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Thread: Guide to the Opinion of Liege trait & leader Authority

  1. #1

    Default Guide to the Opinion of Liege trait & leader Authority

    FATW's Opinion of Liege (OoL) is a trait that affects all family members of a faction and gives significant bonuses or penalties that can boost or cripple your economy and greatly affect your campaign. Sadly, there is very little information on how exactly you get what OoL trait and how to influence it. So I took a long, confused look at the files and wrote down everything I found. We're talking about some very advanced modding here, so I don't claim total accuracy or completeness. Use all values below at your own risk.
    I'd like to do the same thing for Authority, but that one is even more confusing. Not sure how far I'll go for this.

    Opinion of Liege

    Every family member has a trait stating what he thinks of his faction leader, and receives bonuses or penalties to his effectiveness as a governor and general. The levels of this trait are awarded based on a point system, where different actions/situations result in a gain or loss of points. The levels and their point requirements are:

    1 point: Insolent: -20% to land tax, trade and tax income, +40% to unit recruitment cost, -2 morale
    51 points: Faithless: -15% to land tax, trade and tax income, +30% to unit recruitment cost, -2 morale
    101 points: Discourteous: -10% to land tax, trade and tax income, +20% to unit recruitment cost, -1 morale
    151 points: Dubious: -5% to land tax, trade and tax income, +10% to unit recruitment cost, -1 morale
    201 points: Supportive: +5% to land tax, trade and tax income, -10% to unit recruitment cost, +1 morale
    251 points: Dutiful: +10% to land tax, trade and tax income, -20% to unit recruitment cost, +1 morale
    301 points: Staunch: +15% to land tax, trade and tax income, -30% to unit recruitment cost, +2 morale
    351 points: Steadfast: +20% to land tax, trade and tax income, -40% to unit recruitment cost, +2 morale

    The point values are reset at the end of every turn and calculated from scratch.

    The default value is 201 points (supportive) at game start, and 151 points (dubious) from then on. You start with this many points before any further bonuses or penalties are applied.

    Circumstances that award or cost further points are as follows:

    +20 for every point of authority above 5
    +25 for every positive level of political skill
    +50 for being the leader’s son
    +25 for being the leader’s brother
    +20 for sharing the leader’s subfaction
    +20 for belonging to the leader’s house
    +50 for having a lordship/title
    +10 for each shared personality aspect
    +25 for a lord whose settlement is NOT on auto-management, but whose taxes are low
    +/- 10 to 100 when a leader and FM meet
    -20 for every point of authority below 6
    -25 for every negative level of political skill
    -20 to -100 if the ruler does not belong to the rightful ruler’s subfaction and/or house
    -100 for belonging to a former ruling dynasty (being a former leader’s son, but not the current leader’s brother)
    -50 for being of a different alignment than the leader (cult, ways of the west, men of darkness)
    -10 for each differing personality aspect
    -25 for being a governor of a city you no longer own
    -150 for having a title revoked/removed (lordships etc.)
    -50 for being the son of a FM whose title was revoked
    -50 for being a lord in his city, with auto-management off
    -25 to 50 for being a lord in his city, with auto-management off and high taxes
    -10 to 100 for being a lord and away from his city (probably builds up over time)


    Authority

    Authority is basically RTW's influence stat, but in FATW's case, a faction leader's authority also affects his subjects' OoL, and thus their abilities as governors or generals. I'll start with one quick clarification: Your faction leader does NOT receive any authority from lordships or titles. Keep these for your other family members. There are four factors influencing a leader's authority:

    - The length of the leader's reign
    - The size and state of the realm
    - The realm's finances
    - The realm's diplomatic situation

    These four factors award a total of up to 10 authority points. Each factor awards up to 5 points. The exact distribution varies from faction to faction:

    FactionLength of RuleSize of the RealmFinancesPolitical Situation
    Elves3313
    Dwarves2350
    Hobbits3232
    ReunitedKingdom2422
    Adunabar2530
    Tharbad2242
    Harad1540
    Harondor3331
    Far-Harad4330
    Rohan3421
    Dale2341
    Beornings4411
    Dorwinion3241
    Rhovanion4411
    Rhun3520
    Khand4510
    Dunland3421
    North Rhun4420



