I've quite often come across miniatures and period images of figures clad in the best armor of the day, presumably men at arms or nobility, using short two handed spears. And despite the prevalence of these images, I don't think I've ever once seen a modern representation of such a soldier. Be it in movies, video games, or even nonfiction works on medieval warfare, this type of soldier seems to be totally ignored.
Can anyone offer an explanation to me as to why this phenomenon of short, two handed spears in the hands of heavily armored soldiers has been ignored? What am I missing?
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Admittedly, I would accept the argument that some represent pikes. But surely that cannot be all of them? They are represented as being very short, whereas representations of pikes are often shown to be very long and obviously pikes:
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Further, I think it's clear they are not representing poleaxes or other more conventional knightly weapons.
Note: Credit goes to Kjertesvein for having dug up those images ages ago.
Last edited by AlexiosThe1st; June 15, 2017 at 07:57 AM.
There are many mentions in period sources of knights shortening their lances to fight on foot. In the game, pikemen or heavy spearmen pretty much fill this role. I paid homage to this in the Kingdom of Jerusalem roster with the dismounted poulain knights, since it was such a vital part of western tactics in the middle east, as mentioned by Joinville and others.
Amd maybe to those rear guard shovk troops with poleaxes as well... protecting the pure shock troops with poleaxes, hreataxes and maces
Seems like a good strategy, tactic and battle formation against all type of attacks, frontal, rear and flank including missile protection from the back... I don't remember seeing any rear guard troops like... never... would be a great addition... rear guard and pure reserve troops
There are many mentions in period sources of knights shortening their lances to fight on foot. In the game, pikemen or heavy spearmen pretty much fill this role. I paid homage to this in the Kingdom of Jerusalem roster with the dismounted poulain knights, since it was such a vital part of western tactics in the middle east, as mentioned by Joinville and others.
Well that's more or less my point. There's many mentions and representations in period but very little in modern works.
And I would argue that they serve a slightly different role (not to mention the artwork shows them shieldless in the West), at least in terms of the campaign. They differ from shielded spearmen in their ability to sucessfully combat infantry (like halberdiers and pikemen). They differ from pikes and halberds, however, in that they fill a similar role but at an earlier period and with better armor. And unlike pikes they would not drop spears in melee, and unlike halberds they'd have a wee bit longer reach. They could be a half-way compromise in game. They lack the reach of pikes but they won't drop in melee, and they lack the damage of halberds but with better reach.
Either way, it seems odd to me that a style of combat with rich representation in period art is not well represented in this game (or any game that I know of). Nobility with short spears could, I think, add to the rosters. But really what I'm asking is why haven't they been added to Western rosters? Why have we somewhat ignored their existence? Is it simply because they'd be redundant with other unit types?
Last edited by AlexiosThe1st; June 15, 2017 at 04:09 PM.
Well that's more or less my point. There's many mentions and representations in period but very little in modern works.
And I would argue that they serve a slightly different role (not to mention the artwork shows them shieldless in the West), at least in terms of the campaign. They differ from shielded spearmen in their ability to sucessfully combat infantry (like halberdiers and pikemen). They differ from pikes and halberds, however, in that they fill a similar role but at an earlier period and with better armor. And unlike pikes they would not drop spears in melee, and unlike halberds they'd have a wee bit longer reach. They could be a half-way compromise in game. They lack the reach of poles but they won't drop in melee, and they lack the damage of halberds but with better reach.
Either way, it seems odd to me that a style of combat with rich representation in period art is not well represented in this game (or any game that I know of). Nobility with short spears could, I think, add to the rosters. But really what I'm asking is why haven't they been added to Western rosters? Why have we somewhat ignored their existence? Is it simply because they'd be redundant with other unit types?
Ok. Maybe I misunderstood what you were talking about. I think redundancy is part of it. Spears were probably the main weapon for most soldiers for most of the middle ages, but unfortunately most units in this game can only have one weapon, and having a bunch of spear units would be boring. Also, spears just don't have the same appeal that other weapons do. I think a lot of people don't realize just how sexy they can be
Ok. Maybe I misunderstood what you were talking about. I think redundancy is part of it. Spears were probably the main weapon for most soldiers for most of the middle ages, but unfortunately most units in this game can only have one weapon, and having a bunch of spear units would be boring. Also, spears just don't have the same appeal that other weapons do. I think a lot of people don't realize just how sexy they can be
Honestly, my dude, I have a lot of respect for the spear. It's not any fun to deal with a good spearman.
Regardless of how sexy they may or may not be, I still think there's a valid, historical argument and a gameplay argument to be made for nobility with 2-handed spears. The redundancy is a fine counter point, but then there's already a ton of redundancy within this mod (which isn't a bad thing; variety for the sake of variety or historical accuracy is IMO a good thing). Why have a faction get access to Swiss pikemen if they've already a native pike unit? Well it's historically relevant and roster variety is a desirable thing. So I get the redundancy argument but I hardly think it makes a strong enough case to ignore 2-handed spear men-at-arms units.
I really wish I brought this up much earlier in the dev cycle.
Last edited by AlexiosThe1st; June 15, 2017 at 04:29 PM.
Yeah well they will have, hopefully, Flemish, Tercio and the coloured silly looking pants wearing guys from Germany pikemen... forgot their name... as well...
In this mod, there are only few unit that are in this category: the Mercenary Italian Spearmen (and Atgeir Leidangr, but the animation fix haven't been released yet)
Bulgarian Guard and Danish Castle Guard use 2h spear too, but as of now they're using falx chopping animation rather than spear animation.
For the longer reach than halberd and higher dmg than 1h spear/longspear, there's mk_lance in the melee_weapon table (or can be added new one if needed)
In this mod, there are only few unit that are in this category: the Mercenary Italian Spearmen (and Atgeir Leidangr, but the animation fix haven't been released yet)
Bulgarian Guard and Danish Castle Guard use 2h spear too, but as of now they're using falx chopping animation rather than spear animation.
For the longer reach than halberd and higher dmg than 1h spear/longspear, there's mk_lance in the melee_weapon table (or can be added new one if needed)
I'm specifically referring heavy men at arms/knightly infantry with two-handed spears. Are not the three units you list all using pole arms of a different stripe? So not spears specifically but halberds and other less strictly thrusting weapons?
In Western Europe I've just started noticing a large volume of images of knightly infantry using two-handed spears in the mid 14th century. The question I'm posing is that why aren't these portrayed in modern works, and more poignantly, is there a reason it's not in this mod? I ask this question not to be an ass, I'm genuinely curious.
I brought in the shorter than pike, longer than halberd point only to argue they aren't totally redundant with pikes or halberds from a game play perspective. That we've similar types of units (those that you list), only furthers this point that they've a role to fill.
The question is how to implement such a thing, what mechanics are we talking about that can do the things to best represent it in a genuine manner as to make it a fun experience and true to history? That's a good question.
One of the things I've been thinking about with the upcoming Kesja weapon (I type, or see the quote in my description on use), at least in Tier 1, is to give the weapon a pike stance by default, but that you can swap it into more conventional hewing weapon if you toggle it off. According to the sources, the reach of Kesjurlag (a term used for Norse 12-13 century pike formation) is further than common hewing weapons, but shorter than missiles. I think some of the halberds have this mechanic already, the forward trusting motion, but the Kesjur would have better reach which is closer to the images shown in OP. The blades could be up to 66 cm and the socket was quite rigid and long, according extent survivals. Mind you, Kesjur in particular were weapons exclusively described in the hands of professional or semi professional warriors in large scale battles, not farmers or volunteers pressed into battle, meaning armour will be involved.
As we move into Tier 2: This image, conjured up by Slytacular, point to spears which mirror what the Atgeirr spears looks like, Type D spears, in combination with other polearms. The men who use them are men-at-arms.
We've not really talked about how the men are going fight and in what game play stance they'll be using, such as the things YHW mentions. If anyone have suggestions on the execution of things...
~Wille
Thorolf was thus armed. Then Thorolf became so furious that he cast his shield on his back, and, grasping his halberd with both hands, bounded forward dealing cut and thrust on either side. Men sprang away from him both ways, but he slew many. Thus he cleared the way forward to earl Hring's standard, and then nothing could stop him. He slew the man who bore the earl's standard, and cut down the standard-pole. After that he lunged with his halberd at the earl's breast, driving it right through mail and body, so that it came out at the shoulders; and he lifted him up on the halberd over his head, and planted the butt-end in the ground. There on the weapon the earl breathed out his life in sight of all, both friends and foes. [...] 53, Egil's Saga
I must tell you here of some amusing tricks the Comte d'Eu played on us. I had made a sort of house for myself in which my knights and I used to eat, sitting so as to get the light from the door, which, as it happened, faced the Comte d'Eu's quarters. The count, who was a very ingenious fellow, had rigged up a miniature ballistic machine with which he could throw stones into my tent. He would watch us as we were having our meal, adjust his machine to suit the length of our table, and then let fly at us, breaking our pots and glasses.
- The pranks played on the knight Jean de Joinville, 1249, 7th crusade.
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I suppose what I had in mind at the time of posting was something similar to the "menaulatoi" from Stainless Steel for M2TW. And this is more or less how they're shown in the period artwork. Very densely packed, heavily armored soldiers with moderately lengthed spears in 2 hands.
How this would translate into Attila I haven't the foggiest.
I think dismounted knights with shortened lances would be a really cool addition to the game that could set the factions that have access to them apart from the typical poleaxe wielding dismounted knights that we see with most western factions. In terms of gameplay I would imagine them to have a range slightly longer than halberds, but significantly shorter than pikes. I think they should also generally have all around high stats as they are knights with a lifetime of training, but lack the formations that professional pikemen can use, as this is not generally their primary fighting style and they probably lack formation training.
To represent their potential... and for them to reach their maximum potential
As we did in Roma Surrectum with the AoR Rhomphaiophoroi
Some sort of polesword as a weapon
Used both deffensively and offensively
Animation: deffensive spear/offensive spear
This will set em apart
Basically a wall of spears that can transworm into a powerfull charge, frenetic attack with frenzy rage, berserk luke as this is a last stance with a sword tied to a pole... hacking enemies doen and relying on their heavy knight suit of armour
Penslties... fatigue... extrene charge but fir a short distance followed by epuisation if you use tgem offensuvely... go berserk, frighten and inspire... frighten birh infantry and cavalry... no retreat... fight to the last... a sort of sacrifice unit similar to tge French knights forced to dismount against tge Turks/Ottomans that went in a sort of trance untill their very last breath... medieval times berserkers
Guys i have been looking at these pictures for quite a while and i have noticed a few important details. I think, i have an idea(or i know) what these paintings actually represent and how such units should be balanced accordingly. I will list the details below and then explain what i came up with.
1)The first detail, the most obvious and at the same time very weird is the combination of spears with heavy, more accurately super-heavy armor.
2)In some paintings knights are wielding other very specific weapons along with spears. These weapons are:
I. War hammers and spiked club on the second painting of the OP.
II. Stilettos(daggers) on the 4th picture.
III. Polearm axe on the 6th painting.
Why these weapons are specific? They all serve one purpose - thrusting the heavy armor when sword is ineffective.
3)You have already noticed that these spears aren't pikes because they are too short. I agree with that.
You also say that on the other hand, they are longer than halberds, so they should be somewhere in the middle. I have to disagree.
I think in some of these paintings we see actual pikes and we should ignore them, so they don't give us an illusion of other spears being long as well.
