Spear Armed HAs?

[Haze88]

Do these exist in EB2? I loved EB1's Scythian Riders that were armed this way and was disappointed EB2's were bow and sword now.

[Mamlaz]

Apart from two vague reliefs, there is absolutely no evidence of horse archers using lances or spears.

[QuintusSertorius]

There are two, the Aursan and Dahan Riders.

Apart from two vague reliefs, there is absolutely no evidence of horse archers using lances or spears.

The standard steppe rider's panoply was bow, a pair of javelins, spear and an akinakes or two. However, the engine will only allow us to give them two weapons, thus the compromises.

I should note there's documentary evidence of the way the Skythians and others used spears and lances, games they'd play with rings and so on to keep them sharp.

[Mamlaz]

The standard steppe rider's panoply was bow, a pair of javelins, spear and an akinakes or two. However, the engine will only allow us to give them two weapons, thus the compromises.

The standard panoply according to who?

Because Dio writes that the Parthian horse archers used daggers and blades when dismounting to fight the Romans after their arrows proved useless against the testudo.

Again, provide a single primary source describing horse archers carrying lances or spears as sidearms in battle.

I am not interested in quotes of cavalrymen and gentry having skills with both, I am talking about carrying both in battle.


Because not even the Mongols or Manchu are described or depicted as doing so.

I should note there's documentary evidence of the way the Skythians and others used spears and lances, games they'd play with rings and so on to keep them sharp.

Yeah, their lancers.

Just because someone is a steppe warrior does not mean he is automatically a horse archer on the battlefield.

[AnthoniusII]

Apart from two vague reliefs, there is absolutely no evidence of horse archers using lances or spears.

That is completly wrong. In fact Belisarius coppied Sassanid and steppe horse warfare and made his Vucelarii a multi weaponed unit.
They coppied Avar and Saasanid lancers that opened the fight as archers.
Also this testing video will be very usefull.
The horseman is 10th century but you get the idea.

[Mamlaz]

That is completly wrong. In fact Belisarius coppied Sassanid and steppe horse warfare and made his Vucelarii a multi weaponed unit.
They coppied Avar and Saasanid lancers that opened the fight as archers.
Also this testing video will be very usefull.

Please provide a source describing him using lance wielding horse archers.

Youtube videos are interesting, but carry no weight.

Sorry, but this is abject nonsense.

It is not abject nonsense.

The image depicts the horseman using a lance while the bow is sheathed, like literally 100% of all other depictions of bow+lance.

The fact that there is basically not a single image of a horseman shooting a bow while having his lance sheathed before the 18th century should give you a solid warning about the whole argument.

How can the close-range weapon possibly be "primary"? You don't start a battle in amongst the foe, you start it at a distance. The bow is primary, the lance is by necessity secondary.

My point is that those aren't horse archers, but upper class lancers who could also afford a bow and thus carried one.

As I explained above, he is still using the lance in the image, as are all the other depictions of his historical lance buddies.


One would think that a magnificent image such as a horseman riding with a damn lance strapped straight up his saddle would be documented at least some times over the period of 2000 years before the evidence of lance sheaths provided by Cohors_Evocata.

[Rad]

Don't the "Rider" units carry a spear instead of a dagger for the secondary weapon?

[alex33]

Baktrian HA also use lances as secondaries!

[QuintusSertorius]

Reliefs and surviving accounts aren't the only sources:



Here is a battle scene with a horseman, clearly spearing his opponent and carrying a quiver with stringed bow, something one would bring if he quickly needed to fight with both...

Warriors getting ready, carrying both weapons:



Battle scene, horseman spearing, again carrying also a stringed bow:

[Mamlaz]

Yeah, I know of those pieces, there are swarms of pieces depicting lancers having a bow and arrow, but notice how in every single one of them the lance is the primary weapon being held while the bow is in the sheath.

There is a very good reason for that.

What I am saying is that you will find immense issues finding a single source or depiction of an archer sheathing his spear or lance to use that bow.

Horse archers did not carry lances or spears into battle, but the upper class gentry, who were lancers, sometimes had bows as sidearms.

