Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 39

Thread: Garrisoning settlements in the SSHIP - ideas

Hybrid View

Previous Post Previous Post   Next Post Next Post
  1. #1
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Cracovia
    Posts
    7,483

    Icon3 Garrisoning settlements in the SSHIP - ideas

    This thread should deal with the issue of garrisons and would provide some thoughts for modding the buildings (to give or not to give free upkeep), the units (to give or not to give attributes „free_upkeep” and „is_peasant”), the prices of units (e.g. how expensive mercenaries should be), the rosters of the factions (what kind of units should be there and with what attributes).

    By a „garrison” I mean units permanently stationing permanently in a city for some reason. This does not include either a general (he might be there for governing the city or educating himself or any other reason) or the troops gathering for an action in the field.

    Technicalities:
    - „free_upkeep”: if a unit with „free_upkeep” attribute stays in a settlement with a building providing the „free_upkeep”, the faction doesn’t pay upkeep. The number of such units may be higher than 1 – if the building is modded to has more „free_upkeep” slots, or there’re more buildings with such attribute.
    - the effect how much unrest do the military units lower in a settlement is counted on the basis of the number of soldiers in a unit only,
    - „is_peasant” attribute of a unit – the only effect of this attribute is that only half of the strength of this unit plays a role in negating the unrest.

    Currently in the SSHIP:
    - there’s no free upkeep (and Lifthrasir frequently argued against).
    - some units have „is_peasant” attribute, but it has been applied rather erratically (and I have an impression that people equated the attribute with the understanding that it’s really a peasant while I understand it as a pure mechanical thing: how does it impacts the unrest).
    - there’re peasant units (Peasants, Peasant Archers) which - I assume – will be eliminated in the next mod version. This will mean that the lowest tire of units will consist of Militias (like Spear Militia or Axe Militia or Crossbow Militia).

    I can see three roles of the garrisons:
    1) to prevent unrest in a settlement.
    2) to defend a settlement if enemy attacks.
    3) to serve as a reserve in case of a need.

    Historicity:
    a) it was very historical for every settlement to have a garrison (for those 3 reasons).
    b) the garrisons were mixed: some militia would be accompanied by one or a few high-tire (even elite) units, and also some cavalry; sometimes also mercenaries performed this role.
    c) units differed in their abilities to keep the order in the settlements: more professional were often much more effective than simple levies. However, one cannot equate battle professionalism of the troops with their abilities to keep the order. In some factions, there’re units more able to keep the orders but less able at the battle. In some other factions, we may think of these units as „standing army” – permanent troops able to fight wars.
    d) not all lower-tire units were equal in ability to ensure public order in the settlements. Think of the Woodsmen unit in Poland: it would be unwise to keep guys from the woods to keep order among townsfolk. The result would be rather the opposite: angry citizens.

    Game mechanics:
    - the SSHIP ensures there’re garrisons through the public order mechanics: high unrest forces the player to keep many units in a settlement even paying their upkeep. This might be very high numbers - up to 19 units + the general. However, the player is still unlikely to keep high-tire units: it's too expensive and there're no incentives to do so. Of course, forget cavalry beside the genera’s companions.
    - with the free_upkeep mechanics (present in the other mods) the player has a certains advantage over the AI. Knowing that the upkeep costs money he minimalizes the garrisons (even to 0 units) and is unlikely to keep high-tire units. At the same time the AI doesn’t discriminate between cheap and good troops as garrisons.

    So, what can be done to match historicity and mechanics?

    My idea would be:
    - give a few free_upkeep slots to some buildings - very few, perhaps less than in the EBII; for instance, I’m thinking about 1 in a city, 2 in large city and 3 in a huge city; or 1 in a wooden castle, 2 in a castle, 3 in a fortress, 4 in a citadel)
    - give free_upkeep attribute to the chosen better units - but not militia! They would be kept as garrisons on top of those better units – for the unrest reasons. And would be paid. (for this change one would need to go through all factions and choose the units - laborious and requering knowledge of all rosters, but can be done in stages). One may also consider the mercenaries in some instances.
    - apply the „is_peasant” attribute to low-tire unit perceived to fulfill garrisoning in an inferior way;
    - live with the fact that the AI won’t be able to handle that very efficiently. But this is a mechanics for the player to achieve historical feeling. The AI can be compensated in a different way, this is not going to be lots of money anyway.