Instead look at the second picture for example. There one guy is fighting with club against spearmen on one side, and on the other side knight was just killed by spear while trying to swing his hammer. The combat is very close here right? Definitely not something more distant than halberd fight.
And now look at the fourth picture. We have a hand to hand fight here! Some are already using daggers while others are trying to penetrate super heavy armor with spears! Here we come to fourth and very important detail.
4)On a few of these paintings we actually see how knights are using these spears to make them effective. They are trying to find weak places in enemy's armor - throat(picture 1, 2 and 4), armpit(picture 4), leg(picture 6).
5)What these spears actually are? If we look at some of the paintings where we see horsemen with lances then we may conclude that these are shortened lances. As soon as i started to analyze these pictures, it reminded me one Youtube video of Skallagrim about Half-swording. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwuQPfvSSlo Simply it is a technique of using sword to thrust weak places of enemy's armor, like these:
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I do think that the lances, like swords, served the same purpose of penetrating heavy armor when it was impossible by swinging the sword like in "good old times".
I may have already forgotten something what i wanted to add but i think this is enough.
In conclusion, this should be actual melee fight, not somithing similar to pikes. For wealthy knights, with full plate armor and the best weapons like sword, axe and hammer on horse with lance, this was probably plan B technique. Although! This melee spear fight may have become common for some quite a large period since it was very effective against those hard to kill, although expensive knights. So, somebody could and i think did utilize it as "an Entire Class". That must be the reason why we see it on plenty of frescoes.
In this game, such class should be added as a heavy/very heavy counter to plated armor units. Probably such units should have medium damage but very high Armor Penetration, so they will be very effective against elite heavy units but won't slaughter mid-tier units in seconds. It's a great balancing solution! Usually only shock or elite units like "Polearm Axemen" have high Armor Penetration along with damn high damage so they are almost always broken - either they are good vs elites and exterminate mid/low-tier units or they just suck. You should definitely add such units as an entire class but don't balance them like in fantasy games where class must be unnaturally unique like "spearmen wreck horsemen" - "swordsmen slaughter spearmen" - Shogun 2 Style. They should be unique and accurate at the same time like all other classes.
Edit: I suggest to watch just the first two minutes of the video to get what i'm talking about and what purpose these units should serve.
Well as Levan said amd what I wrote... the other posiibility would be first weapon spears... second poleaxes, maces, clubs, medieval pike, heavy axe etc. Very offensive tactics... stille tge deffensive spear/offensive spear animation... a combined force of extremely offensive solduers but that can start as a wall of spears as well untill they are ready to charge or at least some of their members... but I would add those frontal guard and tgat rier guard/arrier guard with oval and other odd shaped tower shields... tgat shield imitating a face and so on...
In the balancing system I made for my own mod I created a similar type of unit, it had a weapon length of 3 (halfway between a spear's length of 1 and a pike's length of 5). It was basically a cheap pike unit with better melee stats, but due to the shorter weapon length it was less effective at holding units at bay so it also functioned halfway between a spear and a pike.
It required a dumb amount of trial and error with the kv_rules, but it should be functionable (you'd have to do all the trial and error to tweak it for your own balancing, since my stuff wouldn't help).
Or you could of course just make it a 2H Spear unit, without pikewall formation.
Hey Caligula, could I borrow your two-handed spear animation? I forgot where you posted it to download.
Code:
animation_table rom_2handed_spear
{
skeleton_type rome_man_game
skeleton_type_cinematic rome_man
fragment rome_man_unarmed_fragment
fragment rome_man_cinematic_fragment
fragment rome_man_spear_fragment
fragment rome_man_spear_matched_combat_fragment
}
It's pretty much just Civilian 2H Spear animations, although missing the Civilian bit.
Test whether it works though, the Seven Kingdoms team have been having trouble with it for whatever reason. The spears sometimes disappear during a kill animation.
Has an Entire Class of Units Been Ignored?
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Originally Posted by The_Fawn_Rescuer
