Mod leader of the SSHIP: traits, ancillaries, scripts, buildings, geography, economy.
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If you want to play a historical mod in the medieval setting the best are:
Stainless Steel Historical Improvement Project and Broken Crescent.
Recently, Tsardoms and TGC look also very good. Read my opinions on the other mods here.
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Reviews of the mods (all made in 2018): SSHIP, Wrath of the Norsemen, Broken Crescent.
Follow home rules for playing a game without exploiting the M2TW engine deficiencies.
Hints for Medieval 2 moders: forts, merchants, AT-NGB bug, trade fleets.
Thrones of Britannia: review, opinion on the battles, ideas for modding. Shieldwall is promising!
Dominant strategy in Rome2, Attila, ToB and Troy: “Sniping groups of armies”. Still there, alas!
@Lift Keep Baku as it is because to the south should be Ardabil region which would be better to stay as part of Iran.
And increase Tbilisi region both to the south and East, i have checked in game and Georgia doesn't follow Caucasus mountains as it should. Borders should be on high mountains, white in the game, because that's where Svans and Mtiels are living and passes were controlled by KOG. Even more, large part of Mtiels(Eastern Georgia) are living on the northern slope of Caucasus.
Oh and make white mountains, which are surrounded by two passes, as thick as the rest.
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Lastly, correct the Kura river. It flows from modern Turkey to Azerbaijan through Tbilisi.
Last edited by Levan; June 26, 2017 at 05:52 AM.
@ Levan, thanks for the borders clarifications. I'll update the map accordingly. I'll also see what I can do for the "central mountains" (between the 2 passes).
Noted about Baku, I'll put it back as it was.
@ JoC, can't do it better due to game limits but from what I've used (maps), the junction between Murat and Euphrates is in North/North-East of Malatya (the settlement itself is more or less at the same level as the Tigris source). But the source of the Murat river should be more in North-East, between Aras river and Van lake actually
Last edited by Lifthrasir; June 26, 2017 at 06:27 AM.
Under the patronage of Flinn, proud patron of Jadli, from the Heresy Vault of the Imperial House of Hader
Ok, I understand the junction.
I've now seen you map. A few questions:
· How do I get from Malatya to Qualiqala? Where do I cross Euphratus
· Is there a crossing through Tigris at Amida?
· Can you cross between the source tile of Tigris south so that to get to Van lake (and then avoid Qualiqala while heading to Kutaissi?
@Levan, what do you think about the mountain crossing north of Kutaissi? should it exist?
@Lifth, I've had a question to the EBII team on those passes and they're closed so that the Hayastan (Armenians) don't expand north to the steppes. Don't you fear the same for Georgia?
There's a passage across the Euphrates in East of Malatya. As it already exists in the current game, I didn't show it in my previous map. I only put the one I've created
Anyway, from Malatya to Qalkiqala (or Erzurum) there are 3 possibilities:
1. Going across Euphrates, going North of Tigris source and crossing the Murat river. Then, straight to Qaliqala.
2. Going across Euphrates, going North of Tigris source, following Murat river by its South side, going across Arax river and then back to the West to reach Qaliqala. However, as Murat river will be extended a bit further, I might add another passage on that river
3. Going North and follow Euphrates to the East and go around its source.
About the Caucasus passes, I honestly don't think that 1 or 2 will affect that part of the game actually. The Cuman settlement is too far away in North to have any interest for the AI who focuses in priority to close settlements, rebels if possible, and not too much garrisoned
The point is that if you leave only 1 of them, that will be very easy to be defended if KoG is controlled by a human player (something similar to the southern Polish border, remember ). I don't want that as the human player is smarter than the AI by far.
Under the patronage of Flinn, proud patron of Jadli, from the Heresy Vault of the Imperial House of Hader
Historically there was one main pass on the place where the river comes from. You should correct the river(ideally it's Kura flowing from modern turkey) and on it's place should be the pass. If you decide to add a second pass for gameplay purposes then you should place it to the east. Both will be ok but the second was rarely used because Mtiels were living on both slopes of Caucasus and they managed to keep it closed and for many centuries it remained ignored for being much harder by terrain as well.
Also pass should be very narrow on the map, at least as narrow as the right one currently.
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Edit: In southern Georgia and northern Anatolia there should be heavy forests with narrow roads. Georgians and Greeks used them along with strategic castles very well.
Last edited by Levan; June 26, 2017 at 07:53 AM.
