Page 10 of 23 FirstFirst 1234567891011121314151617181920 ... LastLast
Results 181 to 200 of 450

Thread: Kingdom of Georgia (info and units)

  1. #181
    jurcek1987's Avatar Vicarius
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    Slovenia
    Posts
    2,535

    Default Re: Kingdom of Georgia (info and units)

    Ok I'll reserve that lamellar texture for other units, change swords and trousers. Those horses are vanilla, just ignore them for now. Which faces are supposed to be kipchak? They're all from Rusichi. I'll see what I can do about the clothes

  2. #182
    Tiro
    Join Date
    Jun 2015
    Location
    Georgia
    Posts
    245

    Default Re: Kingdom of Georgia (info and units)

    I was hoping you wouldn't ask that question. Some say that Kipchaks were Mongoloid, others say they were blonde people. The third group says that Cumans were Mongoloids and Kipchaks blonde Caucasoids. So, these two tribes after living together for centuries assimilated each other and became Mongoloids with sometimes blonde hair. 5 out of 6 skulls of Cumans found in Europe look like Mongoloids, on the other hand, the 6th Caucasoid one was Chieftain's skull. So, there is quite a mess.
    Spoiler for reconstruction of Cuman skull


    Last edited by Levan; July 14, 2017 at 06:56 PM.

  3. #183

    Default Re: Kingdom of Georgia (info and units)

    How about Cuman faces from Rusichi, but with lighter skin and blonde?
    And also, should an extra accessories like bags and pouches added too? because i like that on Rusichi-made units
    Last edited by umbracatervae777; July 14, 2017 at 10:58 PM.

  4. #184
    jurcek1987's Avatar Vicarius
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    Slovenia
    Posts
    2,535

    Default Re: Kingdom of Georgia (info and units)

    Yeah I can add one of those faces. As for the bags and stuff, I like those too and will add them to foot units. I didn't plan to add them to cavalry units because Rusichi horses carry them too (though as you can see this particular unit still uses vanilla mounts)

  5. #185
    Tiro
    Join Date
    Jun 2015
    Location
    Georgia
    Posts
    245

    Default Re: Kingdom of Georgia (info and units)

    Horse neck armor:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



  6. #186
    Lifthrasir's Avatar A Clockwork Orange
    Patrician Artifex Content Staff Moderation Mentor

    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Dunkirk - France
    Posts
    12,987
    Blog Entries
    4

    Default Re: Kingdom of Georgia (info and units)

    Kahvipannu did something similar for the horses used by some Muslim units (Mounted Ghulams if I remember correctly).
    Under the patronage of Flinn, proud patron of Jadli, of the Imperial House of Hader


    - Results published

  7. #187
    Tiro
    Join Date
    Jun 2015
    Location
    Georgia
    Posts
    245

    Default Re: Kingdom of Georgia (info and units)

    Another type of shield reinforcement:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    Paintings:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 





    P.S.
    To be continued...
    Last edited by Levan; July 23, 2017 at 12:58 PM.

  8. #188
    Lifthrasir's Avatar A Clockwork Orange
    Patrician Artifex Content Staff Moderation Mentor

    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Dunkirk - France
    Posts
    12,987
    Blog Entries
    4

    Default Re: Kingdom of Georgia (info and units)

    This type of shield should be all in metal (no wood in it), right?
    Under the patronage of Flinn, proud patron of Jadli, of the Imperial House of Hader


    - Results published

  9. #189
    Tiro
    Join Date
    Jun 2015
    Location
    Georgia
    Posts
    245

    Default Re: Kingdom of Georgia (info and units)

    No, these shields are wooden covered with leather like all others. Only that middle thing and rim are metal, basically what you see golden is metal.
    Full metal shields were used only from 16th century, at least in Georgia.
    Also, you should note that these drawings are painter's interpretation, even though they are based on frescoes. So, the shields you create should rarely have this fancy rim, on the other hand, you shouldn't leave shield without rim like in the first drawings Khevsur posted.
    Use rims below for reference. You can use fancy rim in rare cases, like on generals, officers, sometimes guards.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    Also, i checked those new Byzantine units and i see you guys like scratches. Since Georgian shields are mostly covered with leather, you should give them "shape" of leather accordingly, not scratched wood.

  10. #190

    Default Re: Kingdom of Georgia (info and units)

    shield

    Last edited by Khevsur; April 20, 2018 at 04:34 AM.

