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Thread: Kingdom of Georgia (info and units)

  1. #201
    Lifthrasir's Avatar A Clockwork Orange
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    Default Re: Kingdom of Georgia (info and units)

    For the same simple reason as during history: why trying to control a settlement with high unrest which will cost you a lot of money and will requier military resources while to can just leave it representing no threat but giving you a reasonable amount of cash?
    During the beta test I did for MWY months ago, the vassalage was always accepted by the AI. Only MWY can confirm if it can be made more randomly.
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  2. #202
    Tiro
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    Default Re: Kingdom of Georgia (info and units)

    After all it should be a good idea to add that option.
    We haven't talked about this before but Shirvan should be vassal state because in 1124 king David invaded it and after they were paying tributes to Georgia.

    What i have read about population sizes of Tbilisi and Ani from 9th to 12th century, they all vary from 50 to 100 thousand. But the only source that would be trustworthy is research of historians and archaeologists based on the size of city ruins, number of buildings, etc.
    Did you already see the plan of Ani?
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    Last edited by Levan; July 18, 2017 at 06:21 AM.

  3. #203
    Lifthrasir's Avatar A Clockwork Orange
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    Default Re: Kingdom of Georgia (info and units)

    Yes, I've seen that map
    For now, Ani starts with 50,000 inhabitants. I've found mentions that it was a very important strategic and economic place for KoG. After its conquest by David IV, it was garizonned with Aznauri.
    I'm just trying to find out how accurate is this number to see if it would be realistic to decrease that settlement level or not. For instance, I can't make it as large town with 50,000 inhabitants. Same for Tbilisi: it can't be a castle with a similar or bigger amount of inhabitants.

    Regarding the gouvernor in it, is Ivane Orbeli not a better choice? He was the brother of Sumbat previously mentionned for those who cares He was also appointed to such position before to betray KoG. Not to mention that, with his brother Sumbat, he has poisoned David V in 1155, eldest son of Demetre.

    About Shirvan, I'm not sure. Basically, that province was controlled by David IV somehow (by his son in law actually) in 1120 but rebelled in 1126 with the support of the Seljuks. In 1129-30, the province was split into 2 with the Aksu river as border. The North-West part (Christian in majority) was incorporated to KoG while the East part (Muslim in majority) became an autonomous emirate gouverned by Manuchehr III but with the obligation to pay taxes and to supply KoG with soldiers in wartime. In exchange, he had the protection of KoG against his neighbours such as Derbent (vassal to KoG as well). So, yes, it could be implemented as a vassal to be historically accurate. But on the gameplay side, again, it might be too much in favor of KoG

    Edit: More info found about Georgia
    First, let me summarize the settlements hierarchy in SSHIP with population size (unless I've made mistakes):
    For towns:
    T1 - Village - less than 10,000
    T2 - Town - 10,000 to 20,000
    T3 - Large town - 20,000 to 30,000
    T4 - Minor city - 30,000 to 50,000
    T5 - Large city - 50,000 to 125,000
    T6 - Huge city - more than 125,000

    For castles:
    C1 - Motte & bailey
    C2 - Wooden castle
    C3 - Castle
    C4 - Fortress
    C5 - Citadel

    Now, from what I've found from old posts about population in that area:
    Tbilisi: 40,000 (possibly a bit more)
    Kutaisi: 30,000
    Ani: 30,000 to 40,000
    Dvin (not on the map): about 30,000

    That would mean:
    Tbilisi as Fortress
    Kutaisi as minor city
    Ani as minor city
    Last edited by Lifthrasir; July 18, 2017 at 07:53 AM.
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  4. #204
    Tiro
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    Default Re: Kingdom of Georgia (info and units)

    I like those population sizes. If we make further changes it will be just based on guessing unless we somehow come up with serious research.

    If Shirvan as vassal will make Georgia too rich then we can just forget it. But if KOG will get like only 200 gold each turn it might not change much.

    About Orbeli family. First time they are mentioned in the beginning of 12th century, so they most likely were lesser nobles who got promoted by David IV after his repressions of disloyal high nobles. The first Orbeli was Ivane who is mentioned as Amirspasalar already in 1110.
    After that, he is mentioned in 1128 taking castle with his son Sumbat. Most likely Ivane was already quite old and his son was going to replace him soon. So, in 1132 Sumbat already was Amirspasalar or at least was going to become very soon.
    The second Ivane, son of Sumbat, would become Amirspasalar much later(around 1155-1160 probably), so we should add Sumbat and not any Ivane.
    About brother of Sumbat, that was probably translation mistake and they meant son.
    Last edited by Levan; July 18, 2017 at 10:31 AM.

  5. #205
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    Default Re: Kingdom of Georgia (info and units)

    Thanks for correcting this. So it will be Sumbat.

