broken hoplites and pikes

[ragnar23]

I think it not just hoplites and pikes issue. All AI melee unit try flanking move. it seems like BAI have no concept of center.

[Dumanthis]

We have turned formation attack back on in the latest update in a test to see how it works, it may get applied to more units later.

I don't know if it was formation attack, but in 1.0 the hoplites and pikes were broken units (they had formation attack but i am not sure was it the cause). They seemed not to take any damage or morale debuffs when being flanked or completely surrounded, instead fought their way out like it was another day at the office. Played a head to head campaign with a friend and lost a nice battle that should have been my victory because they did not even flinch when being totally surrounded and attacked from all sides. It seemed that they had phalanx ALL OVER THEM

The 1.2 is better now since the hoplites/pikes seem to be more vulnerable to flanking and rear attacks though they need a lot of care in the battle field to make actually sure they kill and advance enemies, but they can kill, even fight other phalanxes. However they are excellent in the defence at the moment, though they can make dmg but it takes time. So my opinion is that it is improvement, not perfect, but improvement nonetheless

[KAM 2150]

Or even take formation attack out due to other issues it adds.

[Dresden]

Noooo

[PietrolEremita]

I have to report that I have seen this issue very, very rarely. Like 1 every 50 battles rarely. I have been playing the Seleucids in the latest (non-beta, patch 17) version, 150 turns in, and after conquering all the middle East, and I had this issue once. One battle! My armies have typically 7-8 pikes.

Are we sure we are not going to introduce more bugs to fix something that almost never happens?

[KAM 2150]

The issues is not in case of player pikes by AI pikes.

[PietrolEremita]

The issues is not in case of player pikes by AI pikes.

I know, I spent most of seleucid campaign fighting Egypt and Macedon. Still never had any issues (except once)

[ragnar23]

I've just tested vanilla pikes. 10 pikes vs 10 pikes. It is ancient time last playing vanilla and... I am surprised about What vanilla pikes are. It is total mess.

[Antiochos VII Sidetes]

What impact would you folks say the new battle changes have had on this specific issue? It's probably the only thing holding DeI back from being a perfect mod. My hoplites are constantly spinning on their axis and facing sideways against enemies, and pike formations seem to randomly come apart.

Has anyone had a chance to see if the new battle system has fixed this?

[Dresden]

Its not something we can fix, its the way vanilla pikes work. We can do some things to mitigate it I guess but we never can really fix it - CA would have to.

[Blothorn]

I have not had any troubles yet (as Antigonidai) as long as I am careful not to issue attack moves to pikemen/hoplites against units they are not already reasonably lined up on. (Straight movement orders can often substitute; click-drag to prevent changing facing is helpful.) Given that the AI obligingly commits suicide on my pike wall every battle, that has not proven much of an inconvenience.

[thesmoosh]

I don't people are communicating the issue clearly. I have a really hard time believing that what I'm seeing is intended and not a huge big introduced with the new beta patch.

I'll try and get a video next time it happens in a battle but right now basically all I do vs phalanx units is run away.

Rear charging them destroys your own units pinning them in the front because it shoves the whole plalanx forward shredding my main (these are heavy infantry by the way, not some squishy unit). Then there plalanx units turn around and attack my cav while my principes keep attacking them now from behind but with almost no result.

The only way I can break phalanx now is by extended kiting and by maneuvering units around their flanks without actually attacking just to get their morale to drop from "flanks exposed".

I'm playing on hard difficulty as Rome around turn 125 but like I said I'll try to get a video as I think it'll be much easier to understand that way.

I'm also seeing the issue another poster reported above where the enemy plalanx will pivot and and literally chop my plalanx line in half and proceeds to shred both my units and there morale.

[KYREAPER]

The only way I can break phalanx now is by extended kiting and by maneuvering units around their flanks without actually attacking just to get their morale to drop from "flanks exposed".

Hahahaha welcome to real life

[thesmoosh]

I couldn't find how to edit my post (I assume it's because I'm new) but it looks like I really need to proofread when posting from my phone so if a mod wants to merge/delete one of the posts please feel free.

Here's the corrected version, along with links to the replay and some poorly timed screenshots (I was concentrating hard trying to not lose all my units to a random rotating phalanx!)

--

I don't think people are communicating the issue clearly. I have a really hard time believing that what I'm seeing is intended and not a bug introduced with the new beta patch.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

More screenshots here: https://goo.gl/TMABMm but it'll be a lot clearer if you can watch the replay I think.

Right now basically all I do vs phalanx units is run away.

Rear charging them with cav helps but it also destroys my own units pinning them in the front when it shoves the whole enemy unit forward shredding my units (these are hastati/principe by the way, not some squishy unit). Then the phalanx units turn around and attack my cav while my principes flail at them from behind yet getting very few kills.