  11. #191
    Lifthrasir's Avatar A Clockwork Orange
    Patrician Artifex Content Staff Moderation Mentor

    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Dunkirk - France
    Posts
    12,987
    Blog Entries
    4

    Default Re: Kingdom of Georgia (info and units)

    Just a quick update: I've added Ani to KoG. The Armenian rebel army originally in that settlement has been moved to the West (on the road going to Erzurum). I've created a new general named Vaxtang for now but he will obviously become Vakhtang (Demetre half brother).
    The untrest in Ani is quite high at the start and rioting seems to happen quickly. Vaxtang/Vakhtang is supposed to be disloyal. However, in my quick test, he becomes loyal quickly. I need to find out how to correct that. The other point I need to correct as well is to integrate him in the family tree (as for now, he doesn't appear in it).
    Once these "issues" are fixed, I'll make some tests to see how it works on the gameplay side.
    Under the patronage of Flinn, proud patron of Jadli, of the Imperial House of Hader


    - Results published

  12. #192
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Cracovia
    Posts
    3,613

    Default Re: Kingdom of Georgia (info and units)

    In which way Vakhtang is recovering his loyalty? it's "near loyalty" I suppose - prompted by the vicinity of the ruler and the capital?
    Are you making him a usurper?

    I'm in trying to find among specialists in Armenia any hint for a scientific study on those 50-100 thousands inhabitants of Ani in 12-13 century. Nothing found, all seems to be based on one medieval source, quoted always in the descriptions, eg. in the expositions of History Museum of Yerevan.

    If Ani is given to KoG (what I'm still sceptical), are we going to nerf the other Georgian settlements? There's a danger that KoG will develop to a superpower in the Middle east very fast. Having 3 provinces at the beginning including a Citadel and Minor Cities (?), the expansion to the lands never taken by KoG is imminent. This is going to be very unhistorical, I suppose, even disregarding my arguments that there was no economic base for having such big settlments at that time. (and it's also going to be bad for the gameplay: a player wouln't have to make an effort to upgrade the settlements).

  13. #193
    Lifthrasir's Avatar A Clockwork Orange
    Patrician Artifex Content Staff Moderation Mentor

    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Dunkirk - France
    Posts
    12,987
    Blog Entries
    4

    Default Re: Kingdom of Georgia (info and units)

    Yes, I'm planning to nerf Tbilisi to represent the past 25-30 years of war done by David IV. I might do the same for Ani. About Vakhtang, I guess that I haven't given him the right traits at the start
    About the gameplay, that's why I mentioned that it needs to be tested

    But if you have another suggestion/idea/option to propose for Ani JoC, don't hesitate to let me know. Nothing is firmly decided for Ani yet.

    Edit: on a 2nd thought, but I will need MWY's input on that, the solution could be to start as explained above but with the vassalage option coming straight at the 2nd turn. That means while KoG is controlled by the human player, you can refuse it and keep the settlement but you would have to face high unrest, possibly some rioting. If you accept, Ani becomes independant but gives you an extra incomes unless/until it is conquered by another faction. Thought on that?
    Last edited by Lifthrasir; July 18, 2017 at 02:24 AM.
    Under the patronage of Flinn, proud patron of Jadli, of the Imperial House of Hader


    - Results published

  14. #194
    Tiro
    Join Date
    Jun 2015
    Location
    Georgia
    Posts
    245

    Default Re: Kingdom of Georgia (info and units)

    Do not add Vakhtang, he lost eyes in childhood. Instead add Sumbat Orbeli(not family member) as i said before.
    As a disloyal general you can have elder son David since he revolted in 1130 and 1154.

    One thing i don't get guys, if other factions have 5, 10, 15 starting regions then why 3 will make Georgia unbalanced? Btw if Georgia expands to shirvan, Derbent, Erzurum and north-western Persia it won't be unhistorical, actually that's how it should be. And i doubt Georgia on AI will expand further If we look at the neighbors.

