Imperial crown struggle/Welf-Staufer conflict

[Eidgeniesser]

I'm slightly confused about how the factions will be set up in regards to the Guelph/Staufer conflict and the HRE.

Who will be the HR Emperor? Earlier this year it seems that Otto VI (IIRC) of the Welf dynasty would be Emperor at the start date but in the newest HRE preview the faction leader is portrayed as Staufer.

If Friedich II. of Hohenstaufen is Emperor how would that work out with his personal union over Sicily?

I think the best way to deal with it would be to keep the Welf as Emperor (I'm saying this as a big fanboy of stupor mundi and the Staufen dynasty in general) because Friedrich became King of the Romans in December 1212 and HR Emperor only in 1220. And even then his power base and main interest was in Sicily.

And maybe (similarily to the struggle between the Latin Empire and Nicaea) you could give Sicily the possibility to form a confederation to become the HRE as soon as they have conquered the Guelph HRE. Just a suggestion.

[Knight2708]

Yeah really curious about this as well. Would it even be possible to lead two different factions e.g. Friedrich II being both king of Sicily and Holy Roman Emperor?

[zsimmortal]

It will be Otto that starts as Holy Roman Emperor, don't rely on previews for campaign map content. We do plan on having something done for this, but it will likely be later in the campaign's development. One idea that I've kicked around was the use of events/dilemmas like in Attila.

[The_Fawn_Rescuer]

To make Otto the HRE reflects an oversimplification of events, and doesn't take into account the political situation at the time. Otto's base of power was always in the lower Rhine, centered around Cologne. By 1210 he had been excommunicated by Innocent III, and by 1212 Frederick II was Emperor-elect with the support of the Pope, and had marched into Upper Germany, where he had been confirmed as King of the Romans and King of Germany twice by electors in that region. By 1212, Otto's chances of coming out on top were already looking rather grim. I think the most realistic scenario would be a sort of HRE civil war. Otto as leader of one of the northern duchies like Trier or Brabant, with an alliance of the northern Germans represented by Trier, Brabant, and Saxony, and friendly relations with the English and bad relations with France. In the South, Frederick II would lead the HRE-proper, while his wife Constance of Aragon was Queen and regent of Sicily from 1212-1220, so she should be ruler there, rather than him. Frederick was in Upper Germany, leading the way against Otto. HRE should be allied with Brandenburg (they were the main initiators of Frederick's election, due to being upset about Otto's failure to deal with Danish incursions), Bavaria, Austria, and of course Sicily - with friendly relations with France and bad relations with England. Some of the elector states (such as Bohemia, Thuringia, Lorraine and Burgundy) should be neutral, as potential allies that can be won over by either side.

[Knight2708]

To make Otto the HRE reflects an oversimplification of events, and doesn't take into account the political situation at the time. Otto's base of power was always in the lower Rhine, centered around Cologne. By 1210 he had been excommunicated by Innocent III, and by 1212 Frederick II was Emperor-elect with the support of the Pope, and had marched into Upper Germany, where he had been confirmed as King of the Romans and King of Germany twice by electors in that region. By 1212, Otto's chances of coming out on top were already looking rather grim. I think the most realistic scenario would be a sort of HRE civil war. Otto as leader of one of the northern duchies like Trier or Brabant, with an alliance of the northern Germans represented by Trier, Brabant, and Saxony, and friendly relations with the English and bad relations with France. In the South, Frederick II would lead the HRE-proper, while his wife Constance of Aragon was Queen and regent of Sicily from 1212-1220, so she should be ruler there, rather than him. Frederick was in Upper Germany, leading the way against Otto. HRE should be allied with Brandenburg (they were the main initiators of Frederick's election, due to being upset about Otto's failure to deal with Danish incursions), Bavaria, Austria, and of course Sicily - with friendly relations with France and bad relations with England. Some of the elector states (such as Bohemia, Thuringia, Lorraine and Burgundy) should be neutral, as potential allies that can be won over by either side.

The problem with this is that it would require a new Welf-faction centered around Cologne to be created to work, just making Otto the ruler of another faction such as Trier or Brabant would be plain wrong and unhistorical and would represent the situation even less accurately. Making Frederick king of Sicily with a claim to becoming Holy Roman Emperor and making Otto Holy Roman Emperor with a bunch of hostile and rebellious vassals is, while certainly not a perfect solution, still more accurate than making Otto leader of a faction that he did not lead historically.

[zsimmortal]

Peter Wilson (The Holy Roman Empire, 2016) says :

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Frederick II is the more iconic of the two rulers without question, but he is not the legitimate ruler. The mod will never able to properly represent medieval politics. Let's not start bending history to get a desired result.

[Eidgeniesser]

I would agree that Staufer-Sicily and Welf-HRE is the best solution for the time being. Its a tricky start date for the HRE anyway, but at the same time its one that works well with gameplay so we dont have a OP HRE similarily to CK2. And it represents the constant infighting of the HRE the best way possible in a Total War game, i guess. And as you said its near impossible to correctly represent the medieval politics in Attila. And I understand that these details are not the main priority at the time and am looking forward to seeing what your further plans on this subject are.

To be nitpicking: According to the table of kings and anti-kings you quote Otto IV. wouldn't be legitimate HR Emperor either at that time, it would be Philip, which is strange because he died in 1208 (error of Mr. Wilson or did I misread the table?). In general Otto's reign was more of an intermezzo, especially after the defeat at bouvine in 1214, for what was a more or less continuous Staufer rule of the HRE since Konrad III. and Friedrich II. ruled the HRE for the next 30 years, so Fawn has a point.
On the other hand as far as I know Friedrich II was mostly in southern Italy even as Emperor and was also more interested in his italian holdings (Palermo court).

A suggestion (for later on in the development of the mod maybe) would be to give Strassbourg to Sicily to represent Staufer presence in the HRE and have the civil war from the start date as Fawn suggests because Alsace was a main domain (next to swabia which cant be represented on the attila map) of the Staufers (Hagenau Pfalz) and thus further weaken Otto as HR Emperor. Or you could rename Sicily with the addition of Alsace to HRE (Staufer) and rename the present HRE to HRE (Welf) as the later interregnum and other HRE dynasties later in the game (in general the elective monarchy) cant be represented in attila mechanics so that it will be one or the other throughout the game anyway. Then Sicily with the guelph, french and aragonese roster could be either a emergent faction or a starting faction with only the island of sicily.
In general I think any sort of integration of the HRE had come to standstill at that point in history already and imperial authority was already very weak (please correct me if I'm wrong) and for the greater part of the game the HRE would be in a interregnum were even "heriditary right" didn't prevail anymore, so especially after Friedrich II its not really that important who is Emperor after all.

One last very minor thing which is related: If the family tree of Sicily shows the Staufers, how will that go together with Guelph troops in the early game and Aragonese and French troops (and more importantly banners ) in the middle and late game. Maybe Sicily could receive a early and high era Swabian retinue (similar to the retinues of the other HRE duchies) to represent Staufer Swabia and also a neutral (not french or aragonese) high and late era King of Sicily bodyguard unit?

Sorry this turned out to be a very long post.

[zsimmortal]

To be nitpicking: According to the table of kings and anti-kings you quote Otto IV. wouldn't be legitimate HR Emperor either at that time, it would be Philip, which is strange because he died in 1208 (error of Mr. Wilson or did I misread the table?). In general Otto's reign was more of an intermezzo, especially after the defeat at bouvine in 1214, for what was a more or less continuous Staufer rule of the HRE since Konrad III. and Friedrich II. ruled the HRE for the next 30 years, so Fawn has a point.
On the other hand as far as I know Friedrich II was mostly in southern Italy even as Emperor and was also more interested in his italian holdings (Palermo court).

Otto started as an anti-king, but once Philip died, he was the only king in Germany and was crowned HRE afterwards, which would be the same scenario as Frederick, who was sole king after Otto was defeated and abdicated and crowned in 1220. There's no error.

A suggestion (for later on in the development of the mod maybe) would be to give Strassbourg to Sicily to represent Staufer presence in the HRE and have the civil war from the start date as Fawn suggests because Alsace was a main domain (next to swabia which cant be represented on the attila map) of the Staufers (Hagenau Pfalz) and thus further weaken Otto as HR Emperor. Or you could rename Sicily with the addition of Alsace to HRE (Staufer) and rename the present HRE to HRE (Welf) as the later interregnum and other HRE dynasties later in the game (in general the elective monarchy) cant be represented in attila mechanics so that it will be one or the other throughout the game anyway. Then Sicily with the guelph, french and aragonese roster could be either a emergent faction or a starting faction with only the island of sicily.
In general I think any sort of integration of the HRE had come to standstill at that point in history already and imperial authority was already very weak (please correct me if I'm wrong) and for the greater part of the game the HRE would be in a interregnum were even "heriditary right" didn't prevail anymore, so especially after Friedrich II its not really that important who is Emperor after all.

As far as I know, our official stance is that there will be no more map changes beyond the ones we have agreed to as of now internally. I don't think warman would like to relegate Sicily to an emergent regardless. It would also not be much of a change unless the central part of the map was split between the two factions in terms of vassals.

One last very minor thing which is related: If the family tree of Sicily shows the Staufers, how will that go together with Guelph troops in the early game and Aragonese and French troops (and more importantly banners ) in the middle and late game. Maybe Sicily could receive a early and high era Swabian retinue (similar to the retinues of the other HRE duchies) to represent Staufer Swabia and also a neutral (not french or aragonese) high and late era King of Sicily bodyguard unit?

Sorry this turned out to be a very long post.

I'll be completely honest about this...I don't think we'll be able to give proper gameplay mechanics regarding this in the early campaign version, and it is so far down the list of priorities for a functional beta campaign that I'm not overly concerned about this for now. We're also limited by what Attila allows us to do, so somewhat incompatible elements may arise later on in a campaign playthrough.

[warman222]

That being said about that last point, keep your eyes peeled on the Sicily thread.