Charlottesville : Car runs into crowed amid violence at planned far-right protest - Discussion

[gradeAhaze]

The point of this really comes down to the fact that the statues were put up in the the times that the Jim Crow laws were Being written. Racist southerners and kkk members funded their erection during the time when Jim Crow laws we're at their height. These statues were not put up in memorial but to strike fear into blacks

[Acco]

If what I'm reading is accurate most of these statues are not even historical. They were not built as historical references but as tools to be racist whenever Black's suffered or attempted to regain their stature.

It's not a monument, but it's also worth pointing out that the Confederate battle flag returned to popular use in the 1950s as a symbol of opposition to the Civil Rights movement. Culture.

[IronBrig4]

I should also point out that the individuals defending the Confederate monuments are either unaware of or apathetic towards those same communities' refusal to put up monuments to the United States Colored Troops. Before 1990, there were only THREE USCT monuments in the former Confederacy, despite the fact that nearly 100,000 USCT were enrolled in Southern states (after the Union advanced there) and thousands more escaped to Union states to enlist there.

There's a reason why white Southern mobs specifically targeted black veterans throughout the Jim Crow period and especially just after Reconstruction.

[Ludicus]

The white supremcists and neonazis are more papists than the Pope. As we know, slavery was the main cause of the civil American War, and the war determined what kind of nation it would be -not anymore the largest slaveholding country in the world. That's the reason why,
The descendants of Lee, Jackson and Davis want the Confederate Statues to come Down

The great-great grandchildren of Robert E. Lee, Jefferson Davis and Stonewall Jackson have a message for those who adamantly want to preserve the Confederate leaders' monuments: Let it go.
Their message, all issued separately in interviews and open letters, are particularly resonant in a climate when there's so much controversy over the Civil War symbols and when the President of the United States himself said removing them is ripping apart the country.
"While we are not ashamed of our great great grandfather, we are ashamed to benefit from white supremacy while our black family and friends suffer. We are ashamed of the monument"

Nazis can't march anywhere without tons of people showing up to show how much they hate nazis. Good. But communists can march and they don't get nearly as much hate.

Precisely. Guess why, a picture is worth a thousand words.
Here, communists. They even take part in a coalition government formula, in a very successful, very peaceful, and pluralist liberal democracy. Here is a right wing President surrounded by modern communists during a communist festival,



And here,
Neonazis/white supremacists,professional haters. As Mongrel put it, "Identifying who is a Nazi could not be easier"




I hope you got the difference.

[Prodromos]

The UK did not fight over gays, washington didn't fight for slavery... It matters what the war was about, and that is why people are always trying to claim that it was just about states rights rather than slavery. Because they know that if it was about slavery, it is bad to glorify those that fought for it. But as we all know, the CSA and the civil war was about slavery. just like ww2 for germany was about nazism. The soldiers are not necessarily bad people, but their governments and their casi belli were bad. That is why you can't glorify them in public.

And no, these statues are in public spaces, and everyone has a right to go in public spaces. People shouldn't have to avoid the statues, rather, the statues should avoid the people. As i've said they should be placed in places were they can be seen in proper historical context, like museums and cemetaries, not in public spaces where they are glorified. For christ sake, these statues are found outside court houses and state houses! You can't expect people to just "avoid" those places.

It's quite a stretch to go from, "the Confederacy fought a war to keep slavery", to, "every individual, every soldier, every general who participated in the war, was a bloodthirsty savage who did so out of the evil in his heart."

I can oppose their government, but I respect them as soldiers and people. It's basic honor, really. I have no problem with a monument honoring the victims and participants of the Civil War, on either side. And according to this poll, neither do most Americans, including a plurality of blacks, and a large majority of whites and Latinos.

African-Americans are divided on the question — but a plurality agree they should stay, 44 percent to 40 percent. Two-thirds of whites and Latinos believe the statues should remain as well.

The only groups in which a plurality said the statues should be removed are Democrats, especially those identifying as "strong Democrats," those identifying as "very liberal" and those who disapprove of the president.

Even Democrats don't have majority support for removing them. It's a non-issue. You're maybe being misled by the media and some left-wing Americans, who have an interest in blowing this out of proportion to create a sense of crisis.

The locals have the right to decide what monuments to allow on public or government property, but I can't figure out why people from other cities and regions, who have nothing but utter disdain for the locals, legitimately think that their personal wishes should be implemented by the locals.

My view is to let bygones be bygones. There is nothing to gain from this, other than more conflict and division, which I think the world is stocked up on. But I guess Democrats just need to create phantom enemies to keep the people divided. We already have Islam and Putin as enemies to fight, guys.

[Surgeon]

Wonder if the White House can put some sort of pressure on mayors who tell police to stand down. Make an example of the Charlottesville one, maybe the rest will suddenly become concerned with keeping the peace ffs.

