XDAI Diplomacy feedback thread

[xeryx]

In Total War games, the diplomacy system has always been unbalanced. However, it really is a keystone system for the game and if it doesn't work correctly then the rest of the game is unbalanced. There are a couple of fundamental flaws with the vanilla system and I aim to correct these issues. So, that Diplomacy can once again be fun and dynamic and attempt to simulate relationships in a dynamic way again.

The first issue is the point value at which you become very friendly or hostile towards another player. I can live with the friendly and unfriendly attitudes only being at the 25 point mark. The biggest problem with diplomacy is the hostile and the very friendly values are only at 50 points, which is only a 25 point spread.

The another issue is the extremely long term memory and the very high point values of the events or political actions. It would be fine if the faction did not care about what you do to others, but it does. So when you get a Faction that cares about 4 or five factions then you get some extremely high additive effects.

The last and most relevant point. Not all of the levels of friendship and unfriendliness are utilized or implemented in the diplomacy. By making these other levels relevant, I can hopefully create different stages of negotiation.

Because of these issues, you get an extremely unbalanced diplomacy and this is why you get relations ratings in the hundreds. The problem with this is that all relationships need to gravitate towards neutral. In vanilla they never do, they get at such high levels and stay there, that basically locks factions into always being at war or peace for the duration of the game.

In life, actions always speak louder than words
In the diplomacy system, I have four simple goals, that will take a lot of work to achieve.
1) Diplomacy must naturally over time head towards zero. In its current state, it can't.
2) Values of diplomatic actions and prejudices must have values that are reasonable and that fall within the set ranges of diplomacy.
3) The memory of those actions also has to be reasonable, so that #1 can be achieved.
4) Your actions will always count for the most points and linger the longest in a factions "memory"

Incorporating these ideas into the new diplomacy rules I am writing, is the first step. The second step is throwing out what you are used to with diplomacy in TW games.

In order to accomplish this, I have to have a separate diplomacy module so not to disturb players that like the Vanilla system..hey there could be ??? I also need to extend out the Hostile and the Very Friendly points from 50 points to 75. Sounds easy right!? wrong!! because the rules in diplomacy are not written that way. Fortunately, not all diplomacy rules take that into account.

The diplomacy action and treachery tables have to be balanced even more if I am to ever achieve my #1 goal. Fall off times of diplomatic actions have to be much shorter and realistic, and also have smaller values. This is due to the secondary relationships with other factions. Remember the goal is to be able to return to a zero by not allowing the cumulative effect of values to get out of control. I will use the cultural and religious biases as a permanent shift as they are permanent parts of attitudes. These will be used to keep you from achieving good or bad relations with a faction. However, in their current state, their values are too high and prevent dynamic relationships.

You as a player, have to forget all the years of abuse and it may even require some heavy duty counseling and forum support. You will also need to have patience because this will take a lot of time investment on our parts. I need you here to test and report your findings because there is no way I can have time to thoroughly test and mod.


So what will this achieve?
1) It will achieve dynamic relationships with factions that change way more dramatically over time.
2) You will have factions that start wars and then end them for political reasons as well.
3) Your friendships and enemies will change more often.
4) It will create a more meaningful bond with player to AI relationships
5) It may even help the AI play a better game.

What is the best I can achieve?
Hopefully, all of this work will create a dynamic system that both the AI and the player can benefit from. It is a tall order, but I feel it is achievable.

Remember my motto, and it will help you become a better modder, that is why it is in my sig and so I can remember it every time I am here.

So, how do you feel about this?

Hey guys if you have diplomacy questions or feedback feel free to post here.

[xeryx]

I just started a new game with the XAI: 1.05 and I can hardly believe this is the same game, that I started with months ago.

Diplomacy is so alive now. I have factions asking me for Trade agreements, military alliances, Defensive alliances, and best of all Military access first..before trespassing!! The AI actually seems to now care about its relations...I am so proud it is working this well.

I have had the Romans make peace with me once after taking one of their cities, I will have to keep an eye on the peace offers, as they maybe a little too eager for peace. It is all about finding the right levels first. I have been pleased though so far with the offers that have included money, they have been very reasonable.