As I said, there is not a single primary source in the past 3000 years that describes horse archers using lances or spears interchangeably with the bow.

To my knowledge that is.

[Rad]

Carrying spears is tricky. You either carry them in hand, have someone else carry them for you, or keep them in a wagon or camp. I have absolutely no knowledge of any spear sheaths (or quivers? lol) existing in history. Maybe something for javelins, but not for full length melee spears. This is why I hate the bow and spear (and lance+javelin combo when it comes cavalry) combination in game. It would be awkward indeed to carry a spear as a secondary weapon.

However, the spear has many benefits over a dagger and to a large extent over swords/axes/maces, and it is not an unreasonable thing to fight with one even if you are primarily an archer.

EB's approach was to give spears to "Rider" units who, if I am not mistaken, represent a somewhat higher, more wealthy class than the regular HAs. So, the existence of spears as secondary weapons ingame could be explained by saying that the "Riders" have a number of people whose job is to supply them with weapons according to tactical need, due to their somewhat elevated status.

[Cohors_Evocata]

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

But the bowmen of the present time go into battle wearing corselets and fitted out with greaves which extend up to the knee. From the right side hang their arrows, from the other the sword. And there are some who have a spear also attached to them and, at the shoulders, a sort of small shield without a grip, such as to cover the region of the face and neck. They are expert horsemen, and are able without difficulty to direct their bows to either side while riding at full speed, and to shoot an opponent whether in pursuit or in flight. They draw the bowstring along by the forehead about opposite the right ear, thereby charging the arrow with such an impetus as to kill whoever stands in the way, shield and corselet alike having no power to check its force. Still there are those who take into consideration none of these things, who reverence and worship the ancient times, and give no credit to modern improvements.

-Procopius, De Bellis 1.1

[Mamlaz]

-Procopius, De Bellis 1.1

Thank you, that is indeed a good example of it perhaps being the case, for "some" as Procopius states.

I also wonder how a spear/lance would be strapped, the only way that I know of historically was the vertical sheath along the horse, which was for short throwing spears aka javelins, also often mentioned with horse archers as a weapon.

Perhaps Procopius speaks of throwing spears.


As a sidenote, his work truly is hilarious at some sections;

"In this action Cutilas was struck in the middle of the head by a javelin, and he kept on pursuing with the javelin still embedded in his head. And after the rout had taken place, he rode into the city at about sunset together with the other survivors, the javelin in his head waving about, a most extraordinary sight."

I've seen East of Rome depict mounted archers with lances strapped to or slung across their backs diagonally, but I can't imagine that'd be ideal for manoeuvrability or formation fighting.

To my knowledge that is utterly ahistorical.

As someone who has an early medieval spear, sheathing it in any way on a horse apart from a javelin bag would be completely futile.

The only other way would be to strap the spear onto multiple strips along the horizontal of the horse, but I know of nothing even remotely suggesting that this was ever done anywhere.

[Rad]

Interesting. How is the spear "attached"?

[Cohors_Evocata]

I would tell you if I knew. The relevant verb is apparently translated as "to be suspended from as well", but it doesn't seem to refer to anything beypnd the riders in general, with no specific body parts or pieces of equipment mentioned. I believe I've seen it mentioned somewhere that cataphracts might have used chains to suspend the Kontos spear to the barding of the horse or to help in managing the weight, but I'm not sure about that. Perhaps they used e.g. leather straps to tie the lance to the side of horse until it was to be used. I've seen East of Rome depict mounted archers with lances strapped to or slung across their backs diagonally, but I can't imagine that'd be ideal for manoeuvrability or formation fighting. All in all, I can't really give a definitive answer.

[Rad]

I've seen East of Rome depict mounted archers with lances strapped to or slung across their backs diagonally

Awww hell no.

[Cohors_Evocata]

Perhaps Procopius speaks of throwing spears.

Can't comment on much, but on this: when Procopius refers to javelins or the throwing of spears he seems to use words like "akontia" or "akontizein". The word used in this case ("doru") seems to refer to spears used for melee or perhaps to spears in general. So while I can't definitively prove he wasn't referring to javelins here (and I was only taking a cursory look at the Greek), why would he not use the more specific "javelin" in that case?

As a sidenote, his work truly is hilarious at some sections;

"In this action Cutilas was struck in the middle of the head by a javelin, and he kept on pursuing with the javelin still embedded in his head. And after the rout had taken place, he rode into the city at about sunset together with the other survivors, the javelin in his head waving about, a most extraordinary sight."

Can't imagine that would have helped in preventing (further) brain damage.

To my knowledge that is utterly ahistorical.

As someone who has an early medieval spear, sheathing it in any way on a horse apart from a javelin bag would be completely futile.

The only other way would be to strap the spear onto multiple strips along the horizontal of the horse, but I know of nothing even remotely suggesting that this was ever done anywhere.

Your last suggestion was more or less what I was thinking of, but I don't know of any examples that would suggest it was done this way.

Awww hell no.

Here's an example (real shame the grand EoR campaign was never finished as far as I know):

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

EDIT: I've found someone only claiming the Strategikon by Maurice refers to spears slung across the back, gonna see if I can quickly find such a citation... EDIT 4: Spoilered now for post size, but check inside.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

EDIT 2: Strategikon, Book I (typing from the Google Books original, page 11): "On horseback on a run he should fire one or two arrows rapidly and put the strung bow in its case, if it is wide enough, or in a half-case designed for this purpose, and then he should grab the spear which he has been carrying on his back. With the strung bow in its case, he should hold the spear in his hand, then quickly replace it on his back, and grab the bow. It is a good idea for the soldiers to practice all this while mounted, on the march in their own country."

EDIT 3: Strategikon, page 12 on Google Books: On cavalry equipment: "They should have hooded coats of mail reaching to their ankles, which can be caught up by thongs and rings, along with carrying cases; helmets with small plumes on top; bows suited to the strenght of each man, and not above it, more in fact on the weaker side, cases broad enough so that when necessary they can fit the strung bows in them, with spare bow strings in their saddle bags; quivers with covers holding about thirty or forty arrows; in their baldrics small files and awls; cavalry lances of the Avar type with leather thongs in the middle of the shaft and with pennons; swords; round neck pieces of the Avar type made with linen fringes outside and wool inside."

[Rad]

Here's an example (real shame the grand EoR campaign was never finished as far as I know):

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I really didn't need to see that
It's even worse than the sword-on-the-back Hollywood thing. Not only would it wobble and swing all around, it would also take up an enourmous amount of space, hit everyone and everything around and be a general pestilence to the wearer. How would one even draw it fast in the heat of the moment?
The depiction I am (unfortunately) seeing is a fantasy solution for a video game. I've got a spear currently mounted on a small shaft, totaling 1.6m. That's short for a spear, but the issues related to transport are already apparent. Now imagine a proper length one strapped to your back, ranging from 1.8 to 2.4m. It wouldn't work. We don't see it in surving art or materials.

Don't even think about strappin lances xD

[Cohors_Evocata]

I really didn't need to see that
It's even worse than the sword-on-the-back Hollywood thing. Not only would it wobble and swing all around, it would also take up an enourmous amount of space, hit everyone and everything around and be a general pestilence to the wearer. How would one even draw it fast in the heat of the moment?
The depiction I am (unfortunately) seeing is a fantasy solution for a video game. I've got a spear currently mounted on a small shaft, totaling 1.6m. That's short for a spear, but the issues related to transport are already apparent. Now imagine a proper length one strapped to your back, ranging from 1.8 to 2.4m. It wouldn't work. We don't see it in surving art or materials.

Don't even think about strappin lances xD

See the quote I just added to my post above, if I can find more at a glance, I'll add them as well.

[Rad]

About the strips thing - it couldn't be set horizontally, the rider would get in the way. BTW, does anyone know where I could see images of ancient/medieval javelin bags? I've yet to see an extant example/depiction in art/reconstruction.