[Fourteen]

e

[Love Mountain]

I would like to again remind the people in this thread that these monuments are part of history, regardless of why, how, or who built them. It should be documented, and if it is offensive to the city, remove and place them to storage. Actually, elfdude has a fantastic proposal.

Personally I can start to see the point of historical importance but I think I see it completely different than the Alt-Right, IMO each of these statues should be placed into a publicly funded museum of shame so no one can forget how awful these people were.

I for one would be on-board about a National Museum of Shame. Where children can go to learn about proud tradition of historic revisionism and acts of genocide that nobody talks about that often. How prevalent white racism was and still is, genocide of Native Americans, as well as our country still committed people to torture in the 21st century. Hell, maybe politicians can learn something too. I'd be willing to pay taxes for that, and as a bonus, we can tax racists as well.

I think it's a fantastic idea and a great place to shove all the racist monuments too. Hell, you can switch out the displays every week for variety!

[NorseThing]

I would like to again remind the people in this thread that these monuments are part of history, regardless of why, how, or who built them. It should be documented, and if it is offensive to the city, remove and place them to storage. Actually, elfdude has a fantastic proposal.



I for one would be on-board about a National Museum of Shame. Where children can go to learn about proud tradition of historic revisionism and acts of genocide that nobody talks about that often. How prevalent white racism was and still is, genocide of Native Americans, as well as our country still committed people to torture in the 21st century. Hell, maybe politicians can learn something too. I'd be willing to pay taxes for that, and as a bonus, we can tax racists as well.

I think it's a fantastic idea and a great place to shove all the racist monuments too. Hell, you can switch out the displays every week for variety!

Museum of Shame might work. Melting the metal monuments down for a special issue of US coin might be another possibility. The point though should making the decisions locally and not nationally. The fact that a man is monumentally remembered might just mean he was important to the community or he did some works to be remembered. Let us not be blinded by the current uproar. Pulling down a statue just because he served in the rebellion is a bit narrow minded and shows no respect for the deliberative process and the rule of such laws/ or even at the state governor's discretion.

[IronBrig4]

The locals have the right to decide what monuments to allow on public or government property, but I can't figure out why people from other cities and regions, who have nothing but utter disdain for the locals, legitimately think that their personal wishes should be implemented by the locals.

But the local city council voted for it, and the woman who was murdered was a local. Plus I don't think the assorted Nazi scum were locals.

[RandomPerson2000]

lol if you showed the guys on the landing boats heading towards Normandy a video of 2017 America, they would have joined Hitler on the spot. The average american soldier at that time probably hated blacks more than the average nazi did.

Actually if you did show them a video of 2017 America they will probably be far more interested into what they perceive as very wierd cars, phones, televisions, cameras and strange new pieces of technology such as space travel than any bit of modern politics, also they will probably be baffled and confused on what politics in 2017 is considering the state of American and international politics have changed greatly within the last 73 years. I would seriously doubt that they would have defected to the Wehrmacht considering Nazi Germany was internationally vilified at that time for their highly expansionist policies (Examples of this would include the invasions of countries like France, Poland, Yugoslavia, the Soviet Union, Greece, and neutral countries such as Belgium, Luxembourg, Norway, Denmark and the Netherlands) and Nazi Germany was pretty much officially allied to the Empire of Japan, a country that the Americans at that time hated far more intensely than Nazi Germany for obvious reasons.

[IronBrig4]

Despite Jim Crow and other abuses, the US government and military stressed tolerance at least on the PR front. Just not toward Japanese.

[Acco]

I would like to again remind the people in this thread that these monuments are part of history, regardless of why, how, or who built them. It should be documented, and if it is offensive to the city, remove and place them to storage. Actually, elfdude has a fantastic proposal.

The Confederate battle flag and the many monuments erected during the Jim Crow era certainly comprise an integral part of history - eras where the white South attempted to reassert social control over a black population that wasn't as servile as it was during the antebellum era. Let's keep markers to those eras in a museum, to educate future populations, while awarding public monuments to individuals and groups who more accurately reflect modern American culture and values.

[NorseThing]

Yes the expected is now happening.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/08/18/us/leg...ers/index.html

Let us pass more laws so the politicians can convince the voters that something is being done. Pass laws to make it harder for victims of vehicular smack downs to sue or otherwise get justice for being hit while protesting. Perhaps my inner sarcasm is showing, but this may be why politicians have such a hard time establishing credibility.

[Fourteen]

e

[mongrel]

Alt this, Alt that. I suspect we have an alt in our midst. I wonder if my own provocative presence inspired the creation.

In any case, you are wrong about that. Islam is growing rapidly by the day. On that basis Islam is not under any threat. The white nationalist response is very different because it's a response to a genuine threat. All the figures show white people will be a minority in the US by 2050. In Europe we will see a similar if less rapid decline.

How is that a threat? The US is composed of all of its citizens, not just those of one colour. Despite the efforts of the KKK etc it is no longer an apartheid state.

Good post, and this issue has not been covered enough in this thread. The police effectively threw the lawful assembly to the baying wolves by removing themselves as a barrier and standing down. Many on the right are now of the opinion that this was the authority's plan all along, and they effectively set-up the lawful assembly to be attacked by violent, leftist thugs.

The effect of the police betrayal is clear. Many of the people in the lawful assembly were viciously attacked, including "Baked Alaska", a Youtuber with 17k subs. He had acid sprayed in his face. He may now be permanently blind. Strange how the media never mentioned that, isn't it?

Permanently blind Nazi?




Baked Alaska was maced, not sprayed with acid, presumably in self defence.As he seems able to use twitter I presume he can see, indeed he says so.Putting your lies aside, are we forgetting that a Nazi commited a terrorist attack leading to loss of life? He will make a full recovery, which is more than you can say for that woman.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/08/18/us/leg...ers/index.html

Let us pass more laws so the politicians can convince the voters that something is being done. Pass laws to make it harder for victims of vehicular smack downs to sue or otherwise get justice for being hit while protesting. Perhaps my inner sarcasm is showing, but this may be why politicians have such a hard time establishing credibility.

Wow. Giving terrorists a free pass. With even Fox News encouraging the murder of liberals by car (see earlier post) I wonder what kind of country is the US developing into?

Learn a little about the way the people of the south were treated by the north after the war had ended. Learn about the humiliations and forced hardships they suffered after they had bended the knee.

Must have been terrible not having black people do all their bloody work for them , or black people not making themselves available for sexual assault,beatings or murder. Although actually the latter didn't stop until well into the next century.

[Love Mountain]

Keeping them in a museum is no way for the people of the south to honour their ancestors. You still don't get it, do you? When a son still loves his father, despite the father committing crimes, that does not mean that the son approves of the crimes committed.

That's up to the people of each individual community to decide. Not you. Or any right-winger who comes down to protest their removal. You forfeit that right when you move out or don't live there. Disrespect for the local civil process will get you nowhere, nor should it.

[IronBrig4]

Must have been terrible not having black people do all their bloody work for them , or black people not making themselves available for sexual assault,beatings or murder. Although actually the latter didn't stop until well into the next century.

He must be referring to how blacks were enfranchised and how those new rights were enforced by the Seventh Cavalry and USCT. Black soldiers policed white Southerners and kept the lynch mobs away. The nerve! Oh my stars and garters!



The South got off easy. Reconstruction didn't fail so much as it was killed by malicious Southern elites and by other politicians who just wanted to put the war behind them.

[Fourteen]

e

[mongrel]

Just lol if you don't think the majority of Southerners want the monuments to remain. Despite the underhanded offers made to local councillors. .

The US Naturalization act of 1790 clearly states:

Any alien, being a free White person, who shall have resided within the limits and under the jurisdiction of the United States, for the term of two years, may be admitted to become a citizen thereof...

The founding fathers wrote that act. If you don't believe they intended the US to remain as a white nation you are deluded. They intended the US to be a second Europe. .

Americans used to hang witches too. The Immigration and Nationality Act of 1965 supercedes that ancient and racist text.It is not delusional to believe that Americans are subject to the extant law, it's common sense.

We hope and pray it was just mace. It is still not clear. Anyone can dictate a twitter message. But the news thankfully now appears somewhat positive. Baked Alaska is a peaceful man and did not deserve the violent attack he suffered. .

Hope?It was mace, well pepper spray. The video of the attack makes that clear. Five minutes ago you said he would be permanently blinded, yet now you are giving thanks to the Almighty that your lie is not so?
.He's a Nazi, so by definitely cannot be said to be 'peaceful'.

Are we forgetting that the "Nazi" is a diagnosed schizophrenic? I stated at the start of this thread that James Fields is a mentally ill person and was met with derision. Now that you leftist see the evidence you prefer to just ignore it all together.

He's a terrorist ,who should face justice.

No free pass, just acknowledgement that James Fields was at the time surrounded by violent, angry leftist armed with bats.

Video footage would suggest that wasn't what happened.I can see he was surrounded by bins and parked motorcycles.

Hopefully the US is not developing into a similar place as Europe, where muslims carry out actual pre-meditated vehicle attacks every other month and kill dozens of native people.

Seems to me as if the Nazis are America's ISIS. They always have been. I have never seen an ISIS attack where they have only attacked one specific group of people, they kill indiscriminately. Are you implying that the black , yellow and brown victims of terrorism don't matter?

The fact you would write that shows you know nothing of how the southerners suffered at the hands of the northerners after the war, and shows you know nothing of which you speak.

They seem to be free enough to vote and enjoy their property and civil rights, which is certainly more than Black citizens or Native, dare I say proper, Americans had.