For the testers out there, There is no way that every situation is going to be perfectly balanced on this first release of the diplomacy. I have to have details of the 2 or 3 factions that are involved. I must have the relations ratings, whether or not there is prejudice or hate. Personalities don't matter as much right now, as they are all the same values. You can use your mouse cursor to "roll over" the relations "attitude towards"

Also make a save! and label it at that particular point, so that if I need more info you can go back to that save and get at the info I need.

Screen shots like this provide me the most details.

[xeryx]

How come all I hear is crickets chirping?

Bare with me as I am not a good writer, but I will try and describe some of the cool things going on in my campaign.

I will give some general descriptions of cool things happening in the campaign since I don't want to tell a story.

1) My relationships with factions are changing much over time and are shaping up to be pretty dynamic. This will depend on my actions of course and who I decide to attack and such. The cultural, religions and personalities biases are really an important factor in this. The great thing is this, even my good relationships can go down close to neutral if I do not form agreements with a faction, even with the biases. This will allow like factions to declare war on me as well. This adds a new layer to my strategic planning. If I feel that I may eventually conquer that faction, even if they are like minded, then it is best for me to avoid agreements. With that said, since I can now have a faction break 2nd party agreements with a faction I do not like. I can now minimize the repercussions to my relationships with the factions that I want to keep alliances with. It gives a whole new layer of diplomatic manipulation to the game.

2) The AI is now sometimes offering Peace before it makes the decision to attack me. This has happened to me 3x now and it is refreshing to see this. It creates a critical diplomatic decision which is something I really like.

3) The AI is asking me for all ranges agreements now, at seemingly appropriate times even, so I have to pick and choose with whom I want to be allied with. The AI is being very active in honoring alliance obligations and attacking common enemies without even me directing them with the War Target. I was watching 2 of my allies start to attack Rome regions, and when I made peace with the Romans because they offered me money when I really needed it. They all stopped attacking Rome!! I have never seen that before. In essence, I was able to manipulate the situation, by taking a peace offer..pretty sneaky!!

One of my goals is to make defensive and full blown alliances a more temporary situation. That may last for 5 years on average. That way you have to work at them if you want to keep them for longer periods. I lowered the penalties if you want to break and alliance after the minimum number of turns, and it won't affect you for a very long time, but If you are treacherous and attack an ally the repercussions will be pretty dramatic.

Your actions when you attack factions will have higher points but much shorter duration. This will enable you to rally factions to your side in times of war.

Well, I had a feeling that something would not work, and this is it. A fair price though if everything else works.
These levels seem to work pretty well, breaking of alliances and other agreements.
War- Hey what's it good for?..absolutely nothing! Hugh
Trade agreements and Military access.


Here are the levels I am adjusting for the weekend update.
Peace- it occurs too easily but it now occurs.
getting friendly client states or vassals occurs too easily
both types of alliances occur too frequently or soon in the relationship.

[xeryx]

Good news, The offers and demands to join wars does work. WOOT WOOOT

[Giwrgos Stamos]

hey xeryx i started a campaign with the Franks,because i found the Langobards too easy,with everything with the latest pack 1.07 two things i noticed the AI was more aggressive not towards me cause all the germanic factiions starts ''easy'' anyway that was good to see,now about at turn 15 out of nowwere the WRE oofered me to make them puppet state offering me 9000 money also apart that i think it is too early but i saw improvement and second i have done a fort battle everything was good,but in my opinion is that it kind looses the tactin gameplay because of the fast play i was enjoying the movement of the enemy units targeting and attacking but everything happens too fast idk maybe the units running speed can change that idk,overall i dont complaining it s just feedback and a homble opinion about the battle thing.. also sorry for my english i write things a little messy when i have musch to say..

[xeryx]

Hey Giwrgos.

Thank you for taking the time do a report keep up the good work. You can always go back and edit if you need to.

Lets address the speed of battles and movement, I feel that the speeds of the units are actually pretty good overall. I know that it is faster than what you are used to but you can always slow down the battle if needed. The units speeds are actually to scale if I remember correctly. However there could be an issue with charging speeds I will check out the numbers and see. The battle speed creates a a tougher environment for the player and less time to react to the AI's tactics. But the AI does have an advantage to us in the speed at which it can make decisions, and can constantly adjust to your tactics easier. I appreciate you humble opinion, and will take a look. There is a possibility that there is something off with other adjustments made.

The puppet states are really annoying for me. They were probably offering you to be a puppet state if you were in good relations..but I need more specific information. There are a lot of variables.

So, if you can provide me the following.
First, hover your mouse over the relations and then take a screenshot by hitting F12 this will save the Steam screen shot. Then you can tell me more info by looking at the screen shot.

I need the green or red relationship numbers. This will tell me where you are in the relationship and in turn tell me the trigger level.

Edit; Great job on finding the movement issue, it is now fixed. I will post an updated version this coming week after I work on diplomacy some more.

[Morfans]

Started ERE test. Five turns, so far.

Hordes seem to behave. They offer peace (Visigoths included) then go deep into your provinces and start raiding. They seem to systematically avoid costly sieges, keep raiding and occasionally camp. All seems very logical and "historical". WRE does not call on you every turn against remote barbarian tribes. Very good, much fun.

Tributaries are somewhat odd, though.

[xeryx]

Yay a great report!!

Yeah the client state, or vassal in this case, needs a lot of work. Working on the levels, and I think there will have to be exclusions on some factions. There really is a lot to the diplomacy..so it is just gonna take some time to get those right. In fact, the client states are the hardest to control, because they have many variables in 2 different tables. I want to work on those last, and get the rest tuned first, because they will affect the client states. So, they will have lots of anomalies for awhile. I wish there were a few more things I could control with them. Like if they are a neighbor and such.

Currently, I am getting the baselines for trigger levels and how often factions ask for certain diplomatic actions.

For example: I lowered the levels for in asking for peace and it appears they are too low when a faction is at total war. I have seen a few factions being at war with more than 6 enemies, and that is a bit too much for their own good.

In my game the hordes are decimating a lot of territory.

What level are you playing on? Hard?

[Morfans]

What level are you playing on? Hard?

Yep, Hard.

This one is the only case so far - note that just before I ended the turn, they had refused the trade agreement ...

[Morfans]

XAI v108, difficulty = Hard, at the end of the first turn :

[xeryx]

Thanks Morfans!
I have decided that since vassals are so very difficult to control, that they need to be very limited. There just isn't enough variables to stop them when they should not work. IE the Imperium should stop less powerful states from vassalizing more powerful ones.

So now vassals will be limited to Huns only. Client states Rome only.

[davewolf101]

Continuing the Steam conversation...

As context: I just started the second campaign with your mods (complete Steam collection). And I usually don't play beyond turn 100. (Just hate it when it becomes sloooow and tedious.) Therefore the limited experience. These are just some personal thoughts. What you do with it, is up to you. It 's your mod! And apologies if I sometimes reply at the wrong module. Anywho...

- WRE, first game I (Ostrogoths) took Africa. Other than that they got even bigger (turn 84). This game, they lost Spain (thanks to me) and Gaul after a few dozen turns, still got the rest. That seems about right for the early 400's. In general I was just concerned that playing the WRE might not be a challenge any more. But I haven't tried them yet, so I'm just speculating.

- Hordes seem a little reluctant to settle down, even when the WRE is weak (particularly in the first game). Some of them just go on seemingly endless raiding sprees. - It seems to me often the WRE can deal with them one by one. Not sure if it's possible, but I think it would be great if the hordes could sort of attack the Romans at the same time. You know, like they smell blood in the water and all want a piece of the action. So the Romans have to fight at multiple fronts.

Might have more later. But I got to work too...

[xeryx]

Great thoughts Davewolf!

It has really been hard for me to actually play a long game, I always endup having to restart. I am actually glad to hear that the WRE are doing better. The main reason they are not being attacked as much is the Imperium that now occurs with the number of provinces. I will adjust that and give it a go. The imperium makes factions reluctant to attack a larger faction, which is very useful to keep the small factions from biting off more than they can chew. So, now we have a very good diplomacy for not only the AI but the player, which dramatically improve the strategic decisions for the AI as well. It allows the AI to focus more on one or two factions, for the most part. So please keep an eye on the factions, to make sure they aren't at total war with everyone. If so I will need too adjust the levels to a bit more peaceful setting. Difficulty does make a difference in that too, so Hard should be more aggressive personalities.