The only way I can break phalanx now is by extended kiting and by maneuvering units around their flanks without actually attacking just to get their morale to drop from "flanks exposed". You can see this in my replay here: https://goo.gl/Ag8EK9

I'm playing on hard difficulty as Rome around turn 125 (first set of reforms are done) and I'm using 1.2.2c (just added the fix pack today but it was the same issue before).

I'm also seeing the issue another poster reported above where the enemy phalanx will pivot and and literally chop my phalanx line in half and proceeds to shred both my units and their morale.

[Blothorn]

Rear charging them with cav helps but it also destroys my own units pinning them in the front when it shoves the whole enemy unit forward shredding my units (these are hastati/principe by the way, not some squishy unit). Then the phalanx units turn around and attack my cav while my principes flail at them from behind yet getting very few kills.

The only way I can break phalanx now is by extended kiting and by maneuvering units around their flanks without actually attacking just to get their morale to drop from "flanks exposed". You can see this in my replay here: https://goo.gl/Ag8EK9

I'm playing on hard difficulty as Rome around turn 125 (first set of reforms are done) and I'm using 1.2.2c (just added the fix pack today but it was the same issue before).

I'm also seeing the issue another poster reported above where the enemy phalanx will pivot and and literally chop my phalanx line in half and proceeds to shred both my units and their morale.

I started a VH campaign as Roma and forgot to reset battle difficulty--yes, phalanxes with excellent morale are rather tough to take down. That said, I have found them quite beatable.
- Principes are not notably tough, and hastati not tough at all. They do not really want to be frontally pinning a phalanx for any length of time--if you need that, use your own phalanx options (triari, AOR units) if you do not care about using historical maniple tactics (or use hastati and ignore the inevitable casualties).
- Unlike pikemen, hoplite phalanxes fight on multiple fronts fairly well (and reform well in combat). You definitely want to be cycle-charging cavalry to limit the retaliation inflicted.
- Bringing legionaries against phalanx units, expect the enemy to control the battleline--you need to control the rest of the field. Exploit the immobility of the phalanxes to be able to use envelopment tactics without fearing the enemy isolating your flanks. Once you have that control, ranged units to the rear of a phalanx can be devastating. (And if frontally pinning the unit, you do not need to worry much about friendly fire because you have a ~70% block chance they do not.)
- Try to clear out enemy skirmishers/trash before you let the phalanx into contact to get full "army losses" morale penalties.

[thesmoosh]

I started a VH campaign as Roma and forgot to reset battle difficulty--yes, phalanxes with excellent morale are rather tough to take down. That said, I have found them quite beatable.
- Principes are not notably tough, and hastati not tough at all. They do not really want to be frontally pinning a phalanx for any length of time--if you need that, use your own phalanx options (triari, AOR units) if you do not care about using historical maniple tactics (or use hastati and ignore the inevitable casualties).
- Unlike pikemen, hoplite phalanxes fight on multiple fronts fairly well (and reform well in combat). You definitely want to be cycle-charging cavalry to limit the retaliation inflicted.
- Bringing legionaries against phalanx units, expect the enemy to control the battleline--you need to control the rest of the field. Exploit the immobility of the phalanxes to be able to use envelopment tactics without fearing the enemy isolating your flanks. Once you have that control, ranged units to the rear of a phalanx can be devastating. (And if frontally pinning the unit, you do not need to worry much about friendly fire because you have a ~70% block chance they do not.)
- Try to clear out enemy skirmishers/trash before you let the phalanx into contact to get full "army losses" morale penalties.

This is all really good advice. I actually just noticed the little tip sheets on the main menu that noted not to play on hard battle difficulty so I changed the setting in my game and the ridiculous behavior was gone.

That being said I ended up changing back to hard because I was winning even army values with 100 casualties or less and it was less fun. I haven't had a chance to try the hardcore submod yet, maybe that will be better.

While I understand that playing battles on hard mode is not intended/supported by the mod, I'm basically looking for something that gives the ai combat buffs without making their units frustratingly deadly and unkillable where they can just ignore the mass (and attacks) of my units while rotating and getting attacked in the back.

[FlashHeart07]

Im not sure whether this has been clarified. But you have ofc changed the in game battle difficulty after starting the campaign at hard difficulty. If not. You are playing on hard battle difficulty and the enemy will therefore have stat bonuses changing the expected outcome of battles


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[Valmont]

It seems that the pikes behavior has been improved with the latest update according to some streamers.

Evidence here: https://youtu.be/Wsp9tDN1Xus?list=LL...qYsskEA&t=1223

[KAM 2150]

Nope, nothing was fixed in regards of pikes and CA introduced new bugs that they still need to fix, for example current version of DeI has OP pikes and hoplites because CA messed up stat bonuses (which ended with pikes having like 1000 def).

[Valmont]

Nope, nothing was fixed in regards of pikes and CA introduced new bugs that they still need to fix, for example current version of DeI has OP pikes and hoplites because CA messed up stat bonuses (which ended with pikes having like 1000 def).

That is crazy! Hope they fix that and other issues before the release... Otherwise they will be slammed by the community "EA battlefront style"