    The in-game result: the players garrisons will consist of very few better units (only those perceived fit for the garrisoning) and additional militias according the public unrest needs. Less strange units garrisoning the cities.

    If automatic garrisons would ever be implemented, one needs to take attention to the potential rout bug CTD.

    Edits - additional info gathered in this thread:
    (Alavaria): very first soldier makes the difference between having the "No Garrison" penalty or not - perhaps 15% Public order.
    Last edited by Jurand of Cracow; May 15, 2022 at 10:48 AM.
    Mod leader of the SSHIP: traits, ancillaries, scripts, buildings, geography, economy.
    ..............................................................................................................................................................................
    If you want to play a historical mod in the medieval setting the best are:
    Stainless Steel Historical Improvement Project and Broken Crescent.
    Recently, Tsardoms and TGC look also very good. Read my opinions on the other mods here.
    ..............................................................................................................................................................................
    Reviews of the mods (all made in 2018): SSHIP, Wrath of the Norsemen, Broken Crescent.
    Follow home rules for playing a game without exploiting the M2TW engine deficiencies.
    Hints for Medieval 2 moders: forts, merchants, AT-NGB bug, trade fleets.
    Thrones of Britannia: review, opinion on the battles, ideas for modding. Shieldwall is promising!
    Dominant strategy in Rome2, Attila, ToB and Troy: “Sniping groups of armies”. Still there, alas!

  2. #2
    Lifthrasir's Avatar "Capre" Dunkerquois
    Patrician Moderator Emeritus

    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    City of Jan Baert
    Posts
    13,950
    Blog Entries
    4

    Default Re: Garrisoning settlements in the SSHIP - ideas

    Again and once for all, free_upkeep won't be back again as it is too advantageous for the human player (dumb AI not able to use it with efficiency) and not realistic (somebody has to pay for any unit. None of them were for free).
    No matter what, I'm against to any form of free upkeep. That's my point of view and nothing and/or nobody has been able to make me change my mind so far.

  3. #3
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Cracovia
    Posts
    7,483

    Default Re: Garrisoning settlements in the SSHIP - ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by Lifthrasir View Post
    Again and once for all, free_upkeep won't be back again as it is too advantageous for the human player (dumb AI not able to use it with efficiency) and not realistic (somebody has to pay for any unit. None of them were for free).
    No matter what, I'm against to any form of free upkeep. That's my point of view and nothing and/or nobody has been able to make me change my mind so far.
    This is what I'd expected
    As I've written, I don't think it'd be too advantageous for the human player if implemented with care. The question is: what part of the budget one can save with the free_upkeep. If the implementation would be like in the HURB (3 free slots per fort, and the forts were buildable) then the implementation is botched up (fort-farms containing dozens of units). If there're just few slots in the advanced settlements (like in EBII) what enables savings of a few (1-3) percent of your budget, I don't see the problem.
    I agree that it'd be not historical to have any unit for free. However, I find it equally not historical that in SSHIP practice the garrisons consist only of peasants and there're no higher-tire units among them. This is simply wrong to my mind (but correct me). Of course, one may have a home rule for that (and I do), so it doesn't wreckage the game, but still it's unhistorical.
    So the problem for me is: ensuring something what's felt historical (no free upkeep) we create unhistorical gameplay (peasants policing the cities).

  4. #4

    Default Re: Garrisoning settlements in the SSHIP - ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by Jurand of Cracow View Post
    I agree that it'd be not historical to have any unit for free. However, I find it equally not historical that in SSHIP practice the garrisons consist only of peasants and there're no higher-tire units among them. This is simply wrong to my mind (but correct me). Of course, one may have a home rule for that (and I do), so it doesn't wreckage the game, but still it's unhistorical.
    So the problem for me is: ensuring something what's felt historical (no free upkeep) we create unhistorical gameplay (peasants policing the cities).
    Well the other thread had something mentioned like garrisons being really small.