    About vassalage, if I remember correctly, we're talking about something between 1,000 and 2,000 gold for that settlement size.
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  6. #206
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: Kingdom of Georgia (info and units)

    Quote Originally Posted by Lifthrasir View Post
    First, let me summarize the settlements hierarchy in SSHIP with population size (unless I've made mistakes):
    For towns:
    T1 - Village - less than 10,000
    T2 - Town - 10,000 to 20,000
    T3 - Large town - 20,000 to 30,000
    T4 - Minor city - 30,000 to 50,000
    T5 - Large city - 50,000 to 125,000
    T6 - Huge city - more than 125,000

    For castles:
    C1 - Motte & bailey
    C2 - Wooden castle
    C3 - Castle
    C4 - Fortress
    C5 - Citadel

    Now, from what I've found from old posts about population in that area:
    Tbilisi: 40,000 (possibly a bit more)
    Kutaisi: 30,000
    Ani: 30,000 to 40,000
    Dvin (not on the map): about 30,000

    That would mean:
    Tbilisi as Fortress
    Kutaisi as minor city
    Ani as minor city
    This is much more reasonable from what I'd seen until now , even if I keep on thinking that these numbers are inflated, based on the McEvedy's thinking. Note for the posteriority: I'd be inclined to assign Tbilisi to a castle, Kutaisi to a large town and Ani to a minor city. But I concede untill I find any good study on this.

    However, I'd like to recall the issue of Derbent and Baku - we need to nerf them accordingly to the Georgian settlements.

    The sizes of the thresholds of settlements in the SSHIP are as follows:
    huge city (5) 80000
    large city (4) 32000
    citadel (4) 30000
    minor city (3) 12500
    fortress (3) 12000
    large town (2) 5750
    castle (2) 5000

    However, I'm still not sure what exactly do we want to portrait in the SSHIP: population of biggest settlement in the province or population of the whole province? And are theses people or households? The EBII has it clear: households...

    Quote Originally Posted by Lifthrasir View Post
    About vassalage, if I remember correctly, we're talking about something between 1,000 and 2,000 gold for that settlement size.
    Hmmmm, this is a lot, a lot. It's like a having a full province. Actually, it may be even more profitable than occupying the relevant province, if it's far away from the capital and you take corruption in to account.
    Last edited by Jurand of Cracow; July 18, 2017 at 11:14 AM.

  7. #207
    Lifthrasir's Avatar A Clockwork Orange
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    Default Re: Kingdom of Georgia (info and units)

    To answer to your question about population, below a post from Ichon, former researcher and developer of SSHIP:
    Quote Originally Posted by Ichon
    As far as the cities directly representing the population of the whole region... that is tougher. Since many of those cities above aren't on the map and there are many more not listed that aren't on map either. Should we combine their population or just ignore them?

    What about infrastructure? For instance I put Stettin as T1 though I'm sure more people lived there they were quite scattered in small villages and in this era still more than half pagan so the church wasn't there helping to organize. Similarly in Turku the incoming Swedes had to build all the forts and towns themselves- there wasn't much to conquer so the population relatively to other areas was smaller and much less infrastructure.

    (...)

    With consideration of nearby large towns not included and overall population density if there are not many well studied nearby large towns. Certainly almost every region of a size on this map has probably at least 50,000 people in this era but if we consider how effective such population was in supplying the rulers with taxes and manpower its much harder to collect when not centralized/organized and large towns usually can represent some wealth as if there are no large towns there is usually less trade going on.
    I know that MWY have reworked the population numbers but can't say how for sure.

    About Tibilisi, I found the following info:
    Quote Originally Posted by daraca
    (...)The city consists of several parts/quarters: Kala, Tsikhe (Nari-kala), Abanotubani and Seidabadi, Metekhi, Avlabari, Avlabrisubani, Kaloubani and Asparezi and perhaps Salalaki. Total area 105 hectares. The city defended by three forts - Two of them were royal castles: castles Tsikhe / Nari-Kala and Metekhi, fortress Tabori and city walls. The city had five gates (...)
    There were pics in that post but unfortunately they have disapeared and that member is not active on TWC for years
    Anyway, a settlement of that size can hardly be considered as a castle even considering the following fact mentioned again by Ichon:
    Quote Originally Posted by Ichon
    Judging population size only be hectares seems easy to make mistakes as many places such as Rome, Constantinople, Jerusalem, etc had the buildings but not the population to fill them at several times. Writers of the time often spoke of the population being confined to a smaller portion of the city while the rest lay in ruins. Some cities had revivals and others continued to decay but the size in hectares only indicates what the city achieved at its height which could easily be centuries away from the starting time.
    Regarding the vassalage incomes, I just gave the numbers from memory but I might have been too optimistic

    Agree about Baku and Derbent.
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  8. #208
    Tiro
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    Default Re: Kingdom of Georgia (info and units)

    Here is picture by 17th century French traveler. Yes it is a few centuries off but i doubt city walls got changed in that period. On the other hand, for some reason the author didn't include part of the city on the left side of Kura river like Metekhi. Lifth Could you translate that list for us?
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 




    Here is the whole city(at its height).
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    1)Nari-Kala citadel
    2)Metekhi castle
    3)Old city(lets not go in details)
    4)Main city
    5)Left side of the river



    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Last edited by Levan; July 18, 2017 at 02:28 PM.