    Could you please also tell me why you disagree Ani being part of Georgia? Yes it was rebellious but if we make the region independent for that then idk, you should take a few regions from Byzantine Empire, etc.
    Lastly, JoC you say there was no economic base but your main argument is that there are highlands which can be argument only in some cases. Seriously, there was economic base in Mongol steppes? How did persians invade the middle East, there was no economic base i guess. Oh and those Greeks, i mean Macedonians, there was no any base except metals, they even lacked fresh water and still somehow managed to invade the known world. There was huge economic base in Egypt but somehow after the invasion of Sea peoples they stayed in shadows forever. Can you tell me what i am missing?
    In my honest opinion, economic base was the main thing which prevented and will prevent expansions. Except very few cases, All i know in history is like this: one cultivator nation gets invaded by nomads or peoples with no property, then these people become cultivator and they get invaded by other nomads which were on the level of barter, then comes another one, they think people who eat food cultivated on earth are animals, and this continues for centuries if not millenniums. What economic base are we talking about? Do you think economic base is even a bit important for high population? You can take modern world for example, look at India...
    Last edited by Levan; July 18, 2017 at 03:48 AM.

  15. #195
    Lifthrasir's Avatar A Clockwork Orange
    Patrician Artifex Content Staff Moderation Mentor

    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Dunkirk - France
    Posts
    12,987
    Blog Entries
    4

    Default Re: Kingdom of Georgia (info and units)

    I read that Vakhtang lost his eyes after the plot against Demetre during the 1130's. He actually died in prison shortly after that obviously in 1138 AD. David, son of Demetre, is already in game , same for George
    So Sumbat Orbeli might e a good option.

    Adding Ani to KoG right at the start can make it overpowered because you'll get a citadel (Tbilisi), a large town (Kutaisi) and a large city (Ani). That gives at least 2 settlements almost at the top level of development, meaning good economy, so good incomes and so easy and quick access to good units. Beside that, there's no strong faction just beside KoG able to counter-balance their development/expansion. So yes, basically, KoG will expand as during real history. However, I can bet that it will carry on throught Persia and throught East Anatolia before to go South, throught Syria. Seljuks might hold it but for sure Zengids and KoJ won't.
    So to simplify, I'm pretty sure that for the time Mongols come, you'll get Seljuks or Abbasids, KoG and Fatimids sharing the whole Middle East. Zengids and KoJ will vanish and possibly Rūm too if not able to take over on ERE.
    That scenario will repeat again and again like it did by the past with Almoravids conquering the whole Spain and Southern part of France without any strong opposition before we removed the land bridge in Gibraltar. That's still no perfect but at least, things don't happen in the same way in each game.
    If you refer to HRE who starts with numerous provinces, its central location in Europe makes it weak in the long term as surrounded by many other factions. Same for ERE somehow. Soon or later, these factions get attacked on several fronts which is difficult to manage for the AI.

    So to go back to Ani, I'm not against adding it to KoG but it has to be done accurately and without "sacrifying" the gameplay.
    Last edited by Lifthrasir; July 18, 2017 at 03:32 AM.

  16. #196
    Tiro
    Join Date
    Jun 2015
    Location
    Georgia
    Posts
    245

    Default Re: Kingdom of Georgia (info and units)

    I suggest the following:
    Leave Tbilisi as Citadel but very undeveloped, i mean it may have many buildings but low level. Give Kutaisi Stone walls but leave it undeveloped too as we said before.
    And there is no need for Ani being large city, make it minor city. It will have stone walls still, right?
    So, giving the settlements historical "look" but at the same time leaving them quite undeveloped could be a good solution. KOG may struggle recruiting large or capable stacks at the start so other factions will get a chance to expand before Georgia tries to overrun them.
    Also, AI KOG may lose his starting armies at the start fighting rebels in Ani region, so after that he will be "stuck" until he builds economics and capable armies which may take more than other factions.
    Last edited by Levan; July 18, 2017 at 03:39 AM.

  17. #197
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Cracovia
    Posts
    3,613

    Default Re: Kingdom of Georgia (info and units)

    Quote Originally Posted by Levan View Post
    One thing i don't get guys, if other factions have 5, 10, 15 starting regions then why 3 will make Georgia unbalanced? Btw if Georgia expands to shirvan, Derbent, Erzurum and north-western Persia it won't be unhistorical, actually that's how it should be. And i doubt Georgia on AI will expand further If we look at the neighbors.