    This makes using your really depleted spear militia (5/153 soldiers) oddly fitting...

  5. #5
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Cracovia
    Posts
    7,483

    Default Re: Garrisoning settlements in the SSHIP - ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by Alavaria View Post
    Well the other thread had something mentioned like garrisons being really small.
    This makes using your really depleted spear militia (5/153 soldiers) oddly fitting...
    As far as I know the garrison effect depends on the number of soldiers, so one full unit of 100 men is equivalent to 20 units of 5 men.
    I think your experience, Alavaria, is a unique one also on the issue of the need to garrison troops: you barely needed it in your Pisa campaing (I've got your file, gonna have a thorought look again ;-). I think most players need many units. At least I do, ther're always 300-1000 soldiers in my cities. And in far-away conquered capital over 2000.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Garrisoning settlements in the SSHIP - ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by Jurand of Cracow View Post
    As far as I know the garrison effect depends on the number of soldiers, so one full unit of 100 men is equivalent to 20 units of 5 men.
    I think your experience, Alavaria, is a unique one also on the issue of the need to garrison troops: you barely needed it in your Pisa campaing (I've got your file, gonna have a thorought look again ;-). I think most players need many units. At least I do, ther're always 300-1000 soldiers in my cities. And in far-away conquered capital over 2000.
    The very very first soldier (#1) the the difference between having the "No Garrison" Public Order penalty or not. I think it's 15% Public order.

    For the rest of it, the "Garrison" Public Order bonus, that's totally right. Though for anything needing a ton of soldiers, it probably warrants taking the time to slide over a high Dread general, as you can get up to 50% Public Order bonus "Governor Influence" with no increase in growth rates and in a way which costs only the wages of a general & bodyguard, no matter if there's 10,000 people or 100,000 people.


    Honestly though, this is one of those things that's only in the range from "sorta worth the effort really early on" to "it's a waste of time later on". In some/many cases you're better of parking a general there with dread and making more money by cranking up the taxes... or maybe not, but it's probably close and you can think of the difference as an investment in training dread generals who can help you hold otherwise unholdable settlements (ie: requires a large garrison AND general) or just later on save you oddles of cash (ie: requires a large garrison OR general)
    Last edited by Alavaria; August 02, 2017 at 09:12 AM.

  7. #7
    Lifthrasir's Avatar "Capre" Dunkerquois
    Patrician Moderator Emeritus

    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    City of Jan Baert
    Posts
    13,950
    Blog Entries
    4

    Default Re: Garrisoning settlements in the SSHIP - ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by Jurand of Cracow View Post
    This is what I'd expected
    As I've written, I don't think it'd be too advantageous for the human player if implemented with care. The question is: what part of the budget one can save with the free_upkeep. If the implementation would be like in the HURB (3 free slots per fort, and the forts were buildable) then the implementation is botched up (fort-farms containing dozens of units). If there're just few slots in the advanced settlements (like in EBII) what enables savings of a few (1-3) percent of your budget, I don't see the problem.
    I agree that it'd be not historical to have any unit for free. However, I find it equally not historical that in SSHIP practice the garrisons consist only of peasants and there're no higher-tire units among them. This is simply wrong to my mind (but correct me). Of course, one may have a home rule for that (and I do), so it doesn't wreckage the game, but still it's unhistorical.
    So the problem for me is: ensuring something what's felt historical (no free upkeep) we create unhistorical gameplay (peasants policing the cities).
    It must be somewherev in the General Discussion thread and about 1 year old. I postec some numbers from historical sources (not many unfortunatly).
    For fortified places, the amount of soldiers was very small, from 10 to 50 maximum, no high quality unit recorded, knights no present or in a very very limited amount.
    For cities, same thing. For Paris at the end of the 13th century (with a population estimated between 80,000 and 200,000 depending on sources), the garrison was less than 100 men, mlostly composed with militia and a few sergeants. No mounted unit recorded. Neighbourhood/local/civil militia could be possibly added in some parts of the city. During that period, Paris was considered as one of the most (if not the most) unsecure place in Western Europe.
    That's for historical part.

