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Thread: Disposing of Unneeded/Incompetent Generals/Family Members

  1. #21
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: Disposing of Unneeded/Incompetent Generals/Family Members

    Quote Originally Posted by alex33 View Post
    I love RP'ing but in case with the seleukids it's impossible not to kill unneeded FM's. It is so bloated that the main Sleukid family line dies out by the late game and that is really annoying. There are so many unnecessary FM's in the family tree in the beginning (so many who are really not relatives of the king) that you have to kill them off if you want a normal royal line
    I suspect the love for historicity of the EBII team trumps here over the love for the gameplay. All the generals must be put into the famility tree because there're sources mentioning them. It's perhaps difficult for the team historians to say "we'll, we know there're other generals, but for the sake of the gameplay we limit the tree". The other side of the coin is that it forces the players to behave un-historically. I think it's a bad deal .

  2. #22

    Default Re: Disposing of Unneeded/Incompetent Generals/Family Members

    Quote Originally Posted by Jurand of Cracow View Post
    I suspect the love for historicity of the EBII team trumps here over the love for the gameplay. All the generals must be put into the famility tree because there're sources mentioning them. It's perhaps difficult for the team historians to say "we'll, we know there're other generals, but for the sake of the gameplay we limit the tree". The other side of the coin is that it forces the players to behave un-historically. I think it's a bad deal .
    Let's look at the facts. The Seleukids have 23 settlements and start with 11 FMs. That's not exactly cramming extra generals into the game, especially given the need for players to use FM-led armies (and preferably with more than one FM in each stack). The family tree also has another 11 underage or unattached females, but that's hardly excessive either. The problem (if it is one) is that larger trees tend to grow exponentially, but even with small ones, all factions eventually bump into a situation where birth-rates are impacted by settlement count. That's hard-coded and there's not much we can do about it.

    What we CAN do is to provide a large variety of personality and ethnicity traits so the player has interesting individuals to play with, FMs who are different from one another and don't all come out of a cookie cutter. The team does not have "maintain Royal Families in perpetuity" as a goal, since there's not a lot we can do to control that once the game starts and the clock is ticking. If individual players have that as a goal, and find they have to drown half their FMs at sea in order to meet it, I fail to see how that is a valid criticism of the mod team or it's design choices.
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  3. #23
    alex33's Avatar Ordinarius
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    Default Re: Disposing of Unneeded/Incompetent Generals/Family Members

    Quote Originally Posted by Kull View Post
    Let's look at the facts. The Seleukids have 23 settlements and start with 11 FMs. That's not exactly cramming extra generals into the game, especially given the need for players to use FM-led armies (and preferably with more than one FM in each stack). The family tree also has another 11 underage or unattached females, but that's hardly excessive either. The problem (if it is one) is that larger trees tend to grow exponentially, but even with small ones, all factions eventually bump into a situation where birth-rates are impacted by settlement count. That's hard-coded and there's not much we can do about it.

    What we CAN do is to provide a large variety of personality and ethnicity traits so the player has interesting individuals to play with, FMs who are different from one another and don't all come out of a cookie cutter. The team does not have "maintain Royal Families in perpetuity" as a goal, since there's not a lot we can do to control that once the game starts and the clock is ticking. If individual players have that as a goal, and find they have to drown half their FMs at sea in order to meet it, I fail to see how that is a valid criticism of the mod team or it's design choices.
    Of course, all family trees grow large sometimes. But there is valid criticism here, you can't just dismiss this at a whim. I know that there are technical limitations regarding the engine, but the problem is that the seleukid tree starts too big and that on a nonhistorical background. I've tried multiple seleukid campaigns and around turn 100 the main bloodline always dies out because you get way too many generals, and it's incredibly hard to expand as the seleukids when you have to hold the empire together. Rulers back in the day looked very hard to get their male children married off, thats why those bloodlines held on for so long (ofc there where pretenders too and so on). The problem here in EB is that there are many interesting FM's who are needlessly integrated into the family tree without any historical basis. You could always make those generals who are not really related to the king be generals without family tree so that we get to have the main seleukid bloodline at least for a few 100 turns more, but i said the same thing for months and i know it won't happen



  4. #24
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: Disposing of Unneeded/Incompetent Generals/Family Members

    Quote Originally Posted by Kull View Post
    The family tree also has another 11 underage or unattached females, but that's hardly excessive either. The problem (if it is one) is that larger trees tend to grow exponentially, but even with small ones, all factions eventually bump into a situation where birth-rates are impacted by settlement count. That's hard-coded and there's not much we can do about it.
    The player is able to manage his family tree by (non)accepting marriages and adoptions. Each couple can produce 4 offsprings so if you allow a character to marry, you de facto agree to 4 more members of your family with a known bloodline and lifespan easy to count. If you want to keep the certain bloodlines, you do three things: 1. don't allow marriages of the other bloodlines, 2. don't adopt 3. don't recruit (these guys would come outside the family tree, but still count against the limit; to be frank: I don't know if recruitment is possible in EBII, but in many other mods it is). The goal of the family-tree-management is to keep the number of characters lower than the number of the provinces you own and to have guys with bloodlines you want to live on be able to bear children (married, proper age). Only then the children are spawn.
    However, this management is possible for the player only if there's no excessive number of married characters at the beginning of the game. If there're - the children will be spawned, the limit would be hit, and no further births would occur. The only way to break this is to send some generals to die.

    The decision is in the hands of the designers. I'm not sure if it's the case for Seleukids, this is just a thought, but if it's the case, then a player has no choice: either there'll be no children and bloodlines die out (unhistorical) or he drowns the excessive generals in the sea (unhistorical).

    Btw, I have a question: what is the age of the retirement of a female character? (ie: if he is not married, he disappears from the family tree).

  5. #25

    Default Re: Disposing of Unneeded/Incompetent Generals/Family Members

    As noted, maintenance of "Royal Lines" in perpetuity is not one of the mod goals. That said, it should be easy enough for somebody to create a sub-mod which does exactly that. All you would need to do is create a new descr_strat in which everybody not directly in the "Royal Line" is turned into a General (or removed altogether), give only sons to the starting Royal Family, and then as daughters appear and come of age, refuse all marriage offers. Voila.
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  6. #26
    QuintusSertorius's Avatar EBII Hod Carrier
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    Default Re: Disposing of Unneeded/Incompetent Generals/Family Members

    Note refusing all suitors/marriages seems to trigger a bug whereby you won't get any others until you resolve the status of the character the game has focused on. No one else will get proposals as long as whichever character you keep refusing suitors/betrothals for is unattached.

  7. #27
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: Disposing of Unneeded/Incompetent Generals/Family Members

    Quote Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius View Post
    Note refusing all suitors/marriages seems to trigger a bug whereby you won't get any others until you resolve the status of the character the game has focused on. No one else will get proposals as long as whichever character you keep refusing suitors/betrothals for is unattached.
    Yes, this is perfectly true. The management of the family tree has its limits - the player cannot do everything. It's exactly why I'm asking "what is the age of the retirement of a female character?" Lowering this age may alleviate the problems: if the age is 30 and the engine fixates on the women of age 28, then the player may just wait. This is less effective strategy in 4TPY than in 2TPY mod, but still it may give a choice. Of course, if the game fixates on a woman of the age of 20, then the player must agree and look forward for another chance. If the designers of the mod or a submod don't create too many character at the start (or the player accepts too many marriages later on) such next chance will come.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kull View Post
    AAll you would need to do is create a new descr_strat in which everybody not directly in the "Royal Line" is turned into a General (or removed altogether), give only sons to the starting Royal Family, and then as daughters appear and come of age, refuse all marriage offers. Voila.
    Only the option of removing altogether would work as the game engine doesn't differentiate between generals in or out the family tree while counting the limit against the number of settlements.
    Last edited by Jurand of Cracow; August 28, 2017 at 12:45 AM.
    For those who want to play a historical mod in a medieval setting:
    try either the Titanium, the Stainless Steel Historical Improvement Project + minimods,
    or the Broken Crescent + Buff and Shine submod.
    ..........................................................................................................................................................................
    Reviews of the mods: SSHIP (2018), Wrath of the Norsemen (2018), Broken Crescent (2018).
    Thrones of Britannia: review, opinion on the battles, ideas for modding.
    Minimods for the SSHIP: Generals Traits, Provincial Titles, Crowns.
    Short guides for the SSHIP: population growth, forts and watchtowers.
    Pros and cons of having Merchants in an M2TW mod.
    Home rules for playing a game without exploiting the M2TW engine deficiencies.
    Dominant strategy in Attila TW and Rome 2 TW: “Sniping groups of armies”.