    Could you please also tell me why you disagree Ani being part of Georgia? Yes it was rebellious but if we make the region independent for that then idk, you should take a few regions from Byzantine Empire, etc.
    In general, I'm in favour of introducing a strong rebelion element (like usurper) for any faction with 10+ provinces. Actually, it's what I've seen in my Poland game: the big Kiev faction broke twice in 150 years into rebellion and lost a few provinces each time. I don't know if this happens with the Seljucts as well (what would be very historical, I think) or with the Byzantines (what would be extremely historical - the Broken Crescent has an artificial script for it).

    And yes, me - personally - I think we should take some provinces from Byzantine or HRE. With the new MWY's system of vassalage this could have been done - if the system would be properly used by the AI (I've got no clue if it would).

    Quote Originally Posted by Levan View Post
    Lastly, JoC you say there was no economic base but your main argument is that there are highlands which can be argument only in some cases. Seriously, there was economic base in Mongol steppes? How did persians invade the middle East, there was no economic base i guess. Oh and those Greeks, i mean Macedonians, there was no any base except metals, they even lacked fresh water and still somehow managed to invade the known world. There was huge economic base in Egypt but somehow after the invasion of Sea peoples they somehow stayed in shadows forever. Can you tell me what i am missing?
    In my honest opinion, economic base was the main thing which prevented and will prevent expansions. Except very few cases, All i know in history is like this: one cultivator nation gets invaded by nomads or peoples with no property, then these people become cultivator and they get invaded by other nomads which were on the level of barter, then comes another one, they think people who eat food cultivated on earth are animals, and this continues for centuries if not millenniums. What economic base are we talking about? Do you think economic base is even a bit important for high population? You can take modern world for example, look at India...
    That's an interesting question, I need some time to write an answer (and now I'd prefer to visit Matendaran ;-)

    Quote Originally Posted by Levan View Post
    I suggest the following:
    Leave Tbilisi as Citadel but very undeveloped, i mean it may have many buildings but low level. Give Kutaisi Stone walls but leave it undeveloped too as we said before.
    My case is: if you make it Citidel then you remove the need for the player to make a real efford to upgrade the settlement. It's indeed the goal of having the high-chivalry general (often FL) to make a high jump over the threshold. I'd go for making Tbilisi a castle. The only question is if the AI would be able to crank out enough troops for making Georgia meaningful or to upgrade to a fortress or citadel.

    Quote Originally Posted by Levan View Post
    And there is no need for Ani being large city, make it minor city. It will have stone walls still, right?
    Yep, I think it's legitimate. This was of course a great city in the 12 century. Again - for gameplay leave it underdeveloped to allow the player to have fun of building.

    Kutaisi - I'd go for a large town.
    Last edited by Jurand of Cracow; July 18, 2017 at 03:59 AM.

  18. #198
    Tiro
    Join Date
    Jun 2015
    Location
    Georgia
    Posts
    245

    Default Re: Kingdom of Georgia (info and units)

    Oh citadel is the last upgrade, i confused it with fortress. Then i am for Tbilisi being fortress. I guess castle doesn't fit in historical accuracy. Tbilisi should have the largest population in Caucasus and should be more developed than others. And i am against having Kutaisi with unhistorical wooden walls.

  19. #199
    Lifthrasir's Avatar A Clockwork Orange
    Patrician Artifex Content Staff Moderation Mentor

    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Dunkirk - France
    Posts
    12,987
    Blog Entries
    4

    Default Re: Kingdom of Georgia (info and units)

    Kutaisi is already a large town in my map update. I just gave it the city level to get the stone walls. But except the stone walls and the bath house, all the other buildings (already built) are at the large town level as explained in that post
    Note that the dirty roads won't be in game at the start. I've put them in the pics posted above that post to show how they will look like.

    Regarding Tbilisi and Ani, any sources or records about their population size in 1132 would help (if there's any quite accurate).

    Edit: I tend to agree to have Tbilisi as a fortress instead of a citadel. Regarding Ani, it depends on the population size. Hence my question above
    Last edited by Lifthrasir; July 18, 2017 at 04:21 AM.
    Under the patronage of Flinn, proud patron of Jadli, of the Imperial House of Hader


    - Results published

  20. #200
    Tiro
    Join Date
    Jun 2015
    Location
    Georgia
    Posts
    245

    Default Re: Kingdom of Georgia (info and units)

    Well, AI won't have that option, so it will have to defeat rebels anyway right? As for the player, why a player would accept small payments and give up a city when he/she has ambitions to build a large empire?

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •