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  1. #1
    Lifthrasir's Avatar "Capre" Dunkerquois
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    Default The Sultanate of Rūm (info and units)

    Well, the title says all

    The discussion about the Seljuks of Rūm has started here, basically following remarks from JoC about Anatolia. I guess giving a specific thread to that faction is better to keep all info in one place.

    Basically, there are 3 points that need to be discussed:
    - Anatolian Provinces names
    - Banners and faction's symbol for Rūm
    - Units roster

    For those who are ready for a long read, have a look at the following link: http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/saljuqs-iii
    That's probably one of the best source I've found so far about Rūm.
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  2. #2
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: The Sultanate of Rūm (info and units)

    I would add also 3 other sorts issues where info would be useful, I think:
    - starting settlements, including their size and buildings present;
    - starting armies, generals (names, age, features), and other;
    - provincial titles' names for the Turkish governors (see here).


    Given that people usually don't scroll through the ancient threads, I'd like to repeat arguments already presented (my thoughts are not quoted for the sake of easy reading):

    Provinces' names:
    - Soutern Cappadocia is now around Malatya, on the eastern side of the Antitaurus. I don't think it's the proper name since Cappadocia were on the western side of the mountais, it was the Halys basin area. Eg. in the Broken Crescent this part is called Lesser Armenia (which I also have doubts). Commagene would be more pertinent I think (but I'm not certain).
    --- the central part of the current SSHIP province Lycia is made out of the historical Pamphylia while spreading west to Lycia and east to some parts of Rough Cilicia / Isauria. I'm not sure about the use of "Pamphylia" term in 12th century, but at the moment it sounds right to me. In the Roman times there're was a province "Lycia and Pamphylia" here (although for a short time). Lycia was in fact just a small hilly land with some rivers and some towns sitting on them. I don't think we should use it in SSHIP for such a vast province.
    --- there's no Pontus province in SSHIP. I believe the term was used extensivelly in the Middle Ages. There's Chaldia province with Trebizon, I've got no clue about. I assume it's right but one may reflect upon if needed. In the Ancient times the Northern Cappadocia was called Kapadokia Pontika what then transformed into Pontus. In the late antiquity it was supposed to be on the coast, so I thought that the coast with Trebizond would be called Pontus. Again. I'm ignorant on this matter.My initial proposal is that we replace names:
    --- Pamphylia (Konya) with Lycaonia,
    --- Lycia (Attaleia) with "Lycia and Pamphylia" or "Pamphylia"
    --- Lycaonia (Kayseri) with Southern Cappadocia,
    --- Souther Cappadocia (Malatya) with something different (Armenia Minor, Commagene or simply Malatya)

    Quote Originally Posted by Lifthrasir View Post
    Regarding the regions, I need to make further researches but there are records from Anna Komene in which she linked Qilij Arslan to Konya described as the old provincial center of Lycaonia. Though she's also inaccurate with names and geographical details
    Quote Originally Posted by Giorgios View Post
    Re province names, I think probably the ancient ones are best. A century earlier, you'd have been talking about the Byzantine theme of the Anatolikon, but as the themes never recovered during the SSHIP period, I think you'd be pushed to use them.
    Settlements' names:

    Qualiqala
    There's a city on the Euphratus/Firat called in arabic Qualiqala, armenian Karin, turkish Erzurum, greek Theodosiopoulis. I wonder which of these names should be used in the SSHIP. Now it's Qualiqala which seems to be right in 7-10 century, but perhaps not later on. It got its Turkish name after the invasions following the battle of Mantzikert (see here, but've read it elsewhere). It seems to me that in the SSHIP it should be Erzurum while playing the Turks and Karin while playing Geogria and Theodosioupolis while playing Vasileia ton Hromaion or Kiev./

    Konya
    Quote Originally Posted by Lifthrasir View Post
    There are sources mentioning Konya before 1134 AD.
    After the surrender of Nicaea in 1097 AD, Fulcher of Chartres mentioned already Konya. Some others Frankish sources described Konya as "a rich town, the inhabitants of which kindly received the armed pilgrims and supplied them with plenty of water and foodstuff".
    Quote Originally Posted by Giorgios View Post
    In terms of Konya vs Ikonion- what language did the Rum Sultans govern in? I wonder if the most "accurate" could be the Arabic- which I seem to remember is "Quniyyah", or something along those lines...
    Gameplay / starting positions

    (on 1132 start)
    Quote Originally Posted by Lifthrasir View Post
    On the gameplay side, remember that Rūm starts relatively weak compare to ERE and is surrounded by quite strong independant settlements.
    (on 1236 start)
    I think Rum in the High Era campaign (1236) is overpowered: it has 8 very developed provinces. Close to that moment it should also have a gigantic Mongol army at the gates (to be defeat Rum at Kose Dag 1243). I think in the SSHIP the Mongols come later in the High Era (I don't know how it's going) so we need to make the life of Rum harsher with the other means. It would be strange to have smaller and less developed settlements in the high era than in the early era though. So - Carthaginem delendam esse - I think that Konya should be nerfed much in the early campaign, and the game balance in 1132 should be restored through other means (like additional nomad army ready to take over more lands? This would be more historical and would leave the player space to develop this land during his own game, not be given with a 70k, 50k, 40k settlements...

    Last edited by Jurand of Cracow; July 22, 2017 at 04:02 PM.

  3. #3
    Lifthrasir's Avatar "Capre" Dunkerquois
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    Default Re: The Sultanate of Rūm (info and units)

    About the provinces' names:
    - Pamphylia (Konya) -> Lycaonia
    - Lycia (Attaleia) -> Lycia. Pamphylia is included in that province in game, like Phrygia is included in Galatia. Thought, only 1 name is used. I'd keep the same principle.
    - Lycaonia (Kayseri) -> Southern Cappadoacia. To stay "logical", it should be Western Cappadocia while the current Northern Cappadoacia should become Eastern Cappadocia. However, there's no "official" record with such names.
    - Southern Cappadocia (Malatya) -> Malatya or Armenia.Tertia. These are the only records I could find so far.
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  4. #4

    Default Re: The Sultanate of Rūm (info and units)

    About selyuk of rum unit roster, we talked it some time ago in the thread ''new faction units roster'' but in general would be this:
    Seljuks of rum should have ghazi troops. they very not just 'jihad' troops, but also veterans serving as frontiers. And should have plenty of horse archers.. Tribal, Tribal leaders(begs), etc etc.. Ghulams of seljuks of rum should fight in melee, to make it up for lack of melee ghulam cavalry. They would also have rumi spearmens, and azeri troops. Btw im speaking of seljuks of rum, not ottomans.. but some ottoman units like janiceries and sipahis could be added of course.
    So a lot of horse archers, archers, some spearmen and elite units in melee and ghazi troops
    The question is...someone have new models for make new roster for selyuks and other muslims factions?
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    Default Re: The Sultanate of Rūm (info and units)

    Ottoman units can be used as late units. We just need to choose these carefully to be sure it is realistic.
    But other wise, I agree with you. Rūm roster should be mostly based on horse archers and local mercenaries such as Armenians for instance (though I need to make some researches again ).
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  6. #6

    Default Re: The Sultanate of Rūm (info and units)

    The Seljuks of Rum recruited Armenians?

  7. #7

    Default Re: The Sultanate of Rūm (info and units)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mamlaz View Post
    The Seljuks of Rum recruited Armenians?
    Actually, the Seljuks were viewed in some regions (not all!) as a better alternate to the Romans and as a result were not always unwilling to fight in the armies, in fact Mattthew of Edessa an Armenian Chronicler in 1136 talks of the Seljuk conquest in these terms: “He, came andentered the Roman Empire in the West in order to take over theregion. This Sultan's Heart was filled with benevolence, gentleness,and compassion for the Christians: he showed fatherly affection forall the inhabitants of the lands and so gained control of many townsand regions without resistance.”
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  8. #8

    Default Re: The Sultanate of Rūm (info and units)

    Quote Originally Posted by WeekendGeneral View Post
    Actually, the Seljuks were viewed in some regions (not all!) as a better alternate to the Romans and as a result were not always unwilling to fight in the armies, in fact Mattthew of Edessa an Armenian Chronicler in 1136 talks of the Seljuk conquest in these terms: “He, came andentered the Roman Empire in the West in order to take over theregion. This Sultan's Heart was filled with benevolence, gentleness,and compassion for the Christians: he showed fatherly affection forall the inhabitants of the lands and so gained control of many townsand regions without resistance.”

    The Seljuks were not seen as better than Romans by any Christian anywhere.

    Your quote is only about Malik-Shah I who was different from his predecessors and who waged war nearly entirely against other Muslim factions, so his limited campaign against Christians is all that quote speaks off, not the Seljuks as a whole.


    From another Armenian, Aristakes Lastiverttsi;

    "The gate of Heaven’s wrath opened upon our land. Numerous troops moved forth from T‘urk‘astan [Turkestan], their horses were as fleet as eagles, with hooves as solid as rock. Well girded, their bows were taut, their arrows sharp, and the laces of their shoes were never untied … They sped like lions, and like lion cubs, they mercilessly threw the corpses of many peoples to the carnivorous beasts and birds......"

    Or one of the Muslim Ghaznavid's, Bayhaqi;

    "The Turkmen damage every place and people, they steal everything they find and much evil comes from them."

  9. #9
    Lifthrasir's Avatar "Capre" Dunkerquois
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    Default Re: The Sultanate of Rūm (info and units)

    Not sure about that point. That's why I said that I need to make researches.
    The point on which I'm sure is that some settlements with a majority of Armenians preferred to be ruled by some Seljuks Emirs instead of by the ERE because that gave them some autonomy that the wouldn't got with the Byzzies. However, that's on the political side and I'm not sure that the military side worked that way as well.
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  10. #10

    Default Re: The Sultanate of Rūm (info and units)

    Well yeah, the whole point of Muslim rule over Christians at the time was that they were exempt from military service in exchange for higher taxes.

    The only Christians I know Seljuks recruiting are western knights as mercenaries, but not Armenians.

  11. #11
    Lifthrasir's Avatar "Capre" Dunkerquois
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    Default Re: The Sultanate of Rūm (info and units)

    As said, I don't know if it was the case or not. For sure Armenians were used by Fatimids. For instance, Badr al-Jamali was a freed Armenian slave who became Vizier around 1073 AD. His army included Armenians, Christians and Turks.
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  12. #12

    Default Re: The Sultanate of Rūm (info and units)

    Quote Originally Posted by Lifthrasir View Post
    Well, the title says all

    The discussion about the Seljuks of Rūm has started here, basically following remarks from JoC about Anatolia. I guess giving a specific thread to that faction is better to keep all info in one place.

    Basically, there are 3 points that need to be discussed:
    - Anatolian Provinces names
    - Banners and faction's symbol for Rūm
    - Units roster

    For those who are ready for a long read, have a look at the following link: http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/saljuqs-iii
    That's probably one of the best source I've found so far about Rūm.
    As general this source is true. Maybe you realize that following link has already prepared from tons of books.

  13. #13
    Lifthrasir's Avatar "Capre" Dunkerquois
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    Default Re: The Sultanate of Rūm (info and units)

    I know. Why do you think I've posted that link?
    In a general manner, that site is very good when it comes about Medieval Middle East.

