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Thread: Kingdom of Georgia (info and units)

  1. #61
    Tiro
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    Default Re: Kingdom of Georgia (info and units)

    Metsikhovne Units

    These guys were regular troops guarding castles and other strategically important places. They were commoners funded from the state treasury, so they had fine equipment and were well trained soldiers. Their main equipment was - spears, bows, short swords, round shields, chain mail and padded armor.

    Shields
    Metsikhovnes should have large round shields on all tiers. On tier 1 you should use these two types of shield reinforcement:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    Also you can use different paintings with ornaments but don't use too fancy and shiny colors:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    On tier 2 and 3 You should mostly use the same types of shields but you can add some heavily reinforced ones like these:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 




    For archers you should use smaller and less reinforced shields:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 




    Helmets
    They should have Georgian egg-shaped helmets with chain or padded coifs. Tier 1-2 helmets shouldn't have nose covers. Do not use golden colors on Metsikhovnes or other commoners. They should also have chain coifs without helmets.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 





    Body armor

    On tier 1 they should have chain mail or padded tunics:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 




    On tier 2 chain mail and padded armor on the body and also arms in chain:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    This warrior has Rus helmet which was imported in Georgia.




    On tier 3 they could sometimes have plate armor on arms, also their tunics should be different:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    In Medieval Kingdoms mod there are Eastern helmets with spikes on top, as you see below, to represent Muslim influence in 15th century. But i strongly recommend to use only Georgian egg-shaped ones without or with small metal balls on top like in previous manuscript. Later we can discuss why.




    Swords
    Archers should have this type of short swords on all tiers:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 




    You can also add curved swords on tier 3(Actually Georgian curved swords were more or less straight):
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Last edited by Levan; June 27, 2017 at 03:34 PM.

  2. #62

    Default Re: Kingdom of Georgia (info and units)

    Great info Levan! Really appreciated!+rep mate,
    I am interesed also in the rest of georgian units...for example a question, for the basic infantryman in georgian unit roster would be ''karlian spearmen''??and also the unique medium sword/mace unit would be khevsur or highlanders in georgian roster?
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  3. #63
    Tiro
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    Default Re: Kingdom of Georgia (info and units)

    Quote Originally Posted by j.a.luna View Post
    Great info Levan! Really appreciated!+rep mate,
    I am interesed also in the rest of georgian units...for example a question, for the basic infantryman in georgian unit roster would be ''karlian spearmen''??and also the unique medium sword/mace unit would be khevsur or highlanders in georgian roster?
    Thank you very much.
    Basic infantrymen will be "Glekhi Spearmen"(Glekhi - Peasant), they will be lighter than Kartlians are currently, also the last will be removed because they are inaccurate and their name is "unfair" - Kartli is just one region and would be better to use more general names if possible.
    Medium sword unit will be "Mtieli Swordsmen" (Mtieli - Eastern Georgian Highlander), it is basically very similar to Khevsurs just the name is more general.

    I will write about each unit of tier-list which is in the first post of page 2.
    Last edited by Levan; June 27, 2017 at 04:14 PM.

  4. #64

    Default Re: Kingdom of Georgia (info and units)

    Wow. That guy knows his stuff! Bravo!

  5. #65
    paleologos's Avatar You need burrito love!!
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    Default Re: Kingdom of Georgia (info and units)

    Good job everyone here people.

  6. #66

    Default Re: Kingdom of Georgia (info and units)

    Very accurate sources!


  7. #67
    Lifthrasir's Avatar A Clockwork Orange
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    Default Re: Kingdom of Georgia (info and units)

    Below, the last changes to the map:


    Kutaissi has been moved to the other side of the Rioni river. The forests in South-West of Tbilissi and West of Ani have been implemented. The roads are quite accurate according to Levan's input. The passages through Caucasus have been corrected. I will probably adjust slightly the heigths around Rioni river, just to make it look more as a valley

    Below the Caucasus passages zoomed to show that I didn't make them flat. Even if passable, these are still mountaneous areas.



    I guess that should be ok now
    Last edited by Lifthrasir; June 28, 2017 at 11:55 PM.
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  8. #68
    Tiro
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    Default Re: Kingdom of Georgia (info and units)

    This is great! Especially roads and passages, they are set perfectly. And yeah, there should be one big valley around lowland Rioni and forests should be mostly near high mountains.