I see that you like to keep me busy with the map
I can change the rivers, the mountains and add the forests. Unfortunately, I have no control on the roads. The game creates them. You can only hope for the best
Edit: Looking through maps, even the Rioni river (the one in Kutaissi) is wrong. The branch going eastward doesn't exist (or not enough important to be on the map).
Last edited by Lifthrasir; June 26, 2017 at 08:14 AM.
Under the patronage of Flinn, proud patron of Jadli, from the Heresy Vault of the Imperial House of Hader
My opinion:
- to save Lifth time: the Darjali pass is more or less ok placed; - if there'd be second pass (I see Lifht being steady on this) then it should be to the other province for the gameplay (to Kutaissi, as it is). But it's not historical, I agree. Or maybe make the pass over Kutaisi more hilly, not like a pass, but as highlands?
- Kura river: Levan i right, but I'm not sure if another river wouldn't make another barrier for the gameplay, hmm. And perhaps it should not be so long - at the sources the rivers are smaller so there's no need to put them on the map, I think.
I'll see what I can do and it will also depend on the results. Sometimes, it's not as expected and it's better to not do the change
Under the patronage of Flinn, proud patron of Jadli, from the Heresy Vault of the Imperial House of Hader
@Lift Sorry, i should have learnt editing the map myself. After you change the borders, i think the roads will automatically change as i have drawn.
No worries, I was just kidding
About the roads, it depends mostly on the nature of the ground, passable or not, relief (plain, hills, mountains), rivers, etc... I don't exactly know how it works but for sure, there's not much I can do to influence the engine
But, let's stay optimistic
Under the patronage of Flinn, proud patron of Jadli, from the Heresy Vault of the Imperial House of Hader
Here are some preview of the map change.
- Kutaissi province:
- Tbilissi province:
- Ani province:
Just to reassure JoC , the 2 next pics are just to show the passable grounds with all the changes above implemented:
I guess that the provinces should be more or less ok now
Next step is to correct the Caucasus mountains, especially the 2 passages and to implement the forests in South of Kulaissi and Tbilissi. I'm encoutering some strange issue as the eparse forest doesn't appear on hilly ground. Not sure what causes that
Under the patronage of Flinn, proud patron of Jadli, from the Heresy Vault of the Imperial House of Hader
Great job Lifth! And about change the castle for a city for KOG? I guess that Levan talked about this some preview post...you plan change this or Georgia will continue have 2 castle?
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That wll be the last step. That's not related to mapping really, but rather to the descr_strat.txt file if I remember correctly. Same about giving or not Ani province to KoG right at the start.
Btw, I have doubt about Kutaissi position. At present, that settlement is on the left side of the Rioni river. However, on some maps, it seems to be on the other side
Anyone to confirm its location?
Under the patronage of Flinn, proud patron of Jadli, from the Heresy Vault of the Imperial House of Hader
Great job Lift!
Kutaisi - I did a small research and found that firstly, in ancient times, it was built on the hill which is on right side of Rioni river(west on the map) but after that the city continued to grow on the valley which is on left side of the river(east on the map). The royal residence was on the old side side until 15th century. But larger part of Kutaisi has been on the left side of Rioni(east) way before because there was valley. So, since Kutaisi should be city, i suggest to place it on eastern side.
Tbilisi - Both citadel and main city was on the right side of Kura river(south on the map).
If you decide to leave one of them as a castle then it should be Tbilisi because it had citadel, just give it large population and good amount of buildings to represent its "cityness".
Lastly, can you place bridges like this? because pass from Armenia directly to Western Georgia is inaccurate. Road should go through Southern Georgia. This is my fault, i know.
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
OK, so Kutaissi is on the right side of Rioni river.
If I get it right, Tbilissi should be on the other side of the Kura river (where the Narikala fortress is located), which is actually bad due to the lack of space. Honestly, I would leave it where that settlement is now.
About the roads and according to your map above, the bridge in Tbilissi should be moved further West and a new one should be created further South. Regarding that one, I'll need to modify the forest between that bridge and Kutaissi. At present, it's impassable. In the hope that the engine will create the right road, I need to change that forest as scattered.
Last edited by Lifthrasir; July 01, 2017 at 04:14 AM. Reason: Typo
Under the patronage of Flinn, proud patron of Jadli, from the Heresy Vault of the Imperial House of Hader
It is so confusing I think you got it right but just for clarification:
In "sides" i meant this: Imagine you are in a boat on the river and you are looking in the direction of the river's flowing. Left from you will be left side of the river, and right from you - right side accordingly. I didn't mean sides on the map, that's why for Rioni left is East and right is West.
Don't remove bridge in Tbilisi, in the idea city is on both sides, so there should be bridge. Just add new if possible.
Ok, so Kutaissi should be on the other side. That should be possible without to much trouble.
Tbilissi will be left untouched. In that case, I'd only add the bridge in South of Kutaissi on the Kura river and would forget the one between Kulaissi and Tbilissi. By re-working the forests slightly, I should get the expected result
Last point, Kutaissi should be changed as large town and Tbilissi stays the same.
Under the patronage of Flinn, proud patron of Jadli, from the Heresy Vault of the Imperial House of Hader
Pour l'instance oui. But in the longer run I think it should undergo a review together with the whole region both from the historical and gameplaye point of view. I'm more a builder than a conqueror type player, so personally I wouldn't mind if Ani is Georgian but all three settlement are much less developed as they're know. I've voiced my opinion before. And if there'll be third settlement for Georgia then lowering the level of the settlements wouldn't cripple the AI.
I wonder if they're mainly Alans or mainly Kypchaks?
There're many reasons to exaggerate. The basic one is your glory - the more enemies you've conquered, the more glory you get (just read the Romans describing the Roman conquests). The second one is just ignorance - how possibly could they know? Third is pattern-replication. The Mongolians knew China. This civilization had a superior agriculture technology which resulted in much greater population numbers then Europe and any part of the world. But the Mongolians thought everywhere was a similar situation.
My guess for the number of inhabitants of 12th century Georgia would be several hundred thousands, given the agricultural technology of the middle ages (low), the climate (perhaps good, but this was the period after the climate change, hmm), the rivers (very good), the prevalence of the mountains (bad), the economic conditions (no integrated market), the political instability (fequent wars and perhaps raids).
But I'd be very, very happy to change my opinion through reading serious research on this matter - not only citing a source but critically reviewing the situation from the point of view of economy, demography, climate.
Besides - I've just played Georgia on Europa Universalis IV (starting 1444). Have you played it? If yes, any thoughts?
Mod leader of the SSHIP: traits, ancillaries, scripts, buildings, geography, economy.
..............................................................................................................................................................................
If you want to play a historical mod in the medieval setting the best are:
Stainless Steel Historical Improvement Project and Broken Crescent.
Recently, Tsardoms and TGC look also very good. Read my opinions on the other mods here.
..............................................................................................................................................................................
Reviews of the mods (all made in 2018): SSHIP, Wrath of the Norsemen, Broken Crescent.
Follow home rules for playing a game without exploiting the M2TW engine deficiencies.
Hints for Medieval 2 moders: forts, merchants, AT-NGB bug, trade fleets.
Thrones of Britannia: review, opinion on the battles, ideas for modding. Shieldwall is promising!
Dominant strategy in Rome2, Attila, ToB and Troy: “Sniping groups of armies”. Still there, alas!
@JoC
Mainly Kypchaks. Alans served only as mercenaries who were called "Roqis Spa". As for Kypchaks, King David IV the Builder settled around 45 thousand men on southern borders of Georgia which were declined after invasions. He needed them to harass other nomads who were constantly raiding the villages. These Kypchaks were given lands, on the other hand, they were obliged to field warriors(Sources say 15000 horse archers and among them best 5000 were Monaspa but of course the numbers are exaggerated). They became Christians and later even Georgians(there is even a unit in custom battles called "Nakivchagari" which means - person who was Kypchak in the past).
Several hundred is way too few. Basically that means only couple hundred thousand for main regions which could form independent kingdoms as in early medieval or later centuries.
There is no way such a small nation would survive so many invasions, intense slave trading by Ottomans in late centuries, intentional genocide by Iranians in 18th c, large scale exiles, etc. If Population was so small in middle ages then most likely Georgia wouldn't exist anymore or at least its population wouldn't be under two million at the start of 19th century when Russian Empire occupied the kingdoms. And this number isn't exaggerated most likely for several reasons.
Hills don't really mean worse agriculture automatically, but mostly you are right. Also i would say that climate is exceptionally good in Georgia, we have Greater Caucasus from the north to stop cold weather of the steppes, Lesser Caucasus to stop heat from the south, we have plenty of rivers and two seas(Black and Caspian) for enough rains and generally water. We have Sub-tropic zone with cold enough winters and hot enough summers. All these makes flora and capabilities of agriculture very diverse.
Unfortunately I have never played Europa Universalis.