  8. #28
    QuintusSertorius's Avatar EBII Hod Carrier
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    Default Re: Disposing of Unneeded/Incompetent Generals/Family Members

    It's in the descr_campaign_db:

    Code:
    <daughters_retirement_age uint = "40"/>

  9. #29

    Default Re: Disposing of Unneeded/Incompetent Generals/Family Members

    Quote Originally Posted by alex33 View Post
    I love RP'ing but in case with the seleukids it's impossible not to kill unneeded FM's. It is so bloated that the main Sleukid family line dies out by the late game and that is really annoying. There are so many unnecessary FM's in the family tree in the beginning (so many who are really not relatives of the king) that you have to kill them off if you want a normal royal line
    You can reduce the number of Seleucid family members yourself. In descr_strat.txt file located in data\world\campaign\imperial campaign folder comment out unwanted family members from the family tree by placing ";" in front of "relative" or their name in higher branch of the family tree. Then start a new campaign for the change to take an effect.

  10. #30

    Default Re: Disposing of Unneeded/Incompetent Generals/Family Members

    Quote Originally Posted by Jurand of Cracow View Post
    Only the option of removing altogether would work as the game engine doesn't differentiate between generals in or out the family tree while counting the limit against the number of settlements.
    Doesn't matter. Generals don't marry or have kids, and will eventually die out. They won't pollute the bloodline.
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  11. #31
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: Disposing of Unneeded/Incompetent Generals/Family Members

    Quote Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius View Post
    It's in the descr_campaign_db:
    Code:
    <daughters_retirement_age uint = "40"/>
    Thanks, QS!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kull View Post
    Doesn't matter. Generals don't marry or have kids, and will eventually die out. They won't pollute the bloodline.
    Yes, but in the meantime the spawning of the children may be blocked - if there's too many characters, the M2TW engine won't give children.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Blob View Post
    You can reduce the number of Seleucid family members yourself. In descr_strat.txt file located in data\world\campaign\imperial campaign folder comment out unwanted family members from the family tree by placing ";" in front of "relative" or their name in higher branch of the family tree. Then start a new campaign for the change to take an effect.
    Thanks! I'll consider doing it if I start a campaign with the Seleukids.

  12. #32

    Default Re: Disposing of Unneeded/Incompetent Generals/Family Members

    Quote Originally Posted by Roma_Victrix View Post
    My preferred method is to march them at the head of a large army against an equally large enemy army. You do not automate it at this point. This almost never kills your general off on a first go. With the battle underway on the battle map, march your forces right up to the enemy line, close enough so that they start feeling threatened and are shooting/throwing missiles while yours do the same. Then, use ONLY your general's unit to charge at the center of the enemy line. Your general's bodyguard unit, with its great morale, will usually never rout if it's so close to all of your other units, even though your other units are ordered to hold still and aren't really engaging the enemy. The AI will focus much of its energy on your general's unit, and it doesn't take long to whittle it away, eventually killing the general himself. Viola! You can then fight the rest of the battle if you want to, or simply tactically retreat if you want to preserve your forces without a real fight.

    You could do all that, or you could call my cousin Vinny. Yeah, he's a real wise guy. Knows how to take care of problems and pricks that make your life a miserable ing hell. Yeah, he'll do it nice and quiet too, put that motherer's brain to sleep.

    i bet that you played sim city 3 and called cousin vinny lol.
    Last edited by betto; September 07, 2017 at 07:54 PM.

  13. #33
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: Disposing of Unneeded/Incompetent Generals/Family Members

    Quote Originally Posted by Kull View Post
    The family tree also has another 11 underage or unattached females, but that's hardly excessive either. The problem (if it is one) is that larger trees tend to grow exponentially, but even with small ones, all factions eventually bump into a situation where birth-rates are impacted by settlement count. That's hard-coded and there's not much we can do about it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jurand of Cracow View Post
    The player is able to manage his family tree by (non)accepting marriages and adoptions. Each couple can produce 4 offsprings so if you allow a character to marry, you de facto agree to 4 more members of your family with a known bloodline and lifespan easy to count. If you want to keep the certain bloodlines, you do three things: 1. don't allow marriages of the other bloodlines, 2. don't adopt 3. don't recruit (these guys would come outside the family tree, but still count against the limit; to be frank: I don't know if recruitment is possible in EBII, but in many other mods it is). The goal of the family-tree-management is to keep the number of characters lower than the number of the provinces you own and to have guys with bloodlines you want to live on be able to bear children (married, proper age). Only then the children are spawn.
    However, this management is possible for the player only if there's no excessive number of married characters at the beginning of the game. If there're - the children will be spawned, the limit would be hit, and no further births would occur. The only way to break this is to send some generals to die.

    The decision is in the hands of the designers. I'm not sure if it's the case for Seleukids, this is just a thought, but if it's the case, then a player has no choice: either there'll be no children and bloodlines die out (unhistorical) or he drowns the excessive generals in the sea (unhistorical).