    The only thing that is kinda missing is the Lesser Caucasus:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    This map shows terrain perfectly:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 




    According to that map, you should apply some high mountains and i suggest to use these 3 free places below. Also, forests should be mostly on their northern slopes. the new forest you added in Armenia near Kura is inaccurate if it isn't on the northern slope of high mountains like i have drawn. Because Southern slopes doesn't have access to Black Sea, so they shouldn't be too green.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 




    These notes are little nitpicking but i promise i won't bother you with the map anymore. Because it will be basically perfect.
    Last edited by Levan; June 29, 2017 at 07:42 AM.

  9. #69
    Lifthrasir's Avatar A Clockwork Orange
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    Default Re: Kingdom of Georgia (info and units)

    Noted about the forests in Armenia.: only on the west side of the mountains.
    I'll see if I can "play" a bit with the map heights again
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  10. #70
    Lifthrasir's Avatar A Clockwork Orange
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    Default Re: Kingdom of Georgia (info and units)

    Alright, here is the last map update.

    - General view: Lesser Caucasus implemented and forests corrected.



    - Kura river: Some heights corrected. The river is going now from top to bottom and doesn't "climb" hills anymore.



    - Rioni river: Some heights adjusted on Caucasus mountains to make it more realistic. It makes a slight valley now.



    Note that I've moved the fruits resource to the East of Tbilissi (close to the lake on Kura river). It doesn't look realistic from my opinion to have them in a mountaneous area. The farming resource in Ani province has been also moved close the the lake of Van for the same reason.
    Hope that this is ok now

    Regarding the settlements, I think that Kuraissi should be changed as large town. It was the capital until 1122 AD. Tbilissi should be left as a citadel but with basic level buildings to reflect the fact that it has been reconquered only 10 years before SSHIP starts.
    Regarding Ani, I'll make some tests to see how it works if given to KoG right at the start.
    Last edited by Lifthrasir; June 29, 2017 at 05:52 PM.
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  11. #71

    Default Re: Kingdom of Georgia (info and units)

    in antique and medieval times west georgia was Very deep forest. The Mongols and Temur Leng were scared. Have not moved.


  12. #72
    Lifthrasir's Avatar A Clockwork Orange
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    Default Re: Kingdom of Georgia (info and units)

    That should be easily implemented
    However, that will be scattered forest for most of the area you have colored in green instead the deep one because otherwise, that area will become impassable.

    I hope that it will be it after that. If not, please let me know about other possible changes on the map to let me do them in 1 time
    It's quite time consumming and there are still many other things to do
    Last edited by Lifthrasir; June 30, 2017 at 02:21 AM.
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  13. #73

    Default Re: Kingdom of Georgia (info and units)

    Woow georgian region will stay perfect/fit! I would like to see the same for Spanish region but now i can not enought time for make some researches due to my real work...
    And about units roster for georgians? I guess that jurcek was interested in reworked them..it would great if someone modder could make more historical and realistic the georgian units in the game
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  14. #74
    Tiro
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    Default Re: Kingdom of Georgia (info and units)

    Resources (the first ones are meant to be main)
    Tbilisi - Wine, gold. (place wine in Kakheti lowlands)
    Kutaisi - Iron, wine, gold.
    Ani - Marble, iron.
    Baku - Fruits.
    (There are more but i don't know list of resources).

    Heavily forested was passages between Kutaisi and Tbilisi. Land around Rioni was used for farming.
    You should move Rioni and Kutaisi to the west a bit(I broke my promise ):
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 




    Everything colored green/white on that map are lowlands. Western Georgia was actually the only exporter of tangerines, oranges and tea in Soviet Union. It isn't as mountainous as you would think. You may imagine Georgia like Scotland but they aren't even close, how we would grow grapes on grassy rocks?
    Last edited by Levan; June 30, 2017 at 05:02 AM.

  15. #75
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    Default Re: Kingdom of Georgia (info and units)

    Ok, here is the proposal:

    Kutaissi and Rioni river will be moved slightly to West.
    All current resources will be removed and will be replaced as folllow:



    From what I could find:
    In Kutaissi province: Iron (grey circle) and wine (purple circle).
    In Tbilissi province: Wine (purple circle) and gold (yellow circle).
    In Ani province: Marble (white circle) and iron (grey circle).
    Forest to be added between Kutaissi and Tbilissi (green area).

    PS: @ j.a.luna, I can do similar stuff for Spain but please, prepare something ready for me in order to save time and to preserve my mental health
    Last edited by Lifthrasir; June 30, 2017 at 07:32 AM.
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  16. #76
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    Default Re: Kingdom of Georgia (info and units)

    Aznauri Units

    Aznauri was a noble military class of Georgia. They were being trained from childhood and their equipment was the best available. They were very similar to Spartans - their only obligation was war, while peasants and commoners were doing everything else. Feudal structure was giving them ability to have equipment even better than the King or Emperor for their troops could afford. Respectively they were the heaviest troops in the kingdom after Tadzreuli but unlike them, Aznaurs were numbered with 4 digits. Main strength of Georgia was mounted shock combat and the backbone was Aznauri class.

    Shields

    Like Monaspa, they should have tear-shaped and round shields, on tiers I and II-III respectively.

    Tear-shaped shields should have 3 types of reinforcement in the middle:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 




    Along with crosses they can be painted like below. Chess table style painting on the fresco probably was inspired by the flag of Queen Tamar.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 




    Round shields of all cavalry, unlike Metsikhovnes, should be medium size. Their round shields had several variations of reinforcement.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 








    Helmets
    While Monaspa had various imported helmets, Aznaurs should have mostly Georgian egg-shaped helmets but some imported ones could be used.
    Unlike Monaspa, Aznaurs should have late period Georgian helmets on tiers II-III. These helmets have cutouts for eyes, so face mask can easily be attached while early period helmets had coifs only covering throat. Also, nose covers were only on late period helmets like below.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Upper two are 12-13th century, and bottom ones are 14-15th century.




    These are helmets for tier II-III:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 








    Body Armor
    Aznaurs should have mostly lamellar but also scale armor:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    12-13th century



    13th century - scale armor.



    Aznauri with imported Rus helmet (12-13th c.)



    15th century noblemen




    Horse Armor
    They should have different types of horse armor. In 12-14th lamellar and in 12-15th centuries chainmail. Lamellar horse armor should cover only front half of the horse mostly.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 




    Weapons

    Aznaurs and all Georgian cavalry fought with long and thick lance like European Knights. They carried both swords and maces as secondary weapon.
    Cavalry long sword:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    Tier 3 curved sword:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    Maces:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    Edit:
    This is 12th century Georgian cavalryman. Every detail he has is taken from several Georgian frescoes. Basically that's how Aznaurs should look, except the horse has only neck armor which was used either by less wealthy warriors or when extra weight of horse armor was needless.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Last edited by Levan; June 30, 2017 at 09:47 AM.

  17. #77
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    Default Re: Kingdom of Georgia (info and units)

    According to the last drawing, the horse hairs and tail should be braided, right?
    Below a pic of an Mamluk horseman from the 15th-16th century. Does the horse armour of Aznaurs have the same lenght or is it a bit shorter (on horse legs)? It looks a bit shorter on Ltd.'s model

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
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  18. #78
    Tiro
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    Default Re: Kingdom of Georgia (info and units)

    @Lift
    Make sure forests you add won't change the roads. You can add them literally everywhere where are no lowlands. Especially on the slopes of Lesser Caucasus between Kutaisi and Tbilisi.

    As for resources, there must have been large sources of gold in the mountains of Caucasus. Greek historian Strabo says that Svanians were getting gold from rivers and also according to some sources, Svanian families were obliged to pay 8 grams of gold to the Russian Empire every year because they had gold for free.
    Iron could also be added in Tbilisi region near the second pass.

    Edit:
    I completely forgot about sheep. Add wool in Eastern Georgian Highlands near the second pass. Also, since we were talking about forests, you can add wood somewhere in forests.
    Lastly, iron should be in Southern Georgia.
    Last edited by Levan; June 30, 2017 at 11:43 AM.

  19. #79
    Tiro
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    Default Re: Kingdom of Georgia (info and units)

    @Lift Crinet should be on the neck, it was guarding from sword swings:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 





    As for horse hair, you are right, it should be braided.

    Unfortunately i can't tell you exact length of horse armor. Probably you should make it the same length Byzantines and other factions in the region have.
    If we compare to this pic, even Ottoman horse armor looks too short.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Last edited by Levan; June 30, 2017 at 09:28 AM.

  20. #80
    Lifthrasir's Avatar A Clockwork Orange
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    Default Re: Kingdom of Georgia (info and units)

    I'll see what I can do about the resources. The idea is to keep them balanced. There's no point of adding to many of them. The other problem seems to be that some of them share the same location or are very close to each other ; something that I can't represent in game.
    No worries about the forests. That should do if I use the scattered one

    About the horse armour length, the main difference between the model I've posted and the one you have just above this post is that in yours, that armour is open in the front. That's not the case in the one I've posted and so, it can't be that long or the horse won't be able to run
    But I would trust more pics from museums than drawings which are subject to the author's interpretation
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