Medieval Kingdoms Total War: the Seljuks of Rum (and the Ottomans)

[hessam]

Why some of the Nöker units have neon colours under their Armour? Will u change it? It reminds me of that Electric Boogaloo pic from the Spoof thread.
Also i hope Nöker Foot Guards get shields so they can function as Melee Unit too.

I could desaturate those colors a bit. If you look closely, you'll see that the Noker Foot Guards do have shields on their backs.

[You_Guess_Who]

That Foot Guard melee capability is really important for the Turks to maintaining a frontline; because without AoR Jira Khaar, Voynuks, and Martolos the Turks practically have no native armoured defensive spears/polearms on all tiers; nor general-purpose swords-and-shield in Tier 3.

Well, to be fair the Turks were not really known for those - giving the roster a certain unique weakness the player have to adapt to.

[Slytacular]

Voynuks are wearing extremely outdated helmets. Spangen construction would be extremely unlikely to find on the arming market when 15th century European armour are designed to not have a flat surface. If you want an old helmet, use an open faced bascinet of some kind.

[hessam]

That Foot Guard melee capability is really important for the Turks to maintaining a frontline; because without AoR Jira Khaar, Voynuks, and Martolos the Turks practically have no native armoured defensive spears/polearms on all tiers; nor general-purpose swords-and-shield in Tier 3.

Well, to be fair the Turks were not really known for those - giving the roster a certain unique weakness the player have to adapt to.

That's right. And such a balance of weakness/strength was intended. The general idea is that Early era and a considerable portion of high era is the age of pure cavalry tactics, with only some light and one all-rounder infantry in the form of Ghulam and Noker foot guards. But from 1370s onward, with the introduction of Kapikulu and Yeniceri organizations, Cavalry/Infantry tactics become more balanced than before. And since all Yenicers were trained in a variety of weapons (you might find it interesting that even later Yeniceri gunners and musketeers were also trained with the bow and carried one into battle in order not to lose their function in case weather conditions weren't suitable for use of gunpowder, a huge advantage over their Western counterpart), Yeniceri Archers and Zirhli Yeniceri Archers, and Yeniceri Gunners should be quite efficient in melee too. In short, while Rum/Ottomans don't have the heavy sword and shield infantry other factions, they have a couple of units that are both great missile and great melee fighters.

[hessam]

Voynuks are wearing extremely outdated helmets. Spangen construction would be extremely unlikely to find on the arming market when 15th century European armour are designed to not have a flat surface. If you want an old helmet, use an open faced bascinet of some kind.

I've noticed that too. I'll replace them. Thanks for reminding me.

[Visarion]

But I've seen representations, plenty of them, with Yeniceri making use of three type of weapons in the same time, the polearm, bardiche or spear, a handaxe, mace or curved sword and not lastly a bow and arrows in reserve... so this is why I was hoping and asking for a polearm/spearmen/bowmen sort of unit... that would be cool and pretty unique... guess the assault version can be played by the Zerhli Yeniceri... if you say they can use the buckler in melee as well and come equiped with maces, axes and swords for close quarters actions...

[hessam]

But I've seen representations, plenty of them, with Yeniceri making use of three type of weapons in the same time, the polearm, bardiche or spear, a handaxe, mace or curved sword and not lastly a bow and arrows in reserve... so this is why I was hoping and asking for a polearm/spearmen/bowmen sort of unit... that would be cool and pretty unique... guess the assault version can be played by the Zerhli Yeniceri... if you say they can use the buckler in melee as well and come equiped with maces, axes and swords for close quarters actions...

Care to share some of those representations with us? Plus, I don't even know if we can compile that kind of animation from existing animation fragments. Perhaps YGW would know more about that.

[Visarion]

Unfortunatelly I can't share them but I'll PM together with other two more suggestions...

[hessam]

Unfortunatelly I can't share them but I'll PM together with other two more suggestions...

I read your message and that's exactly what I expected: osprey illustrations, which is not a reliable source at all when it comes to Medieval Turkish military.

p.s. they do have some good stuff but it's generally just hit and miss.

[Visarion]

Oh really I thought they were very reliable...

[Locus_Devium]

That's right. And such a balance of weakness/strength was intended. The general idea is that Early era and a considerable portion of high era is the age of pure cavalry tactics, with only some light and one all-rounder infantry in the form of Ghulam and Noker foot guards. But from 1370s onward, with the introduction of Kapikulu and Yeniceri organizations, Cavalry/Infantry tactics become more balanced than before. And since all Yenicers were trained in a variety of weapons (you might find it interesting that even later Yeniceri gunners and musketeers were also trained with the bow and carried one into battle in order not to lose their function in case weather conditions weren't suitable for use of gunpowder, a huge advantage over their Western counterpart), Yeniceri Archers and Zirhli Yeniceri Archers, and Yeniceri Gunners should be quite efficient in melee too. In short, while Rum/Ottomans don't have the heavy sword and shield infantry other factions, they have a couple of units that are both great missile and great melee fighters.

While yeniceri missile units are capable melee fighters will they get shields?

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[hessam]

While yeniceri missile units are capable melee fighters will they get shields?

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The heavily armored one (Zirhli Yeniceri Archers) has shields but not the lighter one.

[Nebaki]

Im missing some couple things:

1.Some Armour for the Billmens or even a Shield - maybe you can give them Armour like in MTW2? - something like a Mid-Armour between Silk wearing Janissaries and that Heavy Armoured Ones.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

2. What happened to the Anatolian Veteran Spearman? I mean Ottomans "yeah" but we the main Faction is still the Seljuks of Rum which even has other Principalities then only the Ottomans.

3. In this Update i still hoped for more Infantry Units then instead of Cavalry but we have here more Raiders then anything else and even some in the same Function which makes the other one obsolete.


But beside all this hessam you did an impressive Job

[You_Guess_Who]

Plus, I don't even know if we can compile that kind of animation from existing animation fragments. Perhaps YGW would know more about that.

A 2h spear+bow combo is perfectly doable. Spear fighting animation which occassionally swap into sword is also plausible, although might look goofy in actual game.

Now, about melee capability: its the db stats that counts, so technically the appearance does not matter. For the Missile-armed Janissaries be able to do their dual-role nature, they should be assigned with abilities usually possessed by purely melee unit: i.e. Shieldwall to absorb charges, infantry wedge for assault (mp_test_1 in the db), or even squares (in-game, solid square formation are purely melee defense, hollow square still enables shooting - pick one). They are well trained professionals, so advanced formations should be in their repertoire.

About the melee infantry, to think about it again, all of the infantry in Ilkhanate and Golden Horde roster are all local auxiliaries in the first place! So the lack of factional unit might not matter after all. However, how about sprinkling their Turk overlord's influence into Voynuks and Martolos like balkan wing shields, Turkish tunics/overcoats/vests, and occasional Turkish helmets into them, so they look more like exclusive AoR units that only Turkish factions that can recruit instead of AoR for all factions that might occupy the Balkans.

[zsimmortal]

I think there's already a 2h spear and bow animation from the Avar tribesmen (I think) in AoC. That would likely only have the reflex_bow animation though. Worst case, I can just do a custom one in a few seconds.

[Visarion]

Well I proposed to hessam a Late Janissary armed with spear, halberd, bardiche and other polearms and a bow, a Arabian Auxiliary with crossbow and a Wallachian Voynik Auxiliary most likely from the time of Radu III "the Handsome" Dracula-Basarab, captain of the Janissaries or Vlad IV the Monk Dracula-Basarab, his cousin, using the halberd and making use of the longsword, spatha style, typical for the Vlachs and a Hussar like wing shield with a griffon painted on it, chain shirt and a nice decorated Turco-Mongol helmet, figures depicted by Angus McBride. Now let's see what he'll say, that would add some unique elements. I would propose the current Voynuks for the High era.

[Danishmend]

In my opinion:
Limited infantry in early/high period is totally expected and makes sense from a historical point of view. Even the classical Ottoman army was depended on cavalry, let alone Seljuks (early) and Beyliks (high) periods, so it is normal for this faction to have cav-based roster.

Azab/Yaya + decent number of Janissary/Kapıkulu units + Balkan and Greek auxiliaries --> this combination perfectly reflects the Ottoman infantry. Tımarlı Sipahis was the biggest segment of the army, Akıncıs and Kapıkulu cav came after them. Infantry who were minority at the center of the army (Azabs + Janissary) formed a static battle line and pinned the enemy while cavalry at left and right flanks served as striking arms, this was the main battle tactic.

Anatolian Spearmen has been replaced by Jira-Khaar, which is basically the same unit with different name and modified appearance that also reflects native Christian elements.

[Danishmend]

Well I proposed to hessam a Late Janissary armed with spear, halberd, bardiche and other polearms and a bow, a Arabian Auxiliary with crossbow and a Wallachian Voynik Auxiliary most likely from the time of

AOR/auxiliary units are based on these regions (late 15th century Ottoman Empire). Arab-inhabited lands were conquered in the 16th century.

So we have Crimean Tatars, Greeks, Balkan Slavs, Wallachians as AOR/auxiliary units.

[hessam]

@ Zsimmortal and YGW, I know about the 2h spear + bow animation. I meant like 2h spear or polearm with swords, (so far like vanilla pikemen), plus bow animations. Because that's what Visarion suggested when he said "three type of weapons in the same time".

@ YGW, adding some Turkish elements to the auxiliaries is actually not a bad idea. I'll consider it.

Like Danishmend said, Anatolian Spearmen have been renamed to Jira-Khaars, replaced by Cerehor in high era. But they're technically the same unit if you read their description. Again as Danishmend pointed out, I've tried to keep the composition of the army as historical as it gets without jeopardizing a fun gameplay. For example, in response to Nebaki's concerns about "more Raiders then anything else and even some in the same Function which makes the other one obsolete" I must say that raiding was the most essential war strategy of the Ottomans both during campaigns and in peace time. And all the "raider" type units I've made have a basis in history: Akincis, Haramis, Delis (although Delis were equally efficient in conventional warfare as well), and Tatars (who late towards the end of 16th century replaced the Akinci as the Ottomans' first choice for light cavalry).

[hessam]

AOR/auxiliary units are based on these regions (late 15th century Ottoman Empire). Arab-inhabited lands were conquered in the 16th century.

So we have Crimean Tatars, Greeks, Balkan Slavs, Wallachians as AOR/auxiliary units.

Exactly. Circassian, Arab, and Kurdish auxiliaries are out of the mod's time frame.