    Btw, I have a question: what is the age of the retirement of a female character? (ie: if he is not married, he disappears from the family tree).
    I'm resurrecting this thread as I got more insights on the matter after having played EBII a bit. The Seleukid case notwithstanding, now I think that the client rulers add very much to the problem of the family tree. As the game engine counts them as family members and, as Kull mentioned, the birth rates are impacted by the settlement count, the problem is that in many cases: family + client rulers > number of settlements, and the engine gives you neither children nor spouses.
    I'm playing a Pergamon game. I was in need to install client rulers as I don't have access to the govt buildings yet. The result is that after 100+ turns all my FMs are above 45. Over those 100 turns I got only two children at the beginning of the game but these were women and later they have received no marriage proposals (and I cannot do anything about it as there's no princess' mechanism in the EBII). I'll probably get to the point the FMs will start dying, but at that point, there'll be no women in the family tree able to give birth. I expect the game to offer adoptions at that point so this might be the way my family survives. Anyway, I find it now as something troubling about the EBII role-playing and the mechanisms.
    Last edited by Jurand of Cracow; July 02, 2018 at 12:57 AM.

  14. #34

    Default Re: Disposing of Unneeded/Incompetent Generals/Family Members

    Absolutely, client rulers are generals and therefore can put in jeopardy player's family tree, since M2TW won't allow family tree to grow as long as there are more generals than total number of faction's settlements. This is inherit problem for all M2TW mods that have recruitable generals. Since finishing my first campaign as Carthage I've stayed away from client rulers like plague as I prefer direct family line.

  15. #35
    Roma_Victrix's Avatar Gatorade, is it in you?
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    Default Re: Disposing of Unneeded/Incompetent Generals/Family Members

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Blob View Post
    Absolutely, client rulers are generals and therefore can put in jeopardy player's family tree, since M2TW won't allow family tree to grow as long as there are more generals than total number of faction's settlements. This is inherit problem for all M2TW mods that have recruitable generals. Since finishing my first campaign as Carthage I've stayed away from client rulers like plague as I prefer direct family line.
    [Joe Pesci voice from Goodfellas/Casino]: Yeah, for me it's a fairly pernicious problem too, in my current Epeiros campaign, let me ing tell you.

    It's similar to my previous Roman campaign, but a little worse seeing how the Romans, some of whom were my Sicilian ancestors god bless them, don't need to worry about maintaining royal dynasties like those Hellenistic royal pricks from Greece.

    Roughly more than half of my family members are over the age of 45, which demographically is a big ing mess, bigger than the one I made last night while whacking the no-good Gambino family with their greasy stained lobster bibs still hanging around their ing necks. I've got one Aikidai family member left, the current Epirote King Antiphas, as the other one, a 72-year-old faction heir, died this year. Antiphas has a 12-year-old son who's going to be a little man soon and get this: three ing girls. You heard that right, three ing girls and all the other Aikidai royal male family members didn't even get married except for the previous faction leader, who made ONE ing girl. Unbelievable, that Greek prick! I'd put his goddamn head in a vice and squeeze if he wasn't already frickin dead yet and buried 6 feet under.

    With that said, it would be good to revive the princess agent in this game, to at least marry her off to her royal male cousins and make sure some freaking babies get popped out of her to continue the damn dynasty. What's with these Greek pricks, anyway? They got no lead in their pencil? I could shoot out a kid or two, no problem.


  16. #36

    Default Re: Disposing of Unneeded/Incompetent Generals/Family Members

    I use my Roman generals as cavalry essentially. If they are not cut out for governing a region, it is well that they accompany armies and fight. I never get them killed intentionally, but I can risk them a bit, as they are field commanders and not paper pushers.

  17. #37

    Default Re: Disposing of Unneeded/Incompetent Generals/Family Members


  18. #38

    Default Re: Disposing of Unneeded/Incompetent Generals/Family Members

    Quote Originally Posted by Maroslav View Post
    pictures
    The sad part is Faramir survived...
    Last edited by tentaku; August 08, 2019 at 10:05 PM.

  19. #39

    Default Re: Disposing of Unneeded/Incompetent Generals/Family Members

    Quote Originally Posted by tentaku View Post
    The sad part is Faramir survived...
    Thats what TW is good for. Creating alternative history

  20. #40

    Default Re: Disposing of Unneeded/Incompetent Generals/Family Members

    Quote Originally Posted by tentaku View Post
    The sad part is Faramir survived...
    Too funny...

    I laughed so hard when I read that. Its too true... Not only are you useless, you also just wasted my time with this 5 minute battle... Just die already!

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