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Thread: XCAI: Campaign AI feedback thread

  1. #21

    Default Re: XAI Campaign Feedback thread

    Hi xeryx, thanks for you work. I'm trying the mod right now, seems great so far, specially the BAI and CAI.

    Some questions though, is it normal to have so much income per turn? I'm making 3k+ which just one settlement as the Jutes, this coupled with the expanded recruitment slots means that I can just spit units everywhere and bat no eye to the management of my settlements.

    Do you plan to overhaul the buildings?

    Also i'm using your units tables, is it compatible with any units modpack, like AUM?

  2. #22
    xeryx's Avatar Follow the White Rabbit
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    Default Re: XAI Campaign Feedback thread

    Yep, you will need it and so does the AI, as your armies will cost you a lot. You need to plan on defending your settlements as the AI can be pretty aggressive, so watch your back against opportunistic and aggressive personalities. Seek out defensive neighbors and they will help defend you and you should do the same.

    Remember to change your stances!! and garrison your troops when not fighting as they will save you money. Be warned, save up some money before going sieging, as it will cost you more money to do so.

    Make sure to report back good or bad or whatever!!
    Last edited by xeryx; August 21, 2017 at 08:10 PM.
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  3. #23
    xeryx's Avatar Follow the White Rabbit
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    Default Re: XAI Campaign Feedback thread

    I need some input! about VASSALS and CLIENT STATES. I do not want them to be annoying and overpowered, so I want them to happen pretty rarely.

    Can you guys give me some ideas?
    Last edited by xeryx; August 22, 2017 at 08:24 PM.
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  4. #24
    AnthoniusII's Avatar Μέγαc Δομέστικοc
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    Default Re: XAI Campaign Feedback thread

    Quote Originally Posted by xeryx View Post
    I need some input! about VASSALS and CLIENT STATES. I do not want them to be annoying and overpowered, so I want them to happen pretty rarely.

    Can you guys give me some ideas?
    Historicaly depends of the vassal state.
    A state becomes a vassal afater a bloody war. Then under the tollerance of his master state, grows in power and attacks in common enemies of its master or atleast states that its master has no interest (neutral).
    When it becomes strong enough it declairs its freedom from its master either by diplomacy (offer money/or/and land to brake the vassalty peacefully) or by force if it things its strong enough to counter its master power.
    The same comes to client states.
    Both are complicated politicaly issues.
    The AI that controls them must check the power (total and area) of the master. If the master state starts loosing battles and lands means that its weak and they will rebel or CHANGE MASTER.
    Both cases MUST be able to be bribed by money / land or by marriage.
    The last one is a feature forgoten since MTW 1. When a ruler dies his daughter demands her part of the country as her dowry. If the new ruler denies a war must start!
    Do not think that this was only a middle ages matter.
    TGC in order to continue its development seak one or more desicated scripters to put our campaign scripts mess to an order plus to create new events and create the finall missing factions recruitment system. In return TGC will give permision to those that will help to use its material stepe by step. The result will be a fully released TGC plus many mods that will benefit TGC's material.
    Despite the mod is dead does not mean that anyone can use its material
    read this to avoid misunderstandings.

    IWTE tool master and world txt one like this, needed inorder to release TGC 1.0 official to help TWC to survive.
    Adding MARKA HORSES in your mod and create new varietions of them. Tutorial RESTORED.


  5. #25
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: XAI Campaign Feedback thread

    Quote Originally Posted by AnthoniusII View Post
    Both cases MUST be able to be bribed by money / land or by marriage.
    The last one is a feature forgoten since MTW 1. When a ruler dies his daughter demands her part of the country as her dowry. If the new ruler denies a war must start!
    I think in the Hispania in the Middle Ages mod to M2TW this feautre was implemented by Miguel_80

    Besides, while modding vassals in the M2TW it's important to limit the max money possessed by an AI faction since it might break the balance: you vassalize somebody and you get huge income.
    (I mention this because it might also be pertinent in the ATW).

    BTW, Anthonius - I'm just playing Deus lo Vult as ERE - the CBUR is implemented also here. You've done a marvellous job there, making players happy for years! Thanks!
    Last edited by Jurand of Cracow; August 23, 2017 at 04:12 AM.
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  6. #26
    xeryx's Avatar Follow the White Rabbit
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    Default Re: XAI Campaign Feedback thread

    This is what I am thinking.

    Vassals..only happen when you get conquered and as a last stand measure.

    Client states, only occur when reach best friends status. All other situations will be very hard to get.
    since I am limited in the parameters, and I do not know what else the AI is looking at for these decisions, I think it best to keep them very limited. I can definitey change the "odds" of these diplomacy actions happening as well.

    This will work because they are 2 seperate entities in the diplomacy.

    Now the other question is, what limitations should I impose for factions?
    Last edited by xeryx; August 23, 2017 at 04:30 AM.
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  7. #27

    Default Re: XAI Campaign Feedback thread

    Welcome back xeryx! I will try the mod tonight.
    Intel 4690k GTX 760 8GB Asrock Fatality Z97

  8. #28
    AnthoniusII's Avatar Μέγαc Δομέστικοc
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    Default Re: XAI Campaign Feedback thread

    deleted.
    TGC in order to continue its development seak one or more desicated scripters to put our campaign scripts mess to an order plus to create new events and create the finall missing factions recruitment system. In return TGC will give permision to those that will help to use its material stepe by step. The result will be a fully released TGC plus many mods that will benefit TGC's material.
    Despite the mod is dead does not mean that anyone can use its material
    read this to avoid misunderstandings.

    IWTE tool master and world txt one like this, needed inorder to release TGC 1.0 official to help TWC to survive.
    Adding MARKA HORSES in your mod and create new varietions of them. Tutorial RESTORED.


  9. #29

    Default Re: XAI Campaign Feedback thread

    Hi xeryx, some feedback from my campaign this time with the Saxons. I did liberate a settlement in Britain and in the next turn they declared war on me, is it normal???

    Also I think that the economy is still broken, I can recruit mercenary onagers for only 300g and only pay 200g. One calvary unit is more expensive to maintain and recruit than they.

  10. #30
    xeryx's Avatar Follow the White Rabbit
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    Default Re: XAI Campaign Feedback thread

    Can you be more specific, PrimoTW? I can't fix something if I don't know exactly where to look.

    I do need to know what was Britannia, exact personality? If they were hateful..then yes they were supposed to be like that. There is a bonus for liberation, but there is no more instant be your best friend bonuses. If you can take a steam screenshot using F12 in the diplomacy screen. I use Pinterest to host any important screen shots. Or you can use the screen shots to describe them better here.

    I have no idea what you mean by a broken economy? The Units module included so far only changes Maintenance costs and morale of units, and is very much a work in progress. They are 50% of the unit cost. I will do more work on that module for balance in the future. For now, we are primarily testing Diplomacy and making sure that it works properly.

    The variable stances with change the cost of units maintenance depending on which stance they are in. The AI is also using this intelligently, which is a relief!! So camp your troops and only use double time as a last resort because it increases costs. You can see the costs below the ARMY name in the ARMY screen (button located in lower left corner, next to general button)

    Thanks for the feedback. Remember there are lots of variables I have to account for in the campaign, so the more details and even screen shots really help. Please also make sure if you are going to do test reporting, that you do not use other mods except approved ones on my list (graphics or reskin mods are fine). That way we can get a good baseline for future adjustments. I do not want a bunch of other mods possibly throwing off the results.
    Last edited by xeryx; August 27, 2017 at 06:58 AM.
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  11. #31
    Morfans's Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: XAI Campaign Feedback thread

    Modest proposal on rebel army composition.

    Vanilla game in inconsistent in that rebel armies are (much) more advanced than their original faction.

    This aspect is controlled by two coefficients in the CAI variables table, namely:


    • CAI_VARIABLE_REBEL_QUALITY_MULTIPLIER
    • CAI_VARIABLE_REBEL_QUALITY_OFFSET


    I see in xcai, they are unchanged.

    I suggest to set "multiplier" to 0.05 or less (I use 0.01) and "offset" to 0.25 or less (I have 0.1)

    Also I would remove all artillery - personally, I find it annoying that rebels have an onager unit every 2-3 heavy infantry cohorts.

  12. #32
    AnthoniusII's Avatar Μέγαc Δομέστικοc
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    Default Re: XAI Campaign Feedback thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Morfans View Post
    Modest proposal on rebel army composition.

    Vanilla game in inconsistent in that rebel armies are (much) more advanced than their original faction.

    This aspect is controlled by two coefficients in the CAI variables table, namely:


    • CAI_VARIABLE_REBEL_QUALITY_MULTIPLIER
    • CAI_VARIABLE_REBEL_QUALITY_OFFSET


    I see in xcai, they are unchanged.

    I suggest to set "multiplier" to 0.05 or less (I use 0.01) and "offset" to 0.25 or less (I have 0.1)

    Also I would remove all artillery - personally, I find it annoying that rebels have an onager unit every 2-3 heavy infantry cohorts.
    Army composition is a sick matter in Attila.
    That was made on purpose because CA developers could not create realy smart CAI.
    So...every AI controled army MUST have artilery units because they are too stupid to use siege equipment like armies do in RTW-1 or M2TW.
    If CAI was in right order then we could see in RTW2 and Attila AI controled armies ussing ladders of THEIR OWN, siege towers of THEIR OWN like in RTW-1 , attack city walls from diferent directions like in RTW-1 etc.
    Instead CAI is such stupid that a 2nd AI controled army waits to use the 1st AI controled army's siege equipment (rams,ladders,towers).
    That is why AI uses artilery equipment.
    That is WHY walls cruble and fall by THEIR OWN to allow AI controled armies to find ways to enter a fortified city.
    That is WHY CA developers instead of fixing CAI since Rome 2 they created un-fortified settlements!
    CA/SEGA sold us two pieces of crap and most of us were happy with them because "soldiers" looked better than those 12 years ago!
    IF Xeryx find the way CAI must:
    Use properly simple siege equipment than always artilery one.
    IF that will be accomplished then Rebel armies but MOST of all Steppe Factions must have NO ARTILERY units at all!
    The 1st steppe people that apeared with artilery units were Avars in 6th century!
    If 2 or more AI armies besiege a settlement must be able to construct its own siege equipment like rams /ladders/towers.
    If AI loses a ram by fire must be able to use another like in M2TW !
    Last edited by AnthoniusII; August 27, 2017 at 06:02 AM.
    TGC in order to continue its development seak one or more desicated scripters to put our campaign scripts mess to an order plus to create new events and create the finall missing factions recruitment system. In return TGC will give permision to those that will help to use its material stepe by step. The result will be a fully released TGC plus many mods that will benefit TGC's material.
    Despite the mod is dead does not mean that anyone can use its material
    read this to avoid misunderstandings.

    IWTE tool master and world txt one like this, needed inorder to release TGC 1.0 official to help TWC to survive.
    Adding MARKA HORSES in your mod and create new varietions of them. Tutorial RESTORED.


  13. #33
    xeryx's Avatar Follow the White Rabbit
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    Default Re: XAI Campaign Feedback thread

    IF that will be accomplished then Rebel armies but MOST of all Steppe Factions must have NO ARTILERY units at all!
    The 1st steppe people that apeared with artilery units were Avars in 6th century!
    If 2 or more AI armies besiege a settlement must be able to construct its own siege equipment like rams /ladders/towers.
    If AI loses a ram by fire must be able to use another like in M2TW !
    Well if I could ever get the AI to actually catch me off guard I will let a siege happen. I have a feeling though that XAI has fixed the siege issues


    Antonius, please tone down the negativity as I want my forum to always remain in a positive tone. Thank you.

    @ Morfans, Thank you for the info as I do agree rebels should not be as well equipped. However the real question that needs to be asked is "Why is the AI rebelling?" It is most likely food shortages leading to unhappiness.

    Which brings me to this - Why did CA implement so many negative effects in the game? The answer is simple to "Simulate Difficulty" for the player, because the AI is not working like it should be. However, these systems dramatically hurt the AI in the process. That is why they had to implement so many bonuses for the AI in the difficulty settings.

    Now to be fair, the AI will never be as great as we would all like it too.

    However!! I want to let you know we are getting there and making great strides in improving it!!
    My current game is really exciting for a change, and XDAI diplomacy is what is responsible for the dramatic change.
    I am not sitting here and tooting my horn either, This 20 turns has been the BEST I have had in a TW game in a very long time. I would love to tell you about it but I am dead tired right now as it is 6am in the morning. Because I have been up for the past 4 hours playing!!
    Last edited by xeryx; September 06, 2017 at 07:18 PM.
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  14. #34

    Default Re: XAI Campaign Feedback thread

    Chnodomar's Raiders are 260 upkeep (in the tooltip, haven't build themin the campaign).

  15. #35
    Morfans's Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: XAI Campaign Feedback thread

    Quote Originally Posted by xeryx View Post
    Thank you for the info as I do agree rebels should not be as well equipped.
    Note that I was mainly thinking of elite units - like poor Arcadius' ill-assorted limitanei facing contarii and palatina rebels, just 3-4 turns from start.

    Quote Originally Posted by xeryx View Post
    Why did CA implement so many negative effects in the game? The answer is simple to "Simulate Difficulty" for the player, because the AI is not working like it should be.
    Or, symmetrically, CA targeted the game to occasional players, who long to play as the eponymous scourge of god, for the fun of cheaply ravaging the corrupt (and hopefully weak) Roman civilization.

    Quote Originally Posted by xeryx View Post
    However!! I want to let you know we are getting there and making great strides in improving it!!
    My current game is really exciting for a change, and XDAI diplomacy is what is responsible for the dramatic change.
    I am not sitting here and tooting my horn either, This 20 turns has been the BEST I have had in a TW game in a very long time. I would love to tell you about it but I am dead tired right now as it is 6am in the morning. Because I have been up for the past 4 hours playing!!
    Yesss! And that's where we need you !

  16. #36
    xeryx's Avatar Follow the White Rabbit
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    Default Re: XAI Campaign Feedback thread

    Chnodomar's Raiders are 260 upkeep (in the tooltip, haven't build themin the campaign).
    What faction? More info please, I haven't played all factions in this game. Please post unit issues to the Unit thread, so I can keep track of them easier.

    Or, symmetrically, CA targeted the game to occasional players, who long to play as the eponymous scourge of god, for the fun of cheaply ravaging the corrupt (and hopefully weak) Roman civilization.
    That is pretty funny.

    I am sure you guys have played this game a lot more than I have. I just started this summer from a humble bundle.
    Here is the idea I am throwing around and maybe you guys can tell me what seems to work the best in the game. There are already mods that do this, and I will probably do some testing later on them.

    Squalor, food and climate changes.

    It seems to me that these systems hurt the AI more than it helps it. It also seems to me that they are a bit drastic in their effects. Especially, climate change and squalor. I want to know what you guys think, constructively, and how we can make them in to applicable systems that works fairly, without crippling the AI.

    I am thinking that the climate change should only go down 1 level instead of 2. I believe it has trigger turns correct? if so, it should happen later in the game.

    Food consumption from buildings is kind of ridiculous. I guess they attached it to them to simulate what higher populations would eat, because buildings are based on pop growth? Is there a better way to simulate this?
    Last edited by xeryx; August 27, 2017 at 07:12 PM.
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  17. #37
    xeryx's Avatar Follow the White Rabbit
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    Default Re: XCAI: Campaign AI feedback thread

    I guess I never realized this, but heroes cannot be attached to Naval units!! only on an escorted army.That is lame..so I think I will increase the level of experience gained for naval units, with my new system. in the Dynamic stances to make up for this because I want experienced units!!

    I think I will give experience for Raiding, and fast voyage as well. Then up the patrol and docked experience per turn because I want Naval units relevant
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  18. #38
    AnthoniusII's Avatar Μέγαc Δομέστικοc
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    Default Re: XAI Campaign Feedback thread

    Quote Originally Posted by xeryx View Post
    Squalor, food and climate changes.

    It seems to me that these systems hurt the AI more than it helps it. It also seems to me that they are a bit drastic in their effects. Especially, climate change and squalor. I want to know what you guys think, constructively, and how we can make them in to applicable systems that works fairly, without crippling the AI.

    I am thinking that the climate change should only go down 1 level instead of 2. I believe it has trigger turns correct? if so, it should happen later in the game.

    Food consumption from buildings is kind of ridiculous. I guess they attached it to them to simulate what higher populations would eat, because buildings are based on pop growth? Is there a better way to simulate this?
    No those features do not affect AI too much. They might have been designed to affect player's armies.
    About food and other fanctions.
    Vanilla game has some bizzare points.
    The populalation growth is not linked to the bothe strat_map and battle map settlements.
    The settlements grouth has two features.
    Population: Allows to unlock building slots (strangely limmited to 6 slots only).
    Research : Allows to build bigger settlements as battle models ONLY.
    So...in a paradox way you may have a huge city regarding population but when you will be besiege you will be infront of a village!
    There is food consumption even to buildings that they would never have that.
    Also there is lack of food storage builidings or an option to trade/buy food for gold or other resources.
    Climate change must recieve a limitation. Its ridiculus that an army that marches to Via Egnatia (Thessaloniki-Constantinople) in winter time has casualties from food or cold!
    So factions must have a "domestic" climate affect that would be limmited!
    An other strange thing.
    Farms that produce food have negative Squalor that affects civil unrest. But in those times food was the primary sourceof happyness!
    How a population that feels happy that is not hungry has negative civil order?

    I am pointing vanilla issues that may be needed to invastigated.
    TGC in order to continue its development seak one or more desicated scripters to put our campaign scripts mess to an order plus to create new events and create the finall missing factions recruitment system. In return TGC will give permision to those that will help to use its material stepe by step. The result will be a fully released TGC plus many mods that will benefit TGC's material.
    Despite the mod is dead does not mean that anyone can use its material
    read this to avoid misunderstandings.

    IWTE tool master and world txt one like this, needed inorder to release TGC 1.0 official to help TWC to survive.
    Adding MARKA HORSES in your mod and create new varietions of them. Tutorial RESTORED.


  19. #39

    Default Re: XCAI: Campaign AI feedback thread

    hey xeryx,i was tracking the mod a while as i didn't have time to play the last couple of weeks,i see a lot of dedication so well done,now i m about to start a new campaign and i have a couple of questions will be a problem for future updates to the save game because i want to start a campaign both for the feedback and for a lasting campaign and if this offers any help i think to start as the langobards or if you want to offer any other barbaric faction to test tell me,and for last there are some mods that i ll be using is the avetis reskins and maybe dramabellis unit mods i guess these are compatible with the mod of yours,but i don't know if some traits mods will be compatible or the anciliaries from prometheus i think,that's all and if you can tell me any other mod to improve gameplay you can tell me to start with.

  20. #40
    xeryx's Avatar Follow the White Rabbit
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    Default Re: XCAI: Campaign AI feedback thread

    There should be no problems with save games, but I make no guarantee's The core changes are done for now, most of the stuff I will be changing in the near future is save game compatible.

    You can uses any skins, Sebedees are really good. Any mod that adds units is fine and you can use traits and ancillary mods.

    I have a list in the Welcome XAI thread, those are mods I use for core improvements to the game and I know they are 100% compatible with my mod because I have checked them.

    Really glad you can give it a try and give feedback.

    If you have a compatibility issue let me know, as most modders are unresponsive and have moved on.
    Last edited by xeryx; August 30, 2017 at 11:02 AM.
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