Charlottesville : Car runs into crowed amid violence at planned far-right protest - Discussion

[mongrel]

I have a better idea. How about you mind your own business, and keep your redecoration suggestions limited to your state, and Southerners will decide what to do with Southern monuments? I mean, do you see Southerners trying to remove Lenin statues in your region?

Which Southerners? If a town votes to be rid of Confederate relics, are you saying that the rentaracists will be content with that outcome?

[caratacus]

The whole Charlotteville thing has been cooked up to discredit Trump, its a work. Why don't Americans actually ask themselves why there is suddenly a movement to remove Confederate statues, why a conflict of extremists was facilitated and why the debate is on Trump's views rather than on the real issue of law and order. It is a creeping coup using movements like BLM and branding Trump's support base among the Alt Right as a threat to democracy and civil order. It is no coincidence that after months of covering a Russian interference in American politics and Trump's role, this has now been totally replaced with Trump the fascist sympathizer. The American media and the establishment are working to discredit the president among the American people and it stinks.

It seems to me you don't need Russians to ferment discord and destabilize American society, Americans are already doing a good job of it themselves.

Confederate Monuments Are Coming Down
Across the United States. Here’s a List.
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...d.html?mcubz=3

The anti Trump establishment are so fixated in ousting the President, that they are quite prepared to open up enmities that have remained buried for 150 years. They have already inflicted major damage upon diplomatic relations with Russia.

Is America Headed for a New Kind of Civil War?
http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-d...d-of-civil-war

[Prodromos]

That only applied to white Confederates. I'm surprised I need to remind you of this, because the central reason for the move to be rid of these monuments is tied to this basic premise.Isn't it about time these white supremacists become reconciled with the fact that black people, Jews, Hispanics, or indeed liberal people of any creed or colour, have the right to actually exist, and live a reasonably peaceful life?

You have no knowledge of the thoughts and motivations of the region's people. You clearly have no consideration for what a large chunk of the population consider sacred. Since your loyalty isn't to them, you have no skin in the game. Again I recommend you keep your suggestions limited to the nations your loyalty lies with, and allow other people to decide what monuments and statues to raise in their own neighborhoods.

[mongrel]

@caractus....They need people to discredit Trump?


I hear someone got killed by some terrorist driving into a crowd in Spain. I'm waiting for TWC's white supremacists and Trump fans to blame this latest attack on antifa, liberals and a lack of statues.

You have no knowledge of the thoughts and motivations of the region's people. You clearly have no consideration for what a large chunk of the population consider sacred. Since your loyalty isn't to them, you have no skin in the game. Again I recommend you keep your suggestions limited to the nations your loyalty lies with, and allow other people to decide what monuments and statues to raise in their own neighborhoods.[

You seem to have no knowledge of America's black people, a sizeable portion of the South's population, or other peoples. It is reasonable to presume that they have no sentimental attachment to what they perceive was an inhuman,brutal regime. When the KKK , militias and Nazis admit non-White people into their ranks then you might have cause to speak for the South as it is, not the one that was stomped on more than a century ago.

[The spartan]

Huge difference, right. Most western countries still tolerate the commies and the antifa because they never had to experience what its like when the commies have actual power over them, thats the huge ing difference.
You better wake up from these pipe dreams that the commies are any better than the nazis.

But there are no commies in congress, so I am confused as to why people think the Communists are taking over. How would they possibly be doing that without a government presence?

The whole Charlotteville thing has been cooked up to discredit Trump, its a work. Why don't Americans actually ask themselves why there is suddenly a movement to remove Confederate statues, why a conflict of extremists was facilitated and why the debate is on Trump's views rather than on the real issue of law and order. It is a creeping coup using movements like BLM and branding Trump's support base among the Alt Right as a threat to democracy and civil order. It is no coincidence that after months of covering a Russian interference in American politics and Trump's role, this has now been totally replaced with Trump the fascist sympathizer. The American media and the establishment are working to discredit the president among the American people and it stinks.

It seems to me you don't need Russians to ferment discord and destabilize American society, Americans are already doing a good job of it themselves.

Oh boy, here come the conspiracies. It is amazing the lengths people will go through to defend literally Nazis. How were the events "cooked up" exactly? Someone was killed by a car driven by a (very likely) Nazi sympathizer, what part of that is made up to discredit Trump? Just because Trump fumbled his response we should belittle the victims? This is why much of the mainstream is worried; they are worried about people who are bending over backwards to defend the Nazis and the KKK all because they see it as another political battleground. This thread had to shut down twice so mods could delete comments COMMENDING the guy who is up for murder.

Time for people on both sides to admit that both sides have violent hate groups on their fringes.

On the fringe of the right is the alt-right, the KKK and whatever other white supremacist groups exist there. They're violent, hateful and should be denounced. It is not OK to say the things they say (such as white people are superior) and do the things they do.

On the fringe of the left is Antifa, BLM, BAMN and whatever other violent hate groups exist there. They're violent, hateful and should be denounced. It's not OK for them to say the things they say (such as calling for white genocide, calling for the death of cops) and it's not OK to do the things they do.

Everybody on the left needs to stop calling everybody on the right Nazis because they disagree with them. Everybody on the right needs to stop calling everybody on the left SJW's and Marxists because they disagree with them.

The media needs to stop pretending left wing hate groups do not exist, OR pretending that Antifa and BLM are not violent, because they are. I can show you video compilations of their violence over an hour long.

If everybody keeps doing what they've been doing so far you're going to see the ranks of these extremists grow and the situation become more violent. That may suit the violence-fuelled haters in the KKK, the alt-right and Antifa, but it's bad for the rest of the nation. Seriously, it's time to talk and acknowledge and discuss the wrongs on both sides before this goes further.

While there is extremism in all political directions, and extremism should be denounced, there is a lot suspect about people wanting to equivocate the KKK and Nazis with Leftist Groups. We have been through this back in the civil rights days when a lot of "behaved" southerns were big on condemning both the KKk AND the NAACP because, you know, they BOTH did equally bad things, right?

[Elfdude]

I have a better idea. How about you mind your own business, and keep your redecoration suggestions limited to your state, and Southerners will decide what to do with Southern monuments? I mean, do you see Southerners trying to remove Lenin statues in your region?

Southerners voted to remove said statue in charlottesville, it was out of state white supremacists who freaked out.

Methinks you thought this logic would prove your point when in actuality it supports the removal of the statue and calls into question the unite the right rally itself.

Hmmm.

As for your dimestore fallacious logic of who can comment on what things and why, I'm sorry but artificial borders created around political governance have very little (aka: nothing) to do with one's right to comment on a subject.

[mongrel]

This thread had to shut down twice so mods could delete comments COMMENDING the guy who is up for murder.
While there is extremism in all political directions, and extremism should be denounced, there is a lot suspect about people wanting to equivocate the KKK and Nazis with Leftist Groups. We have been through this back in the civil rights days when a lot of "behaved" southerns were big on condemning both the KKk AND the NAACP because, you know, they BOTH did equally bad things, right?

Indeed. in over 10 years in the 'pit, with all the terrorist and other events that have place over that period, this seems to be the only event where members have justified or glorified a terrorist murder. Should be ashamed of themselves.

[Prodromos]

@caractus....They need people to discredit Trump?


I hear someone got killed by some terrorist driving into a crowd in Spain. I'm waiting for TWC's white supremacists and Trump fans to blame this latest attack on antifa, liberals and a lack of statues.



You seem to have no knowledge of America's black people, a sizeable portion of the South's population, or other peoples. It is reasonable to presume that they have no sentimental attachment to what they perceive was an inhuman,brutal regime. When the KKK , militias and Nazis admit non-White people into their ranks then you might have cause to speak for the South as it is, not the one that was stomped on more than a century ago.

