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Thread: Fetuses can recognize faces

  1. #21
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Fetuses can recognize faces

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithradates View Post
    There is hope, as it seems.
    I don't get it.Would you mind to elaborate?
    ------
    A pertinent question is when does consciousness arise:
    The Emergence of Human Consciousness: From Fetal to Neonatal Life

    The preterm infant ex utero may open its eyes and establish a minimal eye contact with its mother. It also shows avoidance reactions to harmful stimuli. The connections with the GNW circuits are not yet fully established. Our view is that it has reached only a lower level of minimal consciousness analogous (though, of course, not identical) to that of a rat/mouse (7,9). A pending question is the status of the preterm fetus born before 26 wk (<700 g) who has closed eyes and seems constantly asleep. The immaturity of its brain networks is such that it may not even reach a level of minimal consciousness. The postnatal maturation of the brain may be delayed (71) and there are indications that the connectivity with the GNW will be suboptimal in some cases (72) as indicated by deficient executive functions (73). Therefore, the timing of the emergence of minimal consciousness has been proposed as an ethical limit of human viability and it might be possible to withhold or withdraw intensive care if these infants are severely brain damaged (74,75).
    Last edited by Ludicus; June 22, 2017 at 05:38 PM.
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  2. #22

    Default Re: Fetuses can recognize faces

    Quote Originally Posted by Spear Dog View Post
    The foetuses tested were at 34 weeks, this is very close to the 35-36 pre-term baby threshold were newborns can be breast fed and have a high chance (near the same as a full term) of survival. They are smaller and thinner but that may very well inspire in a mother closer attention to feeding and care, increasing the babies chances of survival. The ability to react and respond to the care giver is part of a bonding process that also (generally) increases the odds of survival for a new born. It makes sense that this vital function for a social being develops early as there are no guarantees a foetus will reach full term and bonding to the care giver has a much more critical outcome for a pre-term baby.
    This is interesting! I think, it has been said and proven that fetuses can literally recognize faces while inside the womb. Amazing!

  3. #23
    saxdude's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Fetuses can recognize faces

    Quote Originally Posted by Copperknickers II View Post
    it's pretty simple, living things shouldn't be killed except in case of threat to the life of another. A foetus may be a parasitic organism in the early stages of life but it's pretty hard to make the case that it's not a living thing of some description. Maybe only on the level of an animal, but with vegetarianism and veganism increasing by the day that will itself be enough to protect them once the convenience argument gets made irrelevant, as I say.
    Assuming the convenience argument gets made irrelevant in the odd chance that having a baby becomes impossible without planning, abortion itself will have become obsolete all on it's own, without any moral arbiter dictating what is and what is not morally required. After all women don't go through the process of abortion because of some sociopathic pleasure in "infanticide", unlike what Dr. Legend and people of his ilk would have you believe.

    At any rate I'm not entirely sure if you are describing your own views or just the general direction of society towards the future (which I gotta say sounds optimistic to the point of absurdity), but the statemen on what one deems as acceptable killing is entirely arbitrary and ridiculous. To imagine a society so advanced so as to entirely eliminate the need to not only eat meat, but to remove vermin and all manner of non-lethal parasites in a non violent fashion, not to mention elimionate the need of agriculture and plant based resources (after all it's pretty hard to make the case that they are not a living thing of some description), is at this point dwelling in little more than fantasy, and not actually useful as a standard for moral discussion.


    It's comparable to the gladiators in ancient Rome - of course most areas of the classical world were if anything even more brutal than Rome, but we remember the gladiators because of the paradoxical presence of such a large-scale and unique type of brutality in what was in comparative terms a more civilised area, i.e. we resent the Romans more than their more brutal neighbours because we think they should have known better. This is the general trend throughout both history and modern politics and it will be the same for our current time: we as Westerners will be judged much more harshly than ISIS or Joseph Kony.
    And one has to wonder, what of it? What of the uneducated future majority that will judge us based on likely incomplete and hollywoodized information, paying no heed to presumably decades, centuries or milenia of hindsight, information and technological advancement?
    The comparison to gladiators is apt, men who weren't slaughtered for sport but where treated as analogous to modern day sports stars, competing in games that were much more a component of religious and political machinery than they were of decadence and moral deviance in a declining society. They are today the focus of roman brutality and bloodlust, while acts like crucifiction are relegated to a the single event of religious significance.

    If that is going to be the case with us, then let them judge and resent, while the academics at least try to understand the logic and the limitations of our decisions. Surely those with some semblance of education, even in this utopic ideal of a society, will acknowledge that given our limitations, we had to make a distinction (however arbitrary) between lesser forms of life and ourselves, and thus just like we could justify killing a roach for the sake of hygene and health standards, we could justify killing a fetus without any detectable sense of conciousness for the sake of a better, healthier society.

    Which is all neither here nor there because this thread is not about abortion, so maybe take this to the EE.

  4. #24

    Default Re: Fetuses can recognize faces

    "Killing babies is just like killing plants and roaches." r/atheismCringe alert!

    Your entire post was really creepy, but I'll address this:

    Quote Originally Posted by saxdude View Post
    After all women don't go through the process of abortion because of some sociopathic pleasure in "infanticide", unlike what Dr. Legend and people of his ilk would have you believe.
    Nah, dude I think people in general either choose not to think about their immoralities, or try to rationalize it as part of the greater good. It's certainly easy to do that when you're young, single and poor and have a human growing inside you. But "professional" abortion advocates (politicians, PP, etc.), are generally troublemakers and need a pretty good spanking.
    Last edited by Prodromos; November 26, 2017 at 04:11 PM.
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  5. #25

    Default Re: Fetuses can recognize faces

    This must, objectively speaking, push back the latest weeks pro-abortionists would approve of for an abortion without just admitting that it is murder.

  6. #26
    NorseThing's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Fetuses can recognize faces

    Quote Originally Posted by Pontifex Maximus View Post
    This must, objectively speaking, push back the latest weeks pro-abortionists would approve of for an abortion without just admitting that it is murder.
    The OP had this as a 34 week observation and that is a late term abortion. Even in Colorado, it is on the line.

    Colorado is one of the few states where a late abortion can be obtained. Outpatient abortion is available up to 26 weeks. In addition, medically indicated termination of pregnancy up to 34 weeks is also an option for conditions such as fetal anomalies, genetic disorder, fetal demise and/or or severe medical problems.
    https://phys.org/news/2017-06-fetuse...like-womb.html

    This just gives both sides a debate point, but will probably change nothing. Sides are made up and I doubt the facts will ever get in the way for those on either side. Sad. Very sad.

    More on the science rather than making this into an abortion debate -- The baby is always developing. The fact that the baby can do something at a certain gestation point means nothing more than a marker point on the development time line. A little earlier, an not as much and a little later only more developed.

    Still this is interesting to know.

  7. #27
    Elfdude's Avatar Tribunus
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    Default Re: Fetuses can recognize faces

    It's more or less impossible for us to define what the hell we're talking about when we talk about consciousness, often we either define it in a way that nothing is sure to possess it, or in a way that begs the question if EVERYTHING possesses it. Facial recognition is something which our evolutionary ancestors had a lot of reinforcement on being able to do. This means practically every animal we've tested or can test can identify faces of not just their species but of other species as well. This is an adaptive advantage for example as a predator trying to figure out which side to bite of your prey animal. There's good reason to assume that this ability exists even amongst the most basic of creatures and neurologies and gets increasingly complex as the brain complexity allows. For example insects and eye spots, might fool a predator with poor facial recognition/processing power but not so much for those without that handicap. Mostly we presumed these were for birds and "higher" order creatures but we also find eye spots which are clearly designed to work on insects.

    We have very strong facial recognition built into our brains, we just lack the processing to make sense of it.

    I don't find facial recognition as a compelling argument for when an abortion is or isn't ok. The clear line for me is when the baby is guaranteed survival outside of the womb which is about 4-5 months.
    Last edited by Elfdude; February 01, 2018 at 02:22 AM.

  8. #28

    Default Re: Fetuses can recognize faces

    It's actually sooner than that.

  9. #29
    Elfdude's Avatar Tribunus
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    Default Re: Fetuses can recognize faces

    No it's not. At 26 weeks there's an 8 in 10 chance of survival, at 27 there's a 9 in 10, at 28 it's virtually guaranteed. Thus far I've not lost a baby after 22 weeks. This is not withstanding the other side-affects of being born so early. Duno where you get your information but it's wrong.

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