  9. #209

    Default Re: Kingdom of Georgia (info and units)

    new shields



















    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



















    shields Color


    Last edited by Khevsur; April 20, 2018 at 04:35 AM.

  10. #210
    Lifthrasir's Avatar A Clockwork Orange
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    Default Re: Kingdom of Georgia (info and units)

    @ Levan, below the translation of what I could read:

    A. Fortress
    B. Bishopric named Sion - possibly related to Sioni cathedral
    C. Monastery of the Pasha
    D. Saint Croix or Holy Cross
    E. Church and palace of Cat-something (hard to read)
    F. White building or church of Rey or Ry-something (can’t read)
    G. New building
    H. Church of Mognay (hard to read)
    I. Church of Bethlehem
    K. Church of the Separation (guess that’s the right translation)
    L. Mosque
    M. The Capuchins (religious order - might be another monastery)
    N. Palace of the Prince
    O. Grand or great bazaar
    P. Public shops
    Q. Palace of the Caket (not sure as hard to read) viceroy
    R. Garden of the Prince
    S. Square or place of the Prince
    T. Place d’Armes – can be translated by arms/weapons place/square
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  11. #211
    Tiro
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    Default Re: Kingdom of Georgia (info and units)

    E. It must be residence of Catholicos(leader of Georgian or generally Orthodox church).
    K. That should be church of ascension(after resurrection of Christ).
    Q. Palace of the Kakheti viceroy.
    Thank you.

  12. #212
    Lifthrasir's Avatar A Clockwork Orange
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    Default Re: Kingdom of Georgia (info and units)

    About K., could it be the church of the Asumption
    ...and you're welcome
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  13. #213
    Tiro
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    Default Re: Kingdom of Georgia (info and units)

    Could be but Sioni is already cathedral of dormition(assumption).
    Last edited by Levan; July 19, 2017 at 05:36 AM.

  14. #214

    Default Re: Kingdom of Georgia (info and units)















    Last edited by Khevsur; April 20, 2018 at 04:40 AM.

  15. #215

    Default Re: Kingdom of Georgia (info and units)

    Last edited by Khevsur; July 22, 2017 at 12:01 PM.

  16. #216
    Lifthrasir's Avatar A Clockwork Orange
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    Default Re: Kingdom of Georgia (info and units)

    Nice paint
    And I've seen that video you linked but can't remember when and where

    Anyway, I'm wondering if the banner you painted above (backgroung - on the right) is accurate
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  17. #217

    Default Re: Kingdom of Georgia (info and units)

    new shields





















    Last edited by Khevsur; April 20, 2018 at 04:46 AM.

  18. #218
    Tiro
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    Default Re: Kingdom of Georgia (info and units)

    @Lifth that flag was reconstructed according to written sources. Unfortunately there are no visual proofs. I will post about 12-15th century Georgian flags some time later.

  19. #219
    Lifthrasir's Avatar A Clockwork Orange
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    Default Re: Kingdom of Georgia (info and units)

    That would be great. Thanks Levan.

    Meanwhile, I have reworked a bit the family tree. On top, there are David the Builder and his 2nd spouse Gurandukht, both dead (1125 for David and I put 1130 for his spouse as i couldn't find an "official date).
    That allows me to put Demetre (King) and Vakhtang (his half brother) as the 2nd generation. I know that Demetre's mother was the 1st spouse of David but I can't do it better with the M2 engine. Vakthang is 14 years old (which is accurate) and I gave him the usurper and disloyal traits. He's in Ani at the start with the settlement ready to riot. I think that it is quite accurate considering the engine limitations.
    The other family members (David, George and Rusudan, children of Demetre) stay unchanged.
    I know that we talked to put Sumbat Orbeli in Ani but that guy wasn't a family member. Considering that Vakhtang died in 1138 after his plot attempt (for which he got blind and was put in jail), he appears as a better option.

    However, I still have an issue to fix: as David the Builder and David, son of Demetre, have the same first name and family name, that causes a ctd if both implemented in game (David Bagrationi appears twice in the family tree and that seems to be the cause of the ctd). For now, I'm using another first name for David the Builder but I'm looking for a better solution to fix that issue
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  20. #220
    Tiro
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    Default Re: Kingdom of Georgia (info and units)

    Vakhtang lost eyes in 1130 when he was child, just 12 years old. Actually he was used by high nobles to somehow justify their revolt. So, lets forget him because adding him is too unhistorical.
    Instead, the elder son David should be the disloyal family member. He revolted two times at last.

    And why can't we add Sumbat? He was major political figure who killed David. Imagine doing the same in the game.
    Last edited by Levan; July 22, 2017 at 07:59 PM.

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