    1) Length of the Leader's Rule

    Depending on the maximum authority awarded for a lengthy rule, a faction leader will get:

    1 point maximum: +1 authority after 5 years
    2 point maximum: +1 authority after 2 years, +2 after 10 years
    3 point maximum: +1 authority after 2 years, +2 after 5 years, +3 after 10 years
    4 point maximum: +1 authority after 1 year, +2 after 2 years, +3 after 10 years, +4 after 15 years
    5 point maximum: n. a.

    All starting leaders begin with an artificial, semi-random length of rule based on their age.

    2) The Size of the Realm

    This one is trickier, and I'm not sure I fully trust the figures I got from the files. The influencing factors are:
    - the number of settlements captured/lost during your current leader's reign
    - the number of important settlements under your control. Important settlements are three homeland settlements, usually from among your starting regions (Dorwinion only gets two), and any of the following: Caras Galadhorn, Mithlond, Elvenking's Hall, Rivendell, Dwarrowdelf, Erebor, Dale, Minas Arnor, Minas Ithil, Annuminas, Dol Amroth, Edoras, Hornburg, Umbar
    - the number of settlements under siege

    Assuming you do not lose any settlements, a leader would need to take at most three settlements during his reign to reliably max out authority gained through the size of his realm.

    For all min-maxers and math junkies, the exact numbers are in spoilers:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    First, you are awarded points for settlements taken:
    +5 if you still control as many settlements as you had at the start of your reign
    +10 for every additional settlement since then, to a maximum of 40
    Let's call this total "numberA".

    Then check your settlements. You are awarded 2 points for each of your faction-specific important settlements:

    Elves: Elvenking's Hall, Caras Galadhorn, Mithlond
    Hobbits: Michel Delving, Buckleburry, Undertowers
    Dwarves: Erebor, Dwarrowdelf, Baraz-Dum
    Reunited Kingdom: Minas Arnor, Minas Ithil, Annuminas
    Adunabar: Minas Arnor, Minas Ithil, Lond Nurnen
    Tharbad: Tharbad, Greyholm, Lond Daer
    Harad: Umbar, Caranbad, Achas Annabon
    Harondor: Harn Gond, Rad Harnen, Harmen
    Far-Harad: Athancaras, Anorlith, Adabbara
    Rohan: Edoras, Hornburg, Dunfreca
    Dale: Dale, Esgaroth, Burne
    Beornings: Oldford, Grimhold, Holt
    Dorwinion: Belegant, Rathwin
    Rhovanion: Rhovanost, Iath-in-Rhaw, Ereb-Gobel
    Rhun: Tham, Raichost, Amrundor
    Khand: Acharn, Muldin, Alag Rochbin
    North Rhun: Fornhud, Throdram, Garth

    You are then awarded another 1 point for each of the following cities under your control: Caras Galadhorn, Elvenking's Hall, Mithlond, Rivendell, Dwarrowdelf, Erebor, Minas Arnor, Minas Ithil, Annuminas, Dol Amroth, Edoras, Hornburg, Dale, Umbar.

    Divide the total by two, rounded down. You are then awarded points based on the resulting number:
    2: 10
    3: 20
    4: 25
    5: 30
    6: 35
    7: 40
    8: 45
    etc.

    Call this total "numberB" and add it to "numberA".
    Depending on the maximin authority awarded for the size of your realm, a faction leader will get:

    1 point maximum: n. a.
    2 point maximum: +1 authority for 20 points, +2 for 40 or more
    3 point maximum: +1 authority for 10 points, +2 for 30, +3 for 50 or more
    4 point maximum: +1 authority for 10 points, +2 for 20, +3 for 40 or more, +4 for 50 or more
    5 point maximum: +1 authority for 10 points, +2 for 20, +3 for 30, +4 for 40, +5 for 50 or more


    3) The Realm's Finances

    To determine the authority gained from your faction's financial situation, you are awarded points:

    +20 base points
    +30 points for a low average tax level across your entire realm
    -15 points for every average tax level above low across your realm (to a maximum of -15 at very high taxes)
    -5 points for every consecutive turn with an army upkeep higher than 70% of your total expenses, to a maximum of -25 after 5 turns
    -5 points for every consecutive turn with a treasury deficit, to a maximum of -30 after 6 turns
    +10 points for a treasury of > 10,000 and < 50,000 gold
    +20 points for a treasury of > 50,000 and < 100,000 gold
    +30 points for a treasury of > 100,000 gold

    Depending on the maximum authority awarded for your realm's finances, a faction leader will get:

    1 point maximum: +1 authority for 30 points
    2 point maximum: +1 authority for 20 points, +2 for 40 or more
    3 point maximum: +1 authority for 10 points, +2 for 30, +3 for 50 or more
    4 point maximum: +1 authority for 10 points, +2 for 20, +3 for 40 or more, +4 for 50 or more
    5 point maximum: +1 authority for 10 points, +2 for 20, +3 for 30, +4 for 40, +5 for 50 or more

    4) The Realm's Diplomatic Situation

    To determine the authority awarded for your faction's political situation, you are awarded points:

    +20 base points
    +5 points for every ally, to a maximum of +45
    -10 points for every enemy, to a maximum of -20 for 2 enemies
    -5 points for every enemy beyond two, to a total maximum of -55 points for 9 enemies
    -10 points for having inacceptable political relations (mostly war between Dale and Beornings, war between the Reunited Kingdom, elves and the Shire, and an alliance between the Reunited Kingdom and Adunabar)
    -5 points for every inacceptable relation beyond the first

    Depending on the maximin authority awarded for your realm's diplomacy, a faction leader will get:

    1 point maximum: +1 authority for 30 points
    2 point maximum: +1 authority for 20 points, +2 for 40 or more
    3 point maximum: +1 authority for 10 points, +2 for 30, +3 for 50 or more
    4 point maximum: n. a.
    5 point maximum: n. a.

    In addition, you may lose up to 1 point of authority if your allies are suffering from war. You get:

    +5 points for each of their faction-specific important cities your allies do not control (see "size of the realm" spoilers for a list), +10 if it is a generally important city (see list)
    +5 points for every allied city under siege (to a maximum of +10)
    +20 points every time an allied faction is destroyed. This affects: alliances between the Reunited Kingdom and Rohan or the Shire, and Dale and dwarves. These points are permanent and will last until the end of the game.

    You will lose 1 point of authority if the total equals or exceeds 40 points. This authority loss is independent of the importance your faction puts on diplomacy.

    General Trait Stuff
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    While digging through the trait file, I found a bunch of interesting stuff, most of which I forgot right away due to information overload. But here is some stuff that stuck:

    - You can improve your FMs' skills in fighting, lore and politics by having them fight battles or spend turns outside any settlement (fighting), visit an academy or constructing buildings (lore) or visiting a chamber of banquets (politics). The extent to which this works is difficult to predict, as it depends on traits hidden from the player.
    - A king of the Reunited Kingdom can get healing hands if he spends time in a settlement with the pleague or if he loses 30% of his army in battle.
    - A FM of the Reunited Kingdom can become an elf-friend if he either king or lord of Evendim or Eastern Arthedain, and has the right (hidden) character traits. This may get him some useful ancillaries.
    - A FM of Dale can become a dwarf-friend if he is either king or lord of Dale, and has the right (hidden) character traits. He may also get some ancillaries.
    - There seem to be lots of interesting traits and ancillaries that never appear ingame because they don't have any triggers.
    Last edited by The Sloth; January 10, 2019 at 12:35 PM.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Guide to the Opinion of Liege trait

    Great post, thanks!

    Also note that every character who comes of age or is adopted/married into the royal family will begin as 'Supportive', but that will not necessarily be their OoL *afterwards*. I've seen some players choose a potential adoptee based partly on his Supportive OoL, which is why I mention it.
    One of the most sophisticated Total War modders ever developed...

