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Thread: {DIK} Character's movementpoints on the strat map - Discussion

  1. #1
    Aneirin's Avatar of flowing verse
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    Icon4 {DIK} Character's movementpoints on the strat map - Discussion

    Dear fellows,

    as we are progressing with the development we have come across another issue bothering the TIW-Players.
    The character's range on the strat map. It has been argued that the current amount of movementpoints is not sufficient.
    We absolutely agree on this. So the question we are facing is to what amount should the movementpoints be increased.
    Since we also have to keep in mind the effects on the AI, as well as, the gameplay en bloc. Another point we do need to keep in mind for
    our 'calculations', our game has four turns per year, which means one turn equals four months in time.

    Here are some examples to start with:

    Armies:
    These calculations are based on 10 km a day.
    Without cannons.
    Milano <-> Genoa -> 1 turn
    Milano <-> Venice -> 2 turns
    Milano <-> Roma -> 4 turns

    Ambassadors:
    These calculations are based on 20 km a day.
    Milano <-> Genoa -> 1 turn
    Milano <-> Venice -> 1 turns
    Milano <-> Roma -> 2 turns

    You are more than welcome to comment and share your thoughts on this matter!

    Best regards,
    Aneirin
    Proud son of Aikanár and brother of Iskar

  2. #2

    Default Re: {DIK} Character's movementpoints on the strat map - Discussion

    I'm a bit of a historian myself, and in this period in history (one of my favorites, I might add), I discovered that an army could actually march 20-30 km a day. Perhaps, reducing the amount of turns from Milano to Rome by half would be the way to go.

    I would send you my sources, but this info is from a book in Spanish, so I'm not sure if you read this language. But, feel free to ask anyways.

    Sent from my 6039A using Tapatalk

  3. #3
    Mausolos of Caria's Avatar Royal Satrap
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    Default Re: {DIK} Character's movementpoints on the strat map - Discussion

    I am only a historian for ancient history, but 20-40 kms a day are the normal amount for all pre-modern armies I think, depending on the exact equipment and everything. Since you want to increase the range on the map that would help, but on the other hand I think we should also be careful to not devalue the strategic perspective on the campaign. To put it short: In reality, an army would also be able to attack more than once every three months And if the AI could move an army from Rome to Milan in a single turn that would be massively annoying as you would be completely unable to prepare your defence. Thus, as always, we must find a balance.
    "Pompeius, after having finished the war against Mithridates, when he went to call at the house of Poseidonios, the famous teacher of philosophy, forbade the lictor to knock at the door, as was the usual custom, and he, to whom both the eastern and the western world had yielded submission, ordered the fasces to be lowered before the door of science."

    Pliny the Elder, Naturalis Historia, 7, 112

  4. #4

    Default Re: {DIK} Character's movementpoints on the strat map - Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Mausolos of Caria View Post
    I am only a historian for ancient history, but 20-40 kms a day are the normal amount for all pre-modern armies I think, depending on the exact equipment and everything. Since you want to increase the range on the map that would help, but on the other hand I think we should also be careful to not devalue the strategic perspective on the campaign. To put it short: In reality, an army would also be able to attack more than once every three months And if the AI could move an army from Rome to Milan in a single turn that would be massively annoying as you would be completely unable to prepare your defence. Thus, as always, we must find a balance.
    Had not thought about that. It would actually be most unfortunate to be attacked so quickly without the opportunity to prepare one's defences.
    What would you propose instead?

    Sent from my 6039A using Tapatalk

  5. #5
    Aneirin's Avatar of flowing verse
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    Default Re: {DIK} Character's movementpoints on the strat map - Discussion

    20-40 kilometres? Is that not a bit too fast, taking the baggage train and all the camp followers into account?
    I agree, there need to be found a balance between realistic movement and gameplay balance.
    Proud son of Aikanár and brother of Iskar

  6. #6
    Mausolos of Caria's Avatar Royal Satrap
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    Default Re: {DIK} Character's movementpoints on the strat map - Discussion

    As for the marching speed: As I said, ancient history is my specialty, so I will take the Roman army as an example. A legion was expected to be able to cover about 30 kms a day, and every soldier would carry his own equipment, about 25 kg. Of course this would be less in more mountainous terrain, adverse weather or enemy country, where more scouting was needed (apart from plundering and all that stuff). Caesar would often force march his legions about 40 kms a day through Gaul or Italy.
    I would say similar lengths for our period are realistic, since the basic conditions did not change. The waggons might have been easier to move along with some other minor technological improvements, and a pikeman or a musketeer does not have the heavy armarment of a Roman legionary. On the other hand, the Italian sources might be biased, but I don't think we can totally dismiss the image they draw of the French and Habsburg armies, which shows us armies that are nowhere near the discipline of a professional Roman legion. All in all, that sould balance and thus an average of 30kms seems realistic to me.
    What does that mean in the game? That is the big question though, and I do not think I can decide this for you, Aneirin. I would try to find a middle ground between the current state in game and an estimation of 20- 40, or 20-30 kms a day for an army.
    "Pompeius, after having finished the war against Mithridates, when he went to call at the house of Poseidonios, the famous teacher of philosophy, forbade the lictor to knock at the door, as was the usual custom, and he, to whom both the eastern and the western world had yielded submission, ordered the fasces to be lowered before the door of science."

    Pliny the Elder, Naturalis Historia, 7, 112

  7. #7
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: {DIK} Character's movementpoints on the strat map - Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Aneirin View Post
    The character's range on the strat map. It has been argued that the current amount of movementpoints is not sufficient.
    We absolutely agree on this. So the question we are facing is to what amount should the movementpoints be increased.
    Since we also have to keep in mind the effects on the AI, as well as, the gameplay en bloc. Another point we do need to keep in mind for
    our 'calculations', our game has four turns per year, which means one turn equals four months in time.

    Here are some examples to start with:

    Armies:
    These calculations are based on 10 km a day.
    Ambassadors:
    These calculations are based on 20 km a day.
    You are more than welcome to comment and share your thoughts on this matter!
    Hi Aneirin,
    Concerning gameplay: afaik the AI works the best if its movement rate it allows it to reach from one settlement to another in one turn - but not more (it gets more stupid, as usual in such situations).
    Concerning historicity: I think your count for the armies is all right. Even if the armies could make an effort and go over 20 km in one day, they would have take a rest then. I think 10 km average for 3 months is theoretically possible during a campaign.
    This is a relevant entry from the Oxford Encyclopedia of Medieval Warefare and Military Technology:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    cheers
    JoC
    If you want to play a historical mod in the medieval setting the best are IMO:
    the Stainless Steel Historical Improvement Project,
    or the Broken Crescent + Buff and Shine.
    .................................................................................................................................................................................
    Reviews of the mods (all made in 2018): SSHIP, Wrath of the Norsemen, Broken Crescent.
    Pros and cons of having merchants in an M2TW mod. Arguments against the forts in M2TW.
    Home rules for playing a game without exploiting the M2TW engine deficiencies.
    Thrones of Britannia: review, opinion on the battles, ideas for modding. No good mod yet, alas!
    Dominant strategy in Rome 2 TW and Attila TW: “Sniping groups of armies”. Still there, alas!
    .................................................................................................................................................................................
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  8. #8
    Aneirin's Avatar of flowing verse
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    Default Re: {DIK} Character's movementpoints on the strat map - Discussion

    All right, many thank's for your thoughts on this matter.
    I'll try several things and see what happen
    Proud son of Aikanár and brother of Iskar

  9. #9

    Default Re: {DIK} Character's movementpoints on the strat map - Discussion

    10 km per day for an army is more than enough. An army theoretically could march up to 40km a day (that's a lot, not a record maybe but really a huge distance to cover on a daily basis) but in reality soldiers do not only march. They train, they built camps, they collect food, they occupy and guard passes and towns along the way, they build bridges and roads, the generals take their time to make plans, they wait for new recruits, money and supplies, etc. Few armies in history I imagine marched 20-30 km a day for more than a few days and I doubt that any exceptions come from the Italian Wars. What Julius Caesar's army did, or Napoleon's or Alexander's were unusual feats.

    On the other hand, I have no issue with surprise AI attacks. They might spice up the game. The opposite is actually my worry, a blitz by the human player deep into undefended AI territory.

    Edit: 20 km for diplomats and princesses sounds also right.
    Last edited by Geoffrey of Villehardouin; October 10, 2017 at 03:29 PM.

  10. #10
    Aneirin's Avatar of flowing verse
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    Default Re: {DIK} Character's movementpoints on the strat map - Discussion

    I just found this old topic and saw that there has been nothing implemented / adjusted in the mod yet.
    Anyhow, I'll add that topic on my list
    Proud son of Aikanár and brother of Iskar

  11. #11
    Aneirin's Avatar of flowing verse
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    Default Re: {DIK} Character's movementpoints on the strat map - Discussion

    Based on Gig's suggestion here:
    Quote Originally Posted by Gigantus View Post
    In my experience going beyond 120-130 points extends processing noticeably. It also takes a lot longer to generate a new map - a problem I first came across in PDeR.
    I decided to increased every value by 65 points. It is not as much as I initially thought appropriate, though I think it is a reasonable tradeoff.
    I'll surely run some tests with these settings, but the major test will be made with our play testers.

    Best regards,
    Aneirin
    Proud son of Aikanár and brother of Iskar

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