    About Armenians and Seljuks:
    At the heart of this narrative, therefore, lie two assumptions: that the Armenians were a unified community whose attitudes towards the Latins were similar, whether they resided in Jerusalem or on the shores of Lake Van, and that the Armenians were ideologically or religiously motivated in their alliances. Although both of these notions are problematic for historians of the Crusades and the Near East, the latter idea poses a more serious obstacle for understanding the history of Armenians during the Crusades, as it limits the Armenians to a specific confessional category.
    In addition to scholarship which makes reference to the Armenians under Crusader rule, there have also been works dealing with situation of Armenians living under Islamic rule between the eleventh and fourteenth centuries, covering roughly the period from the Turkish invasions to the Mongol conquests. Overwhelmingly, these scholars are concerned with the existence of Armenians in Anatolia under the Sejuks of Rūm, the Danishmandids of Cappadocia, and the Mongol Ilkhanids. One of the most important scholars in this regard has been Claude Cahen, whose work Pre-Ottoman Turkey or The Formation of Turkey has formed the basis for the modern understanding of the politics, economy, and society of Seljuk Anatolia. Although not concerned primarily with the Armenians, Cahen makes passing reference to this ethno-religious community throughout his work. Indeed, his survey of pre-Ottoman Anatolia makes it clear that the Armenians were an integral part of the social, religious, and economic landscape and played a variety of roles under Turkish Islamic rule. Throughout Cahen’s discussion, from the initial Turkish incursions culminating in the Battle of Manzikert in 1071 to the Mongol invasions in the thirteenth century, he makes it clear that the social and political history of Armenians was deeply tied to the various developments occurring in the Near East, and that it is necessary to understand both Armenian history and these developments (the Turkish invasions, the Crusades, the Mongol conquests) as a totality.
    More significantly, Cahen explains that the geo-political reality enabled various modes of interactions between the Armenians of Anatolia and their Muslim (and Christian) neighbors, explaining that the relationship between Armenians, Seljuks, Byzantines, Danishmandids, and Franks was extremely multi-faceted. As such, he differentiates between Armenians in different regions of Anatolia, and between the communities in Anatolia and the Armenians in Cilicia and the Latin kingdoms, explaining that the experience of each group differed immensely, despite the shared common linguistic and cultural heritage of the Armenians in these regions. In this regard, Cahen’s work is important in challenging traditional scholarship which casts Armenians as a monolithic community with “naturally” pro-Western/Christian sympathies. He does so by presenting a narrative in which Armenian warriors, priests, and architects were an essential part of the Seljuk Anatolia, where the Armenians often lived in close proximity with their Muslim neighbors, an experience punctuated by both tolerance and persecution but which was primarily characterized by a diverse Armenian experience which is difficult to simplify or essentialize. The major contribution of this category of scholars has been to contextualize Armenian history within that of the larger Near Eastern environment. However, with the exception of Cahen, most of the traditionalist historiography has been limited to brief description or ethnography, often over-simplifying the historical reality, and has failed to emphasize the diversity of the Armenian experience and the dynamic, and often multi-faceted relationship between the Armenians and their neighbors in the Near East.
    Full article here. So yes, I'm pretty sure that Armenians mercenaries were employed by Seljuks in Anatolia as they were by Zengids in Syria or Fatimids in Egypt.
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    Default Re: The Sultanate of Rūm (info and units)

    Below, some Rūm symbols that might be used for the banners:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Can't remember where I found this one - my bad

    Some coins:

    Note the horse archer.


    Note the leopard/lion and sun which are originally Persian symbols.

    Horse ornament:
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  15. #15

    Default Re: The Sultanate of Rūm (info and units)



  16. #16

    Default Re: The Sultanate of Rūm (info and units)



    Here are some pictures for banners. Actually They are all same.

    P.S: Konya Büyükşehir Belediyesi - Konya Metropolitan Municipality

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    Default Re: The Sultanate of Rūm (info and units)

    Not all of them for sure. The double headed eagle was used by Rūm but I have serious doubt about the one with the bow honestly
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  18. #18

    Default Re: The Sultanate of Rūm (info and units)

    I already provided their eagle imagery on the other thread, no bows anywhere.

  19. #19

    Default Re: The Sultanate of Rūm (info and units)

    And the banners of rum selyuks and the great selyuk empire are the same or have some differences? At least for difference in thea game...
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  20. #20
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    Default Re: The Sultanate of Rūm (info and units)

    From several sources:

    According to Qazvīnī (12th century), the Shiʿite kings had banners of white, green, and all other colors save black, while the Seljuk monarchs employed green, yellow, and red.

    The Seljuk dynasty (ruled in Iran 1037-1194 AD) became a great patron of Iranian arts, language, literature and culture. The Seljuks virtually revived a number of ancient Iranian mythological themes such as the Simugh (Iranic Phoenix), Homa (Iranic Griffin), the Stara (Iranic for “Star”), Shir e Iran (Lion of Persia/Iran), etc. (Consult Nafisi and Minovi in references).
    One example is the appearance of the mythical lion symbol on the coins of Sultan Ghiasol-Din Kay-khosrow (reigned 1236-1246 AD), one of the Seljuk rulers in Anatolia known by the ancient Iranic designation of “Rum“, in reference to the region’s Romano-Byzantine legacy. What is of interest is the ruler’s name which had both Sassanian (i.e. Khosrow) and Shahname (i.e. Kay) roots. The usage of the lion motif was evidently the Sultan’s attempt to symbolize his political and military prowess (see the coin I've posted in post #12).

    Below, some examples of banners (more from Persia than Anatolia but giving a good representation anyway):
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    Seljuk bronze bowl (from Khorasan area - North-East of Iran):
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Note the Griffin in it.


    From Varqa wa Gulsha manuscrit (Anatolia - 1250 AD):
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Note the red and white squares motive in the middle (come back on this later)


    Note the shield's motives on the upper right corner


    Note the shield's motives in upper right corner again.
    Last edited by Lifthrasir; July 25, 2017 at 07:11 AM.
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