    Regarding the gameplay, my answer is in post #2.
    Under the patronage of Flinn, proud patron of Jadli, from the Heresy Vault of the Imperial House of Hader

  8. #8

    Default Re: Garrisoning settlements in the SSHIP - ideas

    In my opinion, i am against free upkeep
    ( same Lifth think) and of course i hope that in next version peasant,peasant archers units will be removed,( more free slots)
    I think that for garrison in settlements militias units as spearmen militia, axes militia, crossbow and archera militias are fit for this, but they should have the attribute ''is peasant'', all militias and units from peasants as woodsmen,hunters,kasogi,azabs,shurta militia,clansmen... i refer all poor and light units
    The excepcion would be proffesional and elite troops and also sergeants and mercenaries
    Maybe for some factions could make a ''police unit'' especially for garrison settlements and cheap but bad in field combat,,but i think that this unit would be as the ''urban spear militia'' tipycal in th italians cities
    THE MORE YOU SWEAT NOW,
    THE LESS YOU BLEED IN BATTLE!!!



    Sign the petition to remove hardcoded limits for M2TW

  9. #9

    Default Re: Garrisoning settlements in the SSHIP - ideas

    Well that matches my use of units which is to say soldiers are invading people all the time and not sitting behind walls. So it's good to know the tiny numbers sitting at home match up with history

  10. #10
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Cracovia
    Posts
    7,483

    Default Re: Garrisoning settlements in the SSHIP - ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by Lifthrasir View Post
    It must be somewherev in the General Discussion thread and about 1 year old. I postec some numbers from historical sources (not many unfortunatly).
    For fortified places, the amount of soldiers was very small, from 10 to 50 maximum, no high quality unit recorded, knights no present or in a very very limited amount.
    For cities, same thing. For Paris at the end of the 13th century (with a population estimated between 80,000 and 200,000 depending on sources), the garrison was less than 100 men, mlostly composed with militia and a few sergeants. No mounted unit recorded. Neighbourhood/local/civil militia could be possibly added in some parts of the city. (...)
    Ok, I got it. Let's work under this assumption and change nothing.

    However, this is another issue I'll be keen on to research in future. These numbers sound quite low to my ears. How did they restore order if there was, say, a fraud at the marketplace and 1000 people started rioting? 100 guys for the city? I've got much doubts. Let's have a look at Rome in the 1-3 centuries - there're pretorians (10k) plus vigilantes (true police, helping to put out the fires etc., 2k) plus cohortes urbanae (a kind of riot police, 2k). (I'm still considering buying this book on the ancient times, which apparently claims that we keep on underestimating the strenght of police in Rome). So were the medieval Parisians so pussy compared to the Roman ancient folk?
    If somebody knows a book on this issue in the medieval era, please give me know.

    Another issue for consideration is (again): what do we mean by garrison of "a settlement"? Are these the forces only in this very settlment or these are the forces in the region? Should we pay attention to the historical numbers of Paris, or to the whole region around Paris (perhaps somebody was dwelling in some king's castles...). If Alavaria kept 5 men in each city of north italy, does it mean that in those province his faction didn't have more troops? I know we need to give up our disbelieve in any game, but this issue could break my immersion. Fortunately, in 0.9.2 you still need to keep much of garrisons in your cities (unless you play Alavaria).