I will do some tweaking to the horde priorities, and see if they will settle more. It is important they do that and not just go on rampages all the time. If you can report the personalities of the factions, when giving specific info like that, it really helps me out, to pinpoint the correct one to tweak, as there are several.

Have you been paying attention to AI alliances? that is something else that is very important. The barbarians really have to become strong through the alliances in order to take them on. I don't know if you know this, but the game does take into account alliance strength, we just can't mod it.

I am glad you came over here to my quiet little broken down place to chat! I really don't like posting everything on Steam.

[Jules Brunet]

A little feedback about my ongoing campaign as Franks (turn 55)

I'm not saying this to please you but since the game release, this campaign is the most realistic and enjoyable that I had.
Alliances are believable and logic ! In the beginning I was close to WRE so the germanic/nordic tribes were not so firendly or at war with me and when I entered in a war with WRE, those tribes became more and more friendly toward me and few alliances were set.
I'm at war with the whole britain since turn 5.
The nomadic tribes are behaving in a really realistic way, even those who were forced to.
Since turn 35 the visigoths are in spain, first time I see them where they should be !
I'll post a picture of the map tonight but to sum it up, you did a really great job with diplomacy and I never saw a such realistic situation, no matter the mods I used.

[xeryx]

That is very good to hear, especially since that is only your second post! Make sure to come back and give us more updates. Please keep on the lookout for any strange occurrences as well. If you find any, please take a screenshot, and use the mouse pop up over the relations when you take the screenshot. That way I can determine a number of things for troubleshooting.

[The Tribunal]

one weird bug i've encountered as the Tanukhids is Queen Mavia's portrait turning into that of an old bearded man. looking around and attempts to recreate have uncovered that it seems to occur any time noble house & loyalty traits are distributed. What makes it stranger is that I see Mavia's original portrait on one of the elders, so it seem to just shuffle the portraits around after trait distribution.

[xeryx]

LOL, do you think they really shaved back then? It's not a bug. You have to disable Skidvars generals pack to play other Campaigns (at least I am assuming this because you didn't specify). You can download the mods separately and use the others if you need to. I have not finished the Charlemagne stuff, been working on the Grand campaign, because it is superior to Charlemagne.

Also the portraits do change, depending on where they are placed. If the issue does exist in the grand campaign, please let Skidvar know on his page, the link is provided in the module, and he maybe able to fix it.

[davewolf101]

Another campaign, with the Alans. I went south-east. then after Constantinople. People I attack and their buddies hate me. Their enemies love me. Things make sense.

I had no direct contact yet with the WRE. But indirect impact I assume, because I'm allied with most Germanic tribes and repeatedly drag them into war against the WRE/ERE.

It's 424 - where can I see the turn # on legendary? - and WRE very slowly loses ground, but still does much better than historically:



Not sure where to put this - here or at Campaign AI - the Huns are now #3:



They have a large collection of full stacks! But all they have done for a loooong time is having a beach barbecue and otherwise sitting ducks:



Anyway, another great game and my first campaign on legendary. So that was different...

[xeryx]

I dare you to try another game on legendary after this last build!! If you can do that, you would be my HERO! My first 40 turn of the game I started this weekend, has been very scary on hard. I would have liked to see their political situation, too (the Huns) I am pretty sure that they are pretty happy there, hell that is where I would retire. However one thing that concerns me is I would rather see them camped on the beach having a huge party. I would also like to see the fertility.

I actually fear, that with these latest changes, that Rome is going to be very powerful. The biggest thing I do not like with the game is that the Romans and Huns do not have set personalities. This causes issues believe it or not. I am thinking that I ought to make a module, that sets these to fixed personalities.

[davewolf101]

I dare you to try another game on legendary after this last build!!

As the Alans? Sounds like a challenge...

Back to the Ostrogoths for a moment. Stubborn as I am, I gave them another shot. (Also, they have an interesting roster.) So... I went South. When I arrived at Africa, I got a non-aggr. pact with the Garamantians. They even paid some money for it. But immediately after my turn this happened:



Reliable and defensive. Still they broke the pact before the ink was dry. Do the Ostrogoths have the "Most hated people in the World" trait?