Don't worry about the KKK; the Democrats' armed wing was defeated years ago. The main threat to black people is the Democratic politicians killing them in the womb, and keeping the ones that survive in perpetual poverty, ignorance, fear and division.

[NosPortatArma]

But there are no commies in congress, so I am confused as to why people think the Communists are taking over. How would they possibly be doing that without a government presence?

biggest difference is that nazis are universally recognised and hated. nearly everyone, except nazis themselves, hate nazis and their symbols. Everyone already knows they are dangerous. With communists, not so much. Nazis can't march anywhere without tons of people showing up to show how much they hate nazis. Good. But communists can march and they don't get nearly as much hate. the reaction people give to nazis is wildly different from what they do to communists. communists are not publicly shamed as much as nazis. it's not as taboo as nazism.

no, nazis are not really a big threat because everyone already knows what a nazi is, what they look like, what they believe, and that they are evil. Communists are just as evil as nazis, but people are not equally aware of their evil. People are rightly worried about nazism becomming more popular, but they don't seem to care as much about how communism and similar ideas have been getting more popular for a long time now, just look at universities. Communism, as history shows, is much more sneaky in gaining power. of course they are not anywhere near taking power, but there is for example an obvious leftist bias in education and media. not communist per se, but marxist. perhaps this is more of a problem in europe though... it is not unusual to have a plurality or even majority of e.g. journalists sympathesis with the (former) communist party. maybe it was more of a problem a few decades ago, but point is, marxist infiltration is a real problem.

[Elfdude]

Indeed. in over 10 years in the 'pit, with all the terrorist and other events that have place over that period, this seems to be the only event where members have justified or glorified a terrorist murder. Should be ashamed of themselves.

Honestly, since 2001 there was never any level of conservative sentiment in this forum anywhere near as large as there is today.

Now we have people who believe the civil war was about states right. That affirmative action is about white suppression. That law is the same as morality. That BLM is a hate group and that Antifa (antifascist) is a pejorative not something to be proud of. We have people who question climate science. People who assert that Putin and Russia are bastions of human rights and claim that Academia's principles of tolerance and inclusion are actually principles of exclusion and discrimination.

The dizzying nature of this forum's personality shifts are surprising. I would say it represents a loss of quality of debate. Gone are the posters who would dissect every piece of rhetoric to shreds, now we have posters who struggle to post more than a sentence which consists of little more than an eloquent "No you".

[caratacus]

Oh boy, here come the conspiracies. It is amazing the lengths people will go through to defend literally Nazis. How were the events "cooked up" exactly? Someone was killed by a car driven by a (very likely) Nazi sympathizer, what part of that is made up to discredit Trump? Just because Trump fumbled his response we should belittle the victims? This is why much of the mainstream is worried; they are worried about people who are bending over backwards to defend the Nazis and the KKK all because they see it as another political battleground. This thread had to shut down twice so mods could delete comments COMMENDING the guy who is up for murder.

Conflict was facilitated, there is no way to see this differently. The organiser of the white supremacists in Charlotteville was an ex Obama supporter for Christ's sake, surely this should cause some questions, if not the total lack of effort in keeping the two sides apart by the police, both of which were threatening each other. Why all the fuss now about Confederate statues that have been standing for decades and why there removal is being treated in the least sensitive and urgent manner?

I was considering getting Mafia III the other day but changed my mind after reviews. I think it is strange that kids can play a game with the KKK in and yet nobody bats so much as an eyelid and yet everybody is suddenly incensed at statues that nobody stops to even look at.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Prodromos]

Southerners voted to remove said statue in charlottesville, it was out of state white supremacists who freaked out.

Methinks you thought this logic would prove your point when in actuality it supports the removal of the statue and calls into question the unite the right rally itself.

Hmmm.

As for your dimestore fallacious logic of who can comment on what things and why, I'm sorry but artificial borders created around political governance have very little (aka: nothing) to do with one's right to comment on a subject.

Well technically they were probably immigrants from non-Southern states, but sure, they have a legal right to do it, just as the state governments have a right to pass legislation preventing cities from doing it. Let's hope more such laws are passed.

N.C. lawmakers OK bill that may protect confederate monuments

[NosPortatArma]

Well technically they were probably immigrants from non-Southern states, but sure, they have a legal right to do it, just as the state governments have a right to pass legislation preventing cities from doing it. Let's hope more such laws are passed.

N.C. lawmakers OK bill that may protect confederate monuments

I just want this to be done legally, wheter they are removed or not. Personally I do not see how it makes sense to glorify (because that's what you do with a statue in public space) people who were traitors and stood for slavery. Just like with nazi germany, not ever soldier was a nazi and most probably just fought for their country like any soldier does, but that does not mean there should be statues glorifying nazi commanders, the nazi state, or nazi ideas. Exact same logic goes for the CSA. The CSA, as a state or the ideas it stood for, does not deserve to be glorified at all, neither with statues or flags, in public spaces. The soldiers should be remembered, but at cemetaries. Statues and flags are fine to be flown at CSA cemetaries and museums.

[Mithradates]

But there are no commies in congress, so I am confused as to why people think the Communists are taking over. How would they possibly be doing that without a government presence?

Look around in the universities, those kids are the next generation congressmen.

[caratacus]

Well technically they were probably immigrants from non-Southern states, but sure, they have a legal right to do it, just as the state governments have a right to pass legislation preventing cities from doing it. Let's hope more such laws are passed.

N.C. lawmakers OK bill that may protect confederate monuments

North Carolina House on Monday gave tentative approval to a controversial bill to protect historical monuments and memorials.

The House voted mostly along party lines, 70-37, in favor of the bill prohibiting the removal of "objects of remembrance" from public property.

Yes, and we all know why the Democrats would want to politicize this issue.

[Copperknickers II]

Honestly, since 2001 there was never any level of conservative sentiment in this forum anywhere near as large as there is today.

Now we have people who believe the civil war was about states rights. That affirmative action is about white suppression.

Affirmative action is intended to knock white people off their perch as the 'dominant' race in terms of representation in various positions of privelege (pay, management level roles, politics, higher education, etc etc). The problem with it is that the white people who occupy these positions are a specific subset of middle and upper class white people, and so working class white people who suffer many of the same problems as working class black people might be unfairly affected by it.

That BLM is a hate group

BLM did not originate as a hate group and most of its members are not extremists, but it has to be admitted there is a minority of BLM affiliated subgroups who very much can be classified as hate groups.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

and that Antifa (antifascist) is a pejorative not something to be proud of.

Antifa as a term originates from the early years of Nazi Germany, when the Antifaschistiche Aktion group (called Antifa for short) was founded by the KPD. They fought in pitched street battles with the SA and other far right groups. The original Antifa were mostly card carrying Communists and their goal was to destroy the SPD hold on power, i.e. the only thing that was stopping the Nazis from coming to power. It was in large measure their fault that Hitler won, because they so divided the Left and engaged in such wanton violence that ordinary Germans began to fear the Communists more than they did the Nazis. The word 'Antifa' became a pejorative because the Antifa were infamous for decrying even social democrats as 'Nazi sympathisers' and 'Fascists', they just had no willingness to engage with their opponents in civil terms and build bridges. Sound familiar?

Neither did the Nazis, of course: it was a polarisation of society with extremes at both ends, and arguably the Nazis were much worse (although goodness knows what atrocities the Communists would have committed if they had seized Germany, there would still have been a world war for sure and the West probably wouldn't have won it since Germany and Russia would have been on the same side and Einstein would probably never have fled to the USA so the US might have been too late to the nuke party).

Anyway, the point being Antifa has for a long time been a pejorative and for good reason. The German Antifa did sterling work in rooting out Nazis after the war finished but they were very little help in stopping the Nazis precisely because of their violent methods. Which is what makes all of this ridiculous social media reaction so ironic: "Hur durr, if more people had punched Nazis in the 1930s then Hitler wouldn't have come to power, derp." There was no shortage of people doing exactly that and it did not help one bit, just got a lot of people arrested who could have more effectively opposed the Nazis by picking their battles and keeping calm and maintaining the moral high ground.