    Quote Originally Posted by Alavaria View Post
    Well that matches my use of units which is to say soldiers are invading people all the time and not sitting behind walls. So it's good to know the tiny numbers sitting at home match up with history
    I have slight doubts if the game you played matched up much with history. Pisa (or any faction) taking over and keeping the whole continent within less then 100 years? This was an Alavaria game, not a history game
    Mod leader of the SSHIP: traits, ancillaries, scripts, buildings, geography, economy.
    ..............................................................................................................................................................................
    If you want to play a historical mod in the medieval setting the best are:
    Stainless Steel Historical Improvement Project and Broken Crescent.
    Recently, Tsardoms and TGC look also very good. Read my opinions on the other mods here.
    ..............................................................................................................................................................................
    Reviews of the mods (all made in 2018): SSHIP, Wrath of the Norsemen, Broken Crescent.
    Follow home rules for playing a game without exploiting the M2TW engine deficiencies.
    Hints for Medieval 2 moders: forts, merchants, AT-NGB bug, trade fleets.
    Thrones of Britannia: review, opinion on the battles, ideas for modding. Shieldwall is promising!
    Dominant strategy in Rome2, Attila, ToB and Troy: “Sniping groups of armies”. Still there, alas!

  11. #11

    Default Re: Garrisoning settlements in the SSHIP - ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by Jurand of Cracow View Post
    Another issue for consideration is (again): what do we mean by garrison of "a settlement"? Are these the forces only in this very settlment or these are the forces in the region? Should we pay attention to the historical numbers of Paris, or to the whole region around Paris (perhaps somebody was dwelling in some king's castles...). If Alavaria kept 5 men in each city of north italy, does it mean that in those province his faction didn't have more troops?
    This is the sort of oddity that I mention in a story that a faction is held together magically by a small number of critical population centers. It's like you could take a particular (the last) village and suddenly everyone gives up fighting you and never attempts anything even if the faction had huge armies left in the field.

    Maybe since garrison is linked to the public order thing which is related to rebellion (rather than say petty crime) it would be better to think of them as an occupying force, so the fact there's 1 soldier in a city of 200000 means you're not occupying it, whereas 10000 people in a city of 20000 means you really mean business. And you know what they say about foreign wars turning into quagmires...

  12. #12

    Default Units Coast & Garrisoning In SSHIP

    I"m new to this forum and this my first thread ever
    so i start play sship and its actually a really good mod the public order in this mod is i think realistic
    The problem here is everyone want to garrison his settlement not one settlement but all of them not with two or three unit but with halfe a stack at least so the defensive battle be more dramatic
    The idea is if we make units cheaper they will lost their value so why not make the rrecruitment cost more expensive ant the upkeep more cheaper
    form example a unit cost 1000 with 400 upkeep become a unit coast 10000 with 40 upkeep
    What is your opinion ???
    Sorry if i made some written mistakes my english not that good

  13. #13
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Cracovia
    Posts
    7,483

    Default Re: Units Coast & Garrisoning In SSHIP

    Hi,
    welcome to the forum!
    There's a thread devoted to this issue, and think your post will be moved by the administrator.
    You may also see here.
    JoC
    Mod leader of the SSHIP: traits, ancillaries, scripts, buildings, geography, economy.
    ..............................................................................................................................................................................
    If you want to play a historical mod in the medieval setting the best are:
    Stainless Steel Historical Improvement Project and Broken Crescent.
    Recently, Tsardoms and TGC look also very good. Read my opinions on the other mods here.
    ..............................................................................................................................................................................
    Reviews of the mods (all made in 2018): SSHIP, Wrath of the Norsemen, Broken Crescent.
    Follow home rules for playing a game without exploiting the M2TW engine deficiencies.
    Hints for Medieval 2 moders: forts, merchants, AT-NGB bug, trade fleets.
    Thrones of Britannia: review, opinion on the battles, ideas for modding. Shieldwall is promising!
    Dominant strategy in Rome2, Attila, ToB and Troy: “Sniping groups of armies”. Still there, alas!