  3. #3

    Default Re: Guide to the Opinion of Liege trait

    Why on earth is my table not showing?

    edit: Phew, much better. But what a pain in the ***!
    Last edited by The Sloth; June 12, 2017 at 05:01 PM.

  4. #4
    Beorn's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Re: Guide to the Opinion of Liege trait

    great job, sir!

  5. #5

    Default Re: Guide to the Opinion of Liege trait

    Nice to see this continuing! I never dug into the trait files very deeply, so these values are new to me.
    One of the most sophisticated Total War modders ever developed...

  6. #6

    Default Re: Guide to the Opinion of Liege trait

    There, it's done. Aradan is beginning to scare me. It takes a special kind of insanity to come up with that monster of a file. There are traits in there to check that other traits work properly, and other traits to check on the traits that check on traits. I felt like a dwarf digging very, very deep under Moria.

  7. #7
    Beorn's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Re: Guide to the Opinion of Liege trait

    He had been talking enthusiastically about the trait system since '10 or so, so he years -literally- to create it

  8. #8

    Default Re: Guide to the Opinion of Liege trait

    Regarding the "allies suffering from war" portion: do the files make it clear whether we're talking about any alliance, or is it only the "special" alliances between the RK/Rohan and Dale/Dwarves that affect diplomacy in this way? If those penalties apply to any alliance, it certainly gives the player an incentive to be wary about allying with any old faction unless he's prepared to defend them, which is awesome (and that's usually how I play my campaigns anyway). Although a 1-point loss of Authority from allies being under siege or losing territory isn't likely to be game-wrecking, it could compound OoL problems. I do remember at one point in development I argued that the diplomacy penalty seemed a bit too harsh on the player's Authority, which could explain why it's limited to 1 point currently.

    I'm guessing some of those ancillaries are leftovers from previous versions. In the past couple of years we wanted to limit the amount of ancillaries so that they were relatively rare and more meaningful, and that meant losing some of the previous ancs. I guess there's the possibility that what you're seeing is some ancs that simply aren't working for other reasons, though - but I recall our tests indicated that the ancs worked properly.

    Once again, thanks a ton for doing this. It's inspiring me to start up another campaign and put this to good use
    One of the most sophisticated Total War modders ever developed...

  9. #9

    Default Re: Guide to the Opinion of Liege trait

    Quote Originally Posted by CountMRVHS View Post
    Regarding the "allies suffering from war" portion: do the files make it clear whether we're talking about any alliance, or is it only the "special" alliances between the RK/Rohan and Dale/Dwarves that affect diplomacy in this way?
    You're correct, it only concerns RK/Rohan/Shire and Dale/Dwarves. I have updated the guide to point this out.

    Quote Originally Posted by CountMRVHS View Post
    I'm guessing some of those ancillaries are leftovers from previous versions. In the past couple of years we wanted to limit the amount of ancillaries so that they were relatively rare and more meaningful, and that meant losing some of the previous ancs. I guess there's the possibility that what you're seeing is some ancs that simply aren't working for other reasons, though - but I recall our tests indicated that the ancs worked properly.
    I figured that was the case. Although there seem to be traits that I do not remember seeing in TNS that have no trigger, either. And then there is TNS's "supplied" trait, wich looks like it should work just fine, with triggers and everything, but which never shows up ingame for some reason.

    Anyway, make sure to tell me if you notice anything else that the guide should mention.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Guide to the Opinion of Liege trait

    Oh, the Shire is included with RK/Rohan? That's interesting (makes sense, too). It probably won't come up too often, although this maybe explains some difficulty in getting Rohan's king's Authority up: if RK loses in the North and the Shire gets attacked by Adunabar, Rohan is going to suffer Authority loss as a result.

    You're not seeing the supply traits? Or specifically the "supplied" level of that trait? I haven't played in a while, but could swear I've seen it.
    One of the most sophisticated Total War modders ever developed...

  11. #11

    Default Re: Guide to the Opinion of Liege trait

    One related point: By building the Assembly at Gundabad (and, IIRC, visiting the location after construction), a Dwarf-king will gain 1 Authority. Not a huge amount, but a nice bump when you've already done everything you can to boost Authority, or if you find yourself with a particularly inept king.
    One of the most sophisticated Total War modders ever developed...

  12. #12

    Default Re: Guide to the Opinion of Liege trait

    Quote Originally Posted by The Sloth View Post
    There, it's done. Aradan is beginning to scare me. It takes a special kind of insanity to come up with that monster of a file. There are traits in there to check that other traits work properly, and other traits to check on the traits that check on traits. I felt like a dwarf digging very, very deep under Moria.
    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    He had been talking enthusiastically about the trait system since '10 or so, so he years -literally- to create it
    I am glad someone is finally unearthing and appreciating all the work that's gone into that file. Traits generally get overlooked in favour of cool units and stuff, but I felt we could add much more depth in the game if we used them correctly. I wish I had had the time to finish my rebellion system - it would have made mid-late game much more exciting. Alas...

    PS: I wouldn't call me 'insane'. Perhaps 'inordinately dedicated'? And sorry for necro-posting!

  13. #13

    Default Re: Guide to the Opinion of Liege trait

    Well hey, the old team's all here!

    Even without the rebellion system, I find the Opinion of Liege traits, and their link to Authority, to be one of the most engaging parts of the mod - almost a mini-game you can play at the campaign level.

    On a scale of 1 to 10, how crazily difficult would it be for someone to add in that rebellion system, though, even in a very rudimentary form? I figure I've got a few years to start learning coding, maybe...
    One of the most sophisticated Total War modders ever developed...

  14. #14

    Default Re: Guide to the Opinion of Liege trait

    Can we assume from the given information that, so long as your settlement is on auto-manage, that it does not matter what level taxes are set to (or what "policy", in this context)? Time for some knit-picking:

    Quote Originally Posted by The Sloth View Post
    -25 for being a governor of a city you no longer own
    Does this mean having the lordship ancillary for a settlement now owned by another faction, or being governor of a settlement whose lordship ancillary is held by another character?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Sloth View Post
    -50 for being the son of a FM whose title was revoked
    Would this apply to the son(s) of the faction leader, considering the faction leader himself does not suffer a penalty from giving away lordships?


    Quote Originally Posted by The Sloth View Post
    -15 points for every average tax level above low across your realm (to a maximum of -15 at very high taxes)
    This seems confusing. Could it be meant to read as follows:

    "-5 points for every average tax level above low across your realm (to a maximum of -15 at very high taxes)"


    Also, is this meant to imply a -15 penalty for every settlement with "very high" tax rate, or -15% total if the average tax rate across your empire is very high? The current wording is probably technically concise, but it seems a bit too ambiguous for the non-English major.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Sloth View Post
    +5 points for each of their faction-specific important cities your allies do not control (see "size of the realm" spoilers for a list), -10 if it is a generally important city (see list)
    +5 points for every allied city under siege (to a maximum of -10)
    +20 points every time an allied faction is destroyed. Thisaffects: alliances between the Reunited Kingdom and Rohan or the Shire, and Dale and dwarves. These points are permanent and will last until the end of the game.
    It would seem that some of these "+" should be "-", or vise versa. At any rate, it looks confused as is.
    Last edited by Wambat; January 11, 2019 at 08:27 AM.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Guide to the Opinion of Liege trait

    Quote Originally Posted by CountMRVHS View Post
    Well hey, the old team's all here!
    We received the summons!

    Even without the rebellion system, I find the Opinion of Liege traits, and their link to Authority, to be one of the most engaging parts of the mod - almost a mini-game you can play at the campaign level.
    That's great to hear, and it's also great that you demonstrate all the less-immediately obvious gameplay features in your excellent AARs.

    On a scale of 1 to 10, how crazily difficult would it be for someone to add in that rebellion system, though, even in a very rudimentary form? I figure I've got a few years to start learning coding, maybe...
    I don't remember every little detail of what the game can support/detect in terms of trait events, triggers, and conditions, but I'd say it's around 8 in terms of coding and 8-9 in terms of concept, because you really need to think well (and take into consideration the engine's limitations) when deciding exactly how the system would work.
    I'm downloading the 3.2 as we speak, so I might have a peak into the mod files and the CA docudemon files to reacquaint myself. Perhaps I can come up with a couple pointers or suggestions. More in the dev forum!

  16. #16

    Default Re: Guide to the Opinion of Liege trait

    Hooray!

    (Not "hooray" about it being an 8 or 9 in difficulty; holy crap that's terrifying)
    One of the most sophisticated Total War modders ever developed...

  17. #17

    Default Re: Guide to the Opinion of Liege trait

    Man, this takes me back.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wambat View Post
    Can we assume from the given information that, so long as your settlement is on auto-manage, that it does not matter what level taxes are set to (or what "policy", in this context)?
    Financial policy would not affect your OoL directly, but would lower the authority of a money-focused faction's leader by increasing the realm's average tax level (see below), to the detriment of his governors' OoL.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wambat View Post
    Time for some knit-picking:
    Does this mean having the lordship ancillary for a settlement now owned by another faction, or being governor of a settlement whose lordship ancillary is held by another character?
    Bold is correct. The other option has its own OoL penalty (see "-150 for having a title revoked/removed (lordships etc.")
    Quote Originally Posted by Wambat View Post
    Would this apply to the son(s) of the faction leader, considering the faction leader himself does not suffer a penalty from giving away lordships?
    I don't remember, but I would assume it applies to the leader's sons. If you want to find out, it should be fairly easy to test
    Quote Originally Posted by Wambat View Post
    This seems confusing. Could it be meant to read as follows:
    "-5 points for every average tax level above low across your realm (to a maximum of -15 at very high taxes)"
    No. I'm talking about the total score for national tax level. You get 30 points for low taxes. -15 for normal taxes, makes 15 points total. -15 more points for high taxes, makes 0 points total. -15 more points for very high taxes, makes -15 points total.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wambat View Post
    Also, is this meant to imply a -15 penalty for every settlement with "very high" tax rate, or -15% total if the average tax rate across your empire is very high? The current wording is probably technically concise, but it seems a bit too ambiguous for the non-English major.
    Again, I can't remember 100%, but I very much believe it does refer to the average tax level across your entire realm.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wambat View Post
    It would seem that some of these "+" should be "-", or vise versa. At any rate, it looks confused as is.Also, is this meant to imply a -15 for every settlement with very high tax rate, or -15% total if the average tax rate across your empire is very high?
    The pluses are correct. You earn points if your allies are doing poorly, and lose authority if these points exceed 40. I don't understand what this has to do with settlement taxation, though.
    Last edited by The Sloth; January 07, 2019 at 04:15 PM.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Guide to the Opinion of Liege trait

    Quote Originally Posted by The Sloth View Post
    The pluses are correct. You earn points if your allies are doing poorly, and lose authority if these points exceed 40. I don't understand what this has to do with settlement taxation, though.
    I am pretty sure that last part of that sentence was a copy/paste error on my part when formatting the post, but the first part is still confusing to me. Take the first line:

    Quote Originally Posted by The Sloth View Post
    +5 points for each of their faction-specific important cities your allies do not control (see "size of the realm" spoilers for a list), -10 if it is a generally important city (see list)
    So, if your ally does not control one of his "faction-specific important cities", you get +5 points toward that 40 point marker, but if your ally does not control one of his "faction-specific important cities" but that "faction-specific important city" is a "generally important city", you get +5 - 10 = -5 points toward that 40 point total; making that a good thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Sloth View Post
    +5 points for every allied city under siege (to a maximum of -10)

    I think we can agree that this definitely does not make sense as written. I can only assume you must have meant to write: "+5 points for every allied city under siege (to a maximum of +10)"

  19. #19

    Default Re: Guide to the Opinion of Liege trait

    Ugh, I didnt even see that. But you are definitely correct. Now where is that edit button...

    edit: Found it.

    editedit: Done.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Guide to the Opinion of Liege trait

    Since this is now a guide to both OoL *and* Authority, could you update the threat title to reflect that?

    (If not possible directly- perhaps a moderator could do it for you?)

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