[NosPortatArma]

Affirmative action is intended to knock white people off their perch as the 'dominant' race in terms of representation in various positions of privelege (pay, management level roles, politics, higher education, etc etc). The problem with it is that the white people who occupy these positions are a specific subset of middle and upper class white people, and so working class white people who suffer many of the same problems as working class black people might be unfairly affected by it.

indeed, and furthermore the minorities who are given these spots are often middle or upper class themselves: hardly the people who need help. People could be living on the same street in the same upper class neighborhood, but they'd count for "diversity" just because they have different skin colour. And AA doesn't even help people anyways, insofar as it mismatches people by sending them to places that they are not qualified for, thus setting them up to fail. The white working class is furstrated, and it's not hard to see why. Everywhere they get told they have privilege and that they have to "give space" for minorities, but they probably don't feel they have any privilege or much space to give while they are losing their jobs in the rust belt. AA is in my view a complete waste of time, doesn't help anyone, only serves to increase racial tension. The line between helping minorities and damaging whites is very very thin, especially in rethoric. I don't think anyone can deny that there's outright anti white rethoric comming from some groups these days, and of course there's gonna be a backlash, and the spiral goes deeper... You can't heal race problems by treating people by race.. that way it will never go away, never heal.

[Acco]

Why don't Americans actually ask themselves why there is suddenly a movement to remove Confederate statues

This isn't a new and sudden phenomenon. The movement to remove these statues started in 2015, after a racist terrorist shot up a black church in Charleston, SC (wonderful city, by the way, highly recommend visiting it!). The terrorist attack in Charlottesville is adding further fuel to the fire. It is worth adding that, in the aftermath of that 2015 attack, Trump agreed that the Confederate battle flag should be removed from S.Carolina's statehouse and put into a museum instead, quite interesting considering his current stance on the statues.

[Prodromos]

I just want this to be done legally, wheter they are removed or not. Personally I do not see how it makes sense to glorify (because that's what you do with a statue in public space) people who were traitors and stood for slavery. Just like with nazi germany, not ever soldier was a nazi and most probably just fought for their country like any soldier does, but that does not mean there should be statues glorifying nazi commanders, the nazi state, or nazi ideas. Exact same logic goes for the CSA. The CSA, as a state or the ideas it stood for, does not deserve to be glorified at all, neither with statues or flags, in public spaces. The soldiers should be remembered, but at cemetaries. Statues and flags are fine to be flown at CSA cemetaries and museums.

They were perfectly American not traitors. That is, the people and soldiers, which these monuments honor. Few monuments endorse slavery or any immorality.

Should we demolish monuments to British veterans of WW2? After all they were obeying a government that imprisoned gays. And what about Bill Clinton statues? He's a rapist isn't he? And Washington owned slaves. And let's not get started on the Greeks and Romans. Clearly we must blow up the Colosseum, that house of slavery and death.

The goal of this Confederate kerfuffle isn't patriotism or anti-racism. It is to provoke conservatives and create yet another wedge issue to divide Americans. There is nothing to be gained by removing the monuments. They'll just create another wedge issue then. No thanks! Anyone who is offended by monuments for Civil War veterans, is perfectly free to avoid visiting the area containing them.

[IronBrig4]

I was considering getting Mafia III the other day but changed my mind after reviews. I think it is strange that kids can play a game with the KKK in and yet nobody bats so much as an eyelid and yet everybody is suddenly incensed at statues that nobody stops to even look at.

I'm pretty sure you get to kill lots of Klansmen in Mafia III. And there are many games where you shoot Nazis and pile them up like cordwood. Shooting Klansmen and Nazis is an American tradition that most people can get behind.



Edit: And I can't believe I have to clarify this, but I'm talking about shooting Nazis in video games, on TV, and in movies.