  14. #14
    tmodelsk's Avatar Tiro
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Location
    Warsaw, Poland
    Posts
    269

    Default Re: Garrisoning settlements in the SSHIP - ideas

    Mentioned historical garrison sizes by Lifthrasir are in garrison script mini-mod tread, this post or in general page #2 of this thread
    SSHIP mini-mods :

  15. #15
    Lifthrasir's Avatar "Capre" Dunkerquois
    Patrician Moderator Emeritus

    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    City of Jan Baert
    Posts
    13,950
    Blog Entries
    4

    Default Re: Garrisoning settlements in the SSHIP - ideas

    Thanks tmoldesk for linking my post with all these figures
    Under the patronage of Flinn, proud patron of Jadli, from the Heresy Vault of the Imperial House of Hader

  16. #16
    tmodelsk's Avatar Tiro
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Location
    Warsaw, Poland
    Posts
    269

    Default Re: Garrisoning settlements in the SSHIP - ideas

    I've been thinking about this thread and Jurand and others proposals from yesterday.

    I like very much the idea to widely use 'is_peasant' attribute, to use it 'smart',
    so all units should get it except (example):

    - knights
    - exceptional / superior / professional units / heavy units
    - specialized urban militias (??), billmen (?)

    so in some cases or in some periods it would be beneficial for player (upkeep costs) to have at least one or two non-peasant units as garrisons.
    Or to encourage such behavior.
    Or possibly garrisons in large cities would be composed of such professional units.

    I'm against of widely using 'free upkeep' attribute for 'better garrisons'. (I'm for using it only in specific situations like in my tweak 'Fight for survival').

    In general I think that SSHIP unrest level should be lowered, but that's my personal opinion and my optional configurable tweak Settlement Unrest Lowered does this.
    SSHIP mini-mods :

  17. #17
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Cracovia
    Posts
    7,483

    Default Re: Garrisoning settlements in the SSHIP - ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by tmodelsk View Post
    I've been thinking about this thread and Jurand and others proposals from yesterday.

    I like very much the idea to widely use 'is_peasant' attribute, to use it 'smart',
    so all units should get it except (example):

    - knights
    - exceptional / superior / professional units / heavy units
    - specialized urban militias (??), billmen (?)

    so in some cases or in some periods it would be beneficial for player (upkeep costs) to have at least one or two non-peasant units as garrisons.
    Or to encourage such behavior.
    Or possibly garrisons in large cities would be composed of such professional units.

    I'm against of widely using 'free upkeep' attribute for 'better garrisons'. (I'm for using it only in specific situations like in my tweak 'Fight for survival').

    In general I think that SSHIP unrest level should be lowered, but that's my personal opinion and my optional configurable tweak Settlement Unrest Lowered does this.
    Cześć Tomek,
    I think such "accross-the-board" application of "is_peasant' would undo the balance in the game (if I understand you correctly). If we remove peasants units (peasant, peasant archers) and apply the "is_peasant" only to some of the units the problem will be mitigated. The "militia" units (like Spear Militia) should be the right ones for keeping the order in the settlement. The professional and knight units should be able to do the same job, but it shouldn't be cost-effective.. Units with "is_peasant" should be those which are by their nature not fit to be a garrisoning the cities, especially those not accustomed to the urban life (like Woodsmen, Hunters, or in Georgia: Mtieli Swordsmen, Svanian Archers or Caucasus Hillmen). One should choose them case-by-case.

    As you know, I'm in favour of having very few "free_upkeep" slots in the settlements (like: 1 minor city, 2 for large city) to ensure "at least one or two strong units garrisoning a settlement (so the "free_upkeep" attribute would be assigned to strong units: feudal and professional, maybe some specialized like Metsikhovne), but Lifthrasir has ruled it out and I don't bring it further.

    Unrest - I'm strongly against lowering it. I've played recently in the Broken Crescent and the ease of conquering province after province without need to pay any attention to the unrest destroyed my experience. I think in a historical mod gains of magnitute of 1-2 provices per one war should be possible, but not more. This would be historical, I think (and this is far more important for "historicality" of a mod than using helmets or bows from 17th century). High unrest (both initial, as well as a "natural" one, also religious) serves this purpose very well.

    JoC
    Last edited by Jurand of Cracow; August 13, 2017 at 10:52 AM.
    Mod leader of the SSHIP: traits, ancillaries, scripts, buildings, geography, economy.
    ..............................................................................................................................................................................
    If you want to play a historical mod in the medieval setting the best are:
    Stainless Steel Historical Improvement Project and Broken Crescent.
    Recently, Tsardoms and TGC look also very good. Read my opinions on the other mods here.
    ..............................................................................................................................................................................
    Reviews of the mods (all made in 2018): SSHIP, Wrath of the Norsemen, Broken Crescent.
    Follow home rules for playing a game without exploiting the M2TW engine deficiencies.
    Hints for Medieval 2 moders: forts, merchants, AT-NGB bug, trade fleets.
    Thrones of Britannia: review, opinion on the battles, ideas for modding. Shieldwall is promising!
    Dominant strategy in Rome2, Attila, ToB and Troy: “Sniping groups of armies”. Still there, alas!

  18. #18

    Default Re: Garrisoning settlements in the SSHIP - ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by Jurand of Cracow View Post
    Cześć Tomek,
    I think such "accross-the-board" application of "is_peasant' would undo the balance in the game (if I understand you correctly). If we remove peasants units (peasant, peasant archers) and apply the "is_peasant" only to some of the units the problem will be mitigated. The "militia" units (like Spear Militia) should be the right ones for keeping the order in the settlement. The professional and knight units should be able to do the same job, but it shouldn't be cost-effective.. Units with "is_peasant" should be those which are by their nature not fit to be a garrisoning the cities, especially those not accustomed to the urban life (like Woodsmen, Hunters, or in Georgia: Mtieli Swordsmen, Svanian Archers or Caucasus Hillmen). One should choose them case-by-case.
    Yes, I think that's basically right. A modifier of half is not that great compared to the range of "wage per soldier" we see, so spreading around the is_peasant tag too much means you will be using something like Levy Archers (cheaper per soldier in the is_peasant class and also more than twice as cheap as the cheapest outside the class).

    Of course it's not unimportant to note that as the tag isn't visible in-game, it would be nice to have it less spammed about than more. Though potentially it isn't all that long to check all your faction's units in a particular order (lowest to highest wage per soldier, find the cheapest is_peasant and non is_peasant and compare them).
    Last edited by Alavaria; August 13, 2017 at 08:13 PM.

  19. #19
    Lifthrasir's Avatar "Capre" Dunkerquois
    Patrician Moderator Emeritus

    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    City of Jan Baert
    Posts
    13,950
    Blog Entries
    4

    Default Re: Garrisoning settlements in the SSHIP - ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by Jurand of Cracow View Post
    (...) As you know, I'm in favour of having very few "free_upkeep" slots in the settlements (like: 1 minor city, 2 for large city) to ensure "at least one or two strong units garrisoning a settlement (so the "free_upkeep" attribute would be assigned to strong units: feudal and professional, maybe some specialized like Metsikhovne), but Lifthrasir has ruled it out and I don't bring it further (...)
    THIS ^^
    That's exactly the issue with free upkeep. Nothing can guarantee that the AI will use the free upkeep for good units.
    Under the patronage of Flinn, proud patron of Jadli, from the Heresy Vault of the Imperial House of Hader

  20. #20
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Cracovia
    Posts
    7,483

    Default Re: Garrisoning settlements in the SSHIP - ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by Lifthrasir View Post
    THIS ^^
    That's exactly the issue with free upkeep. Nothing can guarantee that the AI will use the free upkeep for good units.
    The only issue I'd pointed out was " Lifthrasir has ruled it out"
    I think that the free upkeep mechanism is not for the AI. Of course it will not use it for good units, it may just happen by chance, but the AI is unaware of this mechanics and it's not designed for it. But this is not the point of having this mechanics in game (and I'm in favour of having it in the game). The point is to provide the player with an incentive to keep 1-2 good units in every settlement - what I find both historical and good for the gameplay (there're reserves but the playes doesn't have that bad feeling of losing money by keeping good units idle).
    For the AI there're other mechanisms to compensate. This is mainly the garrison-spawn, as I argue. Also a larger king's purse plays this role or other financial bonuses.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •