not ask for your money behind patreon.

    Developer of Causa Belli submod for Darthmod, headed by Hammeredalways and a ton of other people.
    Developer of LtC: Random maps submod for Lands to Conquer (that brings a multitude of random maps and other features).

  7. #307
    Diocle's Avatar Comes Limitis
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Amon Amarth
    Posts
    12,589

    Default Re: Confederate Statues, Liberalism, Moral Relativism and White Supremacists

    Quote Originally Posted by chilon View Post
    This post sounds like a red herring. No one is demolishing buildings so I have no idea why you even bring that up.

    You say "fascist symbols have been removed" from public buildings in Italy. That is all that is happening here. Symbols of slavery and racism are being removed from public buildings.

    Irony being that Robert E Lee himself didn't believe that statues of the Confederacy should be put and glorified as that would be divisive and he felt it would be better to unite. Too bad the South didn't listen to him and listened to the KKK instead.
    Sorry but I don't think so, in the States a minority is removing the statues of the veterans of the War Between the States and this is not the same as removing Fascist symbols from Italian buildings, this is just vandalizing history. Confederate soldiers are recognized veterans of the US Army, they MUST be respected as all the American citizens who fought and died for their country.

    Destroying monuments is different from removing the "Fasci Littori" from the Italian buildings, because the "Fasci" are political symbols of a Party, while the American Confederate monuments are just memories of the national history of your country. The fact you don't see the difference between vandalizing your own history and removing poilitical symbols, is a proof of the tragic depth of the American political crisis, destroying history is destroying identity, destroying identity is minimg the bases of the Nation as common home of a condivided memory.

    I mean that not seeing the difference between this symbol:



    and monuments dedicated to the memory of a great American general internationally respected, a gentleman and a good and chivalrous man like Robert E Lee:



    it means that something is no more working and/or is definitely broken in the American consciousness about its own history, its own common past, intended as shared historical legacy and let me say that this, seen the monstrous worldwide invasiveness of American Imperialism, is really a very, very, very bad omen for us all, Americans and not.

  8. #308
    Praefectus
    Citizen

    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    6,275

    Default Re: Confederate Statues, Liberalism, Moral Relativism and White Supremacists

    The fasci in their original context are symbols of a mighty empire, but not when aped in the clown Mussolini's silly charade. A statue of Lee by Lee's contemporaries might be respectable, but statues put up in the 1920's are as legitimately CSA as Mussolini's fasci are legitimately SPQR. Were they linked to the second incarnation of the KKK, that vile and cowardly gang of vicious scum? I suspect they were very much symbols of a faction, a party, a cabal and a conspiracy against the freedom of citizens of the United States.
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

  9. #309

    Default Re: Confederate Statues, Liberalism, Moral Relativism and White Supremacists

    Quote Originally Posted by Diocle View Post
    Sorry but I don't think so, in the States a minority is removing the statues of the veterans of the War Between the States and this is not the same as removing Fascist symbols from Italian buildings, this is just vandalizing history. Confederate soldiers are recognized veterans of the US Army, they MUST be respected as all the American citizens who fought and died for their country.

    Destroying monuments is different from removing the "Fasci Littori" from the Italian buildings, because the "Fasci" are political symbols of a Party, while the American Confederate monuments are just memories of the national history of your country. The fact you don't see the difference between vandalizing your own history and removing poilitical symbols, is a proof of the tragic depth of the American political crisis, destroying history is destroying identity, destroying identity is minimg the bases of the Nation as common home of a condivided memory.

    I mean that not seeing the difference between this symbol:


    and monuments dedicated to the memory of a great American general internationally respected, a gentleman and a good and chivalrous man like Robert E Lee:


    it means that something is no more working and/or is definitely broken in the American consciousness about its own history, its own common past, intended as shared historical legacy and let me say that this, seen the monstrous worldwide invasiveness of American Imperialism, is really a very, very, very bad omen for us all, Americans and not.
    Except most of those monuments have been put up as a dick move to the civil rights movements. They were not meant to commemorate history. So, getting rid of a lot of the Confederate statues is about removing the dickishness from USA.
    The Armenian Issue
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/group.php?groupid=1930

    "We're nice mainly because we're rich and comfortable."

  10. #310
    Diocle's Avatar Comes Limitis
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Amon Amarth
    Posts
    12,589

    Default Re: Confederate Statues, Liberalism, Moral Relativism and White Supremacists

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    Were they linked to the second incarnation of the KKK, that vile and cowardly gang of vicious scum? I suspect they were very much symbols of a faction, a party, a cabal and a conspiracy against the freedom of citizens of the United States.
    Correctly, you advance a question about those statues, because we don't know, or better we can't be sure about the intentions of the people sculpting and placing those statues where they are, meanwhile, we know for sure that the Fasci Littori used by Mussolini were instead the official symbol of the Fascist National Party, known as P.N.F.:



    So, it's easy to say that CSA veterans' monuments were not and are not symbol of any party, group, or political gang, they were and are just monuments to commemorate the sacrifice of brave American soldiers who bravely fought and died for their country in a terrible war between the American states. For example on the basament of this monument you can read written: "Virginia to her sons at Gettisburg" and this is not a political insult, this is just trying to preserve the memory of the fallen, just because then and now "Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori".




    I want to remind here that the USA officialy recognize the CSA soldiers as veterans of the US Army. So, those who want to remove the monuments of Confederate soldiers are not Liberals, they are just people vandalizing the historical legacy of their own country for silly and non existent reasons.

  11. #311
    NorseThing's Avatar Primicerius
    Join Date
    Jul 2017
    Location
    western usa
    Posts
    3,041

    Default Re: Confederate Statues, Liberalism, Moral Relativism and White Supremacists

    Quote Originally Posted by Diocle View Post
    I want to remind here that the USA officialy recognize the CSA soldiers as veterans of the US Army. So, those who want to remove the monuments of Confederate soldiers are not Liberals, they are just people vandalizing the historical legacy of their own country for silly and non existent reasons.
    I found this which seems to contradict your unsupported statement:
    Public Law 810 refers to Part II, Chapter 23 of U.S. Code 38 which says that the government should, when requested, pay to put up monuments or headstones for unmarked graves for three groups of people:
    (1) Any individual buried in a national cemetery or in a post cemetery.
    (2) Any individual eligible for burial in a national cemetery (but not buried there), except for those persons or classes of persons enumerated in section 2402(a)(4), (5), and (6) of this title.
    (3) Soldiers of the Union and Confederate Armies of the Civil War.
    No portion of the law appears to confer any privilege other than markers for graves of Confederate soldiers, nor does it grant Confederate soldiers status equal to those of veterans of the United States military. As of 1901, 482 individuals (not all soldiers) were already interred in the Confederate section of Arlington National Cemetery.
    https://www.snopes.com/confederate-soldiers-veterans/

  12. #312
    Diocle's Avatar Comes Limitis
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Amon Amarth
    Posts
    12,589

    Default Re: Confederate Statues, Liberalism, Moral Relativism and White Supremacists

    Quote Originally Posted by NorseThing View Post
    I found this which seems to contradict your unsupported statement:
    https://www.snopes.com/confederate-soldiers-veterans/
    My statement is fully supported, of course: the USA officialy recognize the CSA soldiers as veterans of the US Army. (this just because the USA are a civilized country, I suppose.)

    Here a small recap of the matter you can find with a short and easy search on the net in many sites, I made this easy search from Europe, and let me remid you that this is your history not mine, if you're American you should know the matter very well, at least better than me, but .. just to help your and our memory:


    .
    Congressional Support for Confederate Soldiers

    A Legislative and Motivational Review




    President William McKinley

    At the turn of the nineteenth and twentieth centuries, a move in the North was made to reconcile with Southerners. President McKinley was instrumental in this movement.
    When the Spanish-American War concluded successfully in December 1898, President McKinley used this as an opportunity to “mend the fences”.

    On 14 December 1898 he gave a speech in which he urged reconciliation based on the outstanding service of Southerners during the recent war with Spain.
    Remember, as part of the conciliation, several former Confederate officers were commissioned as generals to include former Confederate cavalry general, Wheeler. This is what McKinley said:

    “…EVERY SOLDIER’S GRAVE MADE DURING OUR UNFORTUNATE CIVIL WAR [SIC] IS A TRIBUTE TO AMERICAN VALOR… AND THE TIME HAS NOW COME… WHEN IN THE SPIRIT OF FRATERNITY WE SHOULD SHARE IN THE CARE OF THE GRAVES OF THE CONFEDERATE SOLDIERS…THE CORDIAL FEELING NOW HAPPILY EXISTING BETWEEN THE NORTH AND SOUTH PROMPTS THIS GRACIOUS ACT AND IF IT NEEDED FURTHER JUSTIFICATION IT IS FOUND IN THE GALLANT LOYALTY TO THE UNION AND THE FLAG SO CONSPICUOUSLY SHOWN IN THE YEAR JUST PASSED BY THE SONS AND GRANDSONS OF THOSE HEROIC DEAD.”

    The response from Congress to this plea was magnanimous and resulted in the Appropriations Act of FY 1901 (below).

    Confederate Cemetery. Congressional Appropriations Act, FY 1901, signed 6 June 1900

    Congress passed an act of appropriations for $2,500 that enabled the “Secretary of War to have reburied in some suitable spot in the national cemetery at Arlington, Virginia, and to place proper headstones at their graves, the bodies of about 128 Confederate soldiers now buried in the National Soldiers Home near Washington, D.C., and the bodies of about 136 Confederate soldiers now buried in the national cemetery at Arlington, Virginia.”

    Remarks: More important than the amount (worth substantially more in 1900 than in 2000) is the move to support reconciliation by Congressional act. In 1906, Confederate Battle flags were ordered to be returned to the states from whence they originated. Some states refused to return the flags. Wisconsin still has at least one flag it refuses to return.

    We Honor Our Fallen Ancestors.Congressional Act of 9 March 1906.(P.L. 38, 59th Congress, Chap. 631-34 Stat. 56)
    Authorized the furnishing of headstones for the graves of Confederates who died, primarily in Union prison camps and were buried in Federal cemeteries.

    Remarks:
    This act formally reaffirmed Confederate soldiers as military combatants with legal standing. It granted recognition to deceased Confederate soldiers commensurate with the status of deceased Union soldiers.


    [Editor’s Note: I might also add here that the opening ceremonies off every Sons of Confederate Veterans Reunion always include a welcoming address by the commander of the Grand Army of the Republic descendent organization…Jim Dean]

    _________________________________

    U.S. Public Law 810, Approved by 17th Congress 26 February 1929

    (45 Stat 1307 – Currently on the books as 38 U.S. Code, Sec. 2306)

    This law, passed by the U.S. Congress, authorized the “Secretary of War to erect headstones over the graves of soldiers who served in the Confederate Army and to direct him to preserve in the records of the War Department the names and places of burial of all soldiers for whom such headstones shall have been erected.”

    Remarks
    : This act broadened the scope of recognition further for all Confederate soldiers to receive burial benefits equivalent to Union soldiers. It authorized the use of U.S. government (public) funds to mark Confederate graves and record their locations.

    _________________________________

    Confederate Iron Cross. U.S. Public Law 85-425: Sec. 410 Approved 23 May 1958

    (US Statutes at Large Volume 72, Part 1, Page 133-134)

    The Administrator shall pay to each person who served in the military or naval forces of the Confederate States of America during the Civil War a monthly pension in the same amounts and subject to the same conditions as would have been applicable to such person under the laws in effect on December 31, 1957, if his service in such forces had been service in the military or naval forces of the United States.
    General Robert E. Lee.

    Remarks: While this was only a gesture since the last Confederate veteran died in 1958, it is meaningful in that only forty-five years ago (from 2003), the Congress of the United States saw fit to consider Confederate soldiers as equivalent to U.S. soldiers for service benefits.

    This final act of reconciliation was made almost one hundred years after the beginning of the war and was meant as symbolism more than substantive reward.

    Additional Note by the Critical History: Under current U.S. Federal Code, Confederate Veterans are equivalent to Union Veterans.

    U.S. Code Title 38 – Veterans’ Benefits, Part II – General Benefits, Chapter 15 – Pension for Non-Service-Connected Disability or Death or for Service, Subchapter I – General, § 1501. Definitions:

    (3) The term “Civil War veteran” includes a person who served in the military or naval forces of the Confederate States of America during the Civil War, and the term “active military or naval service” includes active service in those forces.

    Researched by: Tim Renick, Combined Arms Library Staff, Fort Leavenworth, Kansas. Member: Brigadier General William Steele SCV Camp 1857.
    Edited By: Lt. Col. (Retired) Edwin L. Kennedy, Jr. Member: Brigadier General William Steele SCV Camp 1857.

    .
    Link

    and ..

    .
    Confederate Soldiers are legal veterans... By Public Law 85-425, May 23, 1958 (H.R. 358) 72 Statute 133 states – “(3) (e) for the purpose of this section, and section 433, the term ‘veteran’ includes a person who served in the military or naval forces of the Confederate States of America during the Civil War, and the term ‘active, military or naval service’ includes active service in such forces.” As a result of this law the last surviving Confederate Veteran received a U.S. Military pension until his death in 1959, and from that day until present, descendants of Confederate veterans have been able to receive military monuments to place on graves from the Veteran’s Administration for their ancestors. A Confederate Veteran should therefore be treated with the same honor and dignity of any other American veteran.
    .

    Link

    So, those Vandals are demolishing monuments dedicated to the memory of American soldiers, this lunacy is not only indecent and immensely sad, but, seen from Europe, even extremely
    worrying.


  13. #313
    NorseThing's Avatar Primicerius
    Join Date
    Jul 2017
    Location
    western usa
    Posts
    3,041

    Default Re: Confederate Statues, Liberalism, Moral Relativism and White Supremacists

    Maybe we are talking cross wise on this. The Confederate soldiers are not treated as USA military service veterans even from your post links. The law authorizes that they be treated with respect with headstones if already buried in federal cemeteries and this does not address any statues -- just headstones. The uproar in this thread is not even about anything within a burial site in any case. I do not want to make a big deal about this. All dead should be respected where they lay no matter the circumstances. It is just the right thing to do. If we are in disagreement and I am in the wrong on this, my apologies.

  14. #314
    Praefectus
    Citizen

    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    6,275

    Default Re: Confederate Statues, Liberalism, Moral Relativism and White Supremacists

    Your link says "as if" "symbolically" and "equivalent" but not that they are veterans of the US army. Its clear the laws were made in the spirit of reconciliation and not to identify CSA veterans as soldiers of the US.

    Further the statues put up by filthy KKK scum (cowards who conspired to kill, maim and intimidate US citizens) in the 1920's are not covered by any law you mention.
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

  15. #315
    swabian's Avatar igni ferroque
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    3,426

    Default Re: Confederate Statues, Liberalism, Moral Relativism and White Supremacists

    Confederate Memorials hardly have anything to do with totalitarian styles. If it's about actual Roman art and architecture: I'm quite sure the Roman emperors between -50BC and 350 AD would have loved the style of the fascists and communiists. The Romans were into a culture that turned emperors into gods. So, there is no difficulty to draw a Bridge from totalitarisnism to the Roman Empire.
    Only the first Christians humbled and eventually destroyed this cult of god-emperors. I'd say that is interesting.
    Last edited by swabian; November 29, 2017 at 05:46 AM.

  16. #316
    Diocle's Avatar Comes Limitis
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Amon Amarth
    Posts
    12,589

    Default Re: Confederate Statues, Liberalism, Moral Relativism and White Supremacists

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    Your link says "as if" "symbolically" and "equivalent" but not that they are veterans of the US army. Its clear the laws were made in the spirit of reconciliation and not to identify CSA veterans as soldiers of the US.
    I see that we need to read again the quote I posted, the year is 1958, President is Dwight David "Ike" Eisenhower, vice President is Richard Nixon and in that year the Public Law 85-425, May 23, 1958 (H.R. 358) 72 Statute 133 states that:

    "(3) (e) for the purpose of this section, and section 433, the term ‘veteran’ includes a person who served in the military or naval forces of the Confederate States of America during the Civil War, and the term ‘active, military or naval service’ includes active service in such forces"

    This authorizes me and anybody else to say that those monuments and statues are monuments and statues in memory of the fallen soldiers of the Confederate States of America, and, seen that for the Law of 1958, the government of the USA formally recognizes those Confederate soldiers as American Veterans, even with the right of receiving public pension by the State, those who destroy the monuments and the statues dedicted to their memory are Vandals, who are insulting the memory of American Soldiers fallen in war.
    I repeat that in my opinion, this course of action is indecent, barbaric, and intimately sad, not so much for the fallen heroes of the CSA, but for the modern American "citizens" (sorry) who are acting as Vandals and barberians, trying to destroy and delete their own historical heritage; I want also to repeat here that this is even pretty disturbing, seen the horrid invasiveness of American foreign policy: in fact thinking about a big nation of 300 millions inahbitants, a nation with the largest military force of the world and with the most powerful and destructive nuclear arsenal of the world, without memory and consciousness of its own past, it's .. it's .. it's freaking horrid.

    About KKK, I don't know if the Statues were put in their place by KKK, but even if this were the case, this means that KKK in that occasion, and just in that occasion, has done the right thing, all the fallen American soldiers in fact have the right to be respected and rememebred by a nation that wants to be civilized.

    Those American boys, fallen wearing their grey uniform, should not be ashamed of anything, they were young American citizens who fought bravely for their country, they were not German Nazis, they were not SS, they were not genocidal Fascists, they were just young American men, proud to serve their nation at the cost of their own lives during a tragic war between the States more than a century ago, so, the memory of their sacrifice should be respected even in the places dedicated to celebrate the memory of them and of their short lives.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



  17. #317
    Elfdude's Avatar The Blue Spirit
    Patrician Citizen Censor

    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    7,338

    Default Re: Confederate Statues, Liberalism, Moral Relativism and White Supremacists

    Your term only applies insofar as the reconciliation laws and states such. The gesture of giving them stipends AFTER every Confederate fighter had died was little more than a gesture of goodwill. Most of these statues are not located in cemeteries which you could easily defend as permissible and memorializing the dead, they are located in public spaces specifically to push the lost cause mythos of the organizations who sponsored them. They are not works of art, most were cast on the cheap by manufacturers not through hired artists or chosen to depict any specific soldier. They were meant to depict the southern cause and were intended to propagate that message through the community. Removing them from public parks and recreation areas and keeping them in war memorials where they belong is not barbaric in the least nor is it attacking any specific soldier's family or descendants (because the statues weren't memorials!). The precious few legitimate memorials aren't what we're discussing here, we're discussing the 95% of confederate statues and memorabilia being placed in public life as an example of the greatness of southern plantation lifestyles.

    An appropriate comparison would be like private German citizens 50 years after the war erecting dozens of statues on the cheap which resemble Adolf Hitler, Hans Frank, Karl Brandt etc. and securing public land grants to do so. This is not about memorializing the dead, this is about memorializing the Southern Plantation Lifestyle which is a nice way to say memorializing slavery as good and just and inherently a part of Southern Culture which should be restored.
    Last edited by Elfdude; November 29, 2017 at 04:37 PM.
    "Pride is not the antidote of Shame but its source, humility is its only true antidote." - Iroh

    "
    Quote Originally Posted by Pontifex Maximus View Post
    @ Elfdude, I don't give a for your condescending appraisal of my strategy. You haven't addresses a single point because I think you're unable to. I'm embarrassed for you honestly. Never has somebody so pathetically claimed the moral high ground. Piss poor debating, piss poor. I accept your surrender. Absolutely pathetic. Phalera my ass.
    When all else fails insult your opponents.

  18. #318
    Praefectus
    Citizen

    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    6,275

    Default Re: Confederate Statues, Liberalism, Moral Relativism and White Supremacists

    Quote Originally Posted by Diocle View Post
    ..."(3) (e) for the purpose of this section, and section 433,
    Just to highlight the relevant point for you. Essentially this is a vanity clause and expressly does not grant the status of US veterans to CSA veterans except for two very narrow defined clauses.

    The Southern civil war monuments are not statues of US veterans. Depending on who you believe they are either rebels, or foreign enemies of the US. If the US in its generosity wishes to allow them some narrowly defined respect, as if they were vets, that is to the credit of the US, but it in no way makes reb soldiers yanks as you claim they are.
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

  19. #319

    Default Re: Confederate Statues, Liberalism, Moral Relativism and White Supremacists

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    The Southern civil war monuments are not statues of US veterans. Depending on who you believe they are either rebels, or foreign enemies of the US. If the US in its generosity wishes to allow them some narrowly defined respect, as if they were vets, that is to the credit of the US, but it in no way makes reb soldiers yanks as you claim they are.
    So you find it beautiful for a government to have declared war on its own citizens?
    It will be seen that, as used, the word ‘Fascism’ is almost entirely meaningless. In conversation, of course, it is used even more wildly than in print. I have heard it applied to farmers, shopkeepers, Social Credit, corporal punishment, fox-hunting, bull-fighting, the 1922 Committee, the 1941 Committee, Kipling, Gandhi, Chiang Kai-Shek, homosexuality, Priestley's broadcasts, Youth Hostels, astrology, women, dogs and I do not know what else.

    -George Orwell

  20. #320

    Default Re: Confederate Statues, Liberalism, Moral Relativism and White Supremacists

    Perhaps if politicians that ordered destruction of those monuments really cared about black people, they could have organized charities or built a monuments dedicated to their hardships from their own pocket. But hey, that would require them to actually care, while ordering removal of Confederate memorials is nothing but cheap and empty virtue signaling.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •