Medieval Kingdoms Total War: the Seljuks of Rum (and the Ottomans)

[Ltd.]

Very nice and authentic roster , Hessam. Beautiful units !

[hessam]

The Late-tier are in fact so great, I can easily see that the T2 units are rushed. So many vanilla Attila models are used on them - not that they're necessarily bad, oh no; its just some of them feels lacking in variety and some are even inappropriately stands out. For instance:

- Heavy T2 units solely uses AoC Ummayad metal shields. You should sprinkle more of your own beautiful shields to them.

- Attila's iron and bronze greaves looks too Ancient. So does the bronze cataphract mail legging. On another side, Attila's devil cavalry boots and iron mail legging still looks suitable.

while I agree with some of your criticism regarding high era units (like the Umayyad shields and greaves), I wouldn't say the high era roster was rushed. The main reason tier 2 is "less interesting" than tier 3 is that there's very little "visual" information about 14th century Ottoman military, which leads to the use of experimentation and imagination, kept in check by written documents and of course, common sense. There's also quite a few new stuff made specifically for tier 2 (look at Azabs, Akincis, and Ahis for examples). Moreover, like I said in my note, units like Yeniceris are technically high era (albeit a very "late" high era) units.

That combination of Byzantine-style klivanion and saka_cata leather lamellar skirts simply doesn't work. You better replace them with ltd lamellar models that already come with faulds.

I don't know. They look fine to me.

- T2 heavy units even seems worse compared to T1. If needed, you can retain some ltd_cwe models from T1 to T2. Especially and ltd_cwe_turk for mail+padded gambeson, ltd_cwe_ghulam for bodyguards

Define "worse".

The att_eastern_lameller looks okay-ish, but the faulds clips with the tunics badly on the sides. Also observant Attila players can tell that's the exact model used by the Alans. Try to seek other tunic cuts that won't clip.

I don't care what CA used a model for. You're right about the clipping tunic though. I'll fix that.

[xalvissx]

Beautiful roster hessam, especially with the Janissary and Kapikulu units ! Also, can the Solak serve as General Bodyguards, or are they just a normal archer unit ?

[hessam]

Also, can the Solak serve as General Bodyguards, or are they just a normal archer unit ?

They're not a bodyguard unit cuz probably no one would choose them over the Silahdars, but my opinion is that they should be capped to 1 per army, just like Peyks, in order to form the trio of the Sultan's companions in the army.

[You_Guess_Who]

while I agree with some of your criticism regarding high era units (like the Umayyad shields and greaves), I wouldn't say the high era roster was rushed. The main reason tier 2 is "less interesting" than tier 3 is that there's very little "visual" information about 14th century Ottoman military, which leads to the use of experimentation and imagination, kept in check by written documents and of course, common sense.

Fair enough.

There's also quite a few new stuff made specifically for tier 2 (look at Azabs, Akincis, and Ahis for examples). Moreover, like I said in my note, units like Yeniceris are technically high era (albeit a very "late" high era) units.

I like the T2 light and medium units, that's why I specifically point at the Heavy Units in the list. In fact, I see that all of the new stuffs in T2 are used by light and medium units, whereas Heavy Units relies on vanilla Attila parts.

I don't know. They look fine to me.

This might be personal preference, but I think Byzantine metal klivanion with Scythian leather lamellar, as worn by Noker Foot Archers and Naffatun, aren't good fit. The leather saka piece itself looks ancient and out of place. I suggest a combination of ltd_nomadic_lamellar_2/3/5 + ltd_nomadic_shoulder_2 would do better. If you want to use ave_bel series byz cuirass to show the influence of Eastern Romans, then it better be combined with long mail skirts or other ave_bel/ltd_byz made for them instead (because the cuirass model terminates at the hip rather than the waist) + ltd_nomadic_shoulders.

I don't know. They look fine to me. Define "worse". I don't care what CA used a model for.

True that CA's intention does not matter as it fits. But in comparison, ltd_cwe series armour are well-made models, and the new yushman model are great. That makes the att_eastern_lamellar+catapract arm and att_cha_lamellar_chain_sleeves looks plain and dull. I expected the T2 would be a prelude to the colorful T3, but with the rather plain models this is not apparent. The fact that in the T2 itself the medium units are more colorful than heavy noble units exacerberate the problem.

There are rather good looking heavy units, e.g. Askeri Nobles with ltd_cwe_heavy_armor series and their armour under overcoat gives a nice touch, I'll give you that. Noker HA are pretty good. Timarli Sipahi are okay minus the saka leather skirt. However the Heavy Nokers are underwhelming. Bodyguards even more so: T1 ltd_cwe_ghulam_heavy_cavalryman series model are simply more beautiful models than att_eastern_lamellar+catapract arm and att_cha_lamellar_chain_sleeves.

Yes, I know doing more texturing takes time and you don't want to get bogged down even more - so I suggest borrowing some models from zsimmortal and dontfearme to add more variety into the Heavy Nokers. The surcoat (without the yushman) worn by T3 Silahtars might can be worn on top on vanilla Attila armor for T2 officers or bodyguards.

[FrozenmenSS]

Çok güzel units guys

[hessam]

This might be personal preference, but I think Byzantine metal klivanion with Scythian leather lamellar, as worn by Noker Foot Archers and Naffatun, aren't good fit. The leather saka piece itself looks ancient and out of place. I suggest a combination of ltd_nomadic_lamellar_2/3/5 + ltd_nomadic_shoulder_2 would do better. If you want to use ave_bel series byz cuirass to show the influence of Eastern Romans, then it better be combined with long mail skirts or other ave_bel/ltd_byz made for them instead (because the cuirass model terminates at the hip rather than the waist) + ltd_nomadic_shoulders.

I'm not yet convinced about removing the saka skirts. But I'll ask a few other colleagues of ours for their opinion on the matter. If their opinion mirrors yours, then I'll remove them (the skirts not the colleagues ).

I expected the T2 would be a prelude to the colorful T3, but with the rather plain models this is not apparent. The fact that in the T2 itself the medium units are more colorful than heavy noble units exacerberate the problem.

to be fair, tier 3 light and medium units are also more colorful than tier 3 heavy units. It's because they're wearing fabric, while the heavy units are wearing "metal", for lack of a better word. You can't expect a full lamellar coat or a yushman to be colorful like a kaftan. If you compare t2 light units with t3 light units and t2 heavy units with t3 heavy units, you'll see that t2 is almost every bit as colorful as t3. Still I agree with some of your suggestions regarding armor, like adding more nomadic shoulder pieces.

ltd_cwe series armour are well-made models.

T1 ltd_cwe_ghulam_heavy_cavalryman series model are simply more beautiful models than att_eastern_lamellar+catapract arm and att_cha_lamellar_chain_sleeves.

They are all indeed great models and I've used them extensively in Tier 1 (or rather kept them in tier 1 since Ltd had already used them in the original roster). But I don't feel comfortable with using them all over again in tier 2, though I could mix one or two of them in with the current models for more variety.

[Visarion]

Yes.... much better with descr

[Visarion]

Excellent representation.


What about the "serdengecti"?

[Visarion]

Still before being included in the Kapikulu Sipahi the Crimean Oglan Uhlan Ulan should be a AoR as well with traditional Tartar gear. Alongside the "converted" one.

Ohhh and what about the Circassian AoR element. They should have self standing units... they were such important elements alongside the Tartars don't you think? Also the Serbian Knights AoR again self standing. A unit of it's own.

I suggest the above additional units basically.


And yes Noker Heavy Infantry Archers should be modified.

[Danishmend]

Amazing roster Hessam, thank you.

I really liked those units.




Let me fix some units' names (those with Turkish names and letters):

current name --> corrected name
Köylüleri --> Köylüler
Timarli Sipahis --> Tımarlı Sipahi(s)
Akincıs --> Akıncı(s)
Zırhli Yeniçeri Archers --> Zırhlı Yeniçeri Archers
Akinçıs --> Akıncı(s)



ABOUT EARLY ERA / TIER 1:

New units are great, but can you bring back some of the old models?

1. Turkoman tribal Cavalry (aka "Turkoman Raiders" before the revamp)

Can you replace the current models with old "Turkoman Raiders" models below? They were better, their shields were also better (they reminded me of Angus Mcbride's "Seljuk Turcoman" illustration). Hatless models (those with only hairbands) should also be brought back IMO.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

2. Askeri Nobles
There is a lack of variation in the current Askari Noble unit as they all have the same helmet type, can you bring back those helmets below? These are old Askeri Nobles.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

3. Bodyguards
It seems these two helmet types have been removed, can you bring them back? The more variety, the better. The overlap of helmets between some tier 1 units is harmless I think.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

4. Junior Ghulams
I like the new Junior Ghulam models, but I think they should a bit lighter. Can you remove their horse armors?


5. Senior Ghulams
Their old horse armors were better IMO.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

6. Uc Süvarileri
Since they were tribesmen, can you replace their padded armor with robes? Padded armor were not that common among Seljuks.


7. Royal Ghulams
Can you give their horses metallic lamellar armor? This one is just about aesthetics though.




HIGH ERA / TIER 2
I liked tier 2 units, you did a great job creating tier 2 roster because there isn't much visual material about early 14th century.

Apart from those Cuman helmets they look fine, Cuman helmets look a bit off. Lamellar armor was still main armor among early Ottomans so lamellar-based heavy units makes sense.

I agree with You_Guess_Who about certain things, even though I like the idea of using vanilla models in tier 2 some of those models can be modified as You_Guess_Who says. Some of those tier 2 heavy units look too "vanilla", but overall very nice job. Thank you.



LATE ERA / TIER 3​
Tier 3 simply looks amazing I can't wait to see them in action.


I wish I could give you a rep comment but I must spread some rep around before giving it to you.

[Visarion]

Naaahhh new models are better...

Just save those old ones for the Zangids

[Danishmend]

Naaahhh new models are better...

Just save those old ones for the Zangids

Well, new tier 1 models look great indeed (Ghazi Warriors, Jira-Khaars, Ghazi Lancers, Muqti etc). The things I've mentioned are about old models, bringing back those old helmets would only increase the variety.
I only want "Turkoman tribal cavalry" to be replaced with old "Turkoman Raiders" models.

[hessam]

@Danishmend:

1. if you look at the Rum roster in the current version of the mod, you'll see that there are two turcoman units, Turcoman Raiders and Turcoman Horse Archers. The unit I have here is exactly the Turcoman Horse Archers except I've added some steppe style beards. I haven't changed anything else.

2. The reason I removed those helms is that I didn't want the ruling class to have the same helmets as Ghulams who were technically their servants. But you're right. I could add some variety there.

3. not all units can have all the helmets available.

4. this was a mistake on my side. Junior Ghulams were not meant to have horse armor.

5. I personally prefer full lamellar bardings.

6. They're almost using (along with Uc Turkleri) the same model as the original Veteran Ghazis made by Ltd. I don't think there's anything wrong with them.

about the "cuman" helmets, they've only been used on Noker units many of which came from different steppe regions. So that particular helmet isn't that unlikely.
And thanks for correcting those names. I'll implement them soon.

[hessam]

Still before being included in the Kapikulu Sipahi the Crimean Oglan Uhlan Ulan should be a AoR as well with traditional Tartar gear. Alongside the "converted" one.

Ohhh and what about the Circassian AoR element. They should have self standing units... they were such important elements alongside the Tartars don't you think? Also the Serbian Knights AoR again self standing. A unit of it's own.

I suggest the above additional units basically.


And yes Noker Heavy Infantry Archers should be modified.

the Tatars that fought under the Ottomans (at least in 15th century) are always described as light horse archers will similar tactics and capabilities as the akincis. Circassian lands weren't occupied by the Ottomans until mid 16th century which is out of the mod's time frame.

[Visarion]

I only agree with You_Guess_Who with some of the elements for tge heavy tier 2 Noker Infantry like the Saka Lamellar suit of armour... it looks out of place... and out of that time... achronistic...


Btw what is Zerli Janissary? Zirhli whatever...

[Visarion]

Found it... Zhirli Nefer

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...issary&f=false

[Danishmend]

@Danishmend:

1. if you look at the Rum roster in the current version of the mod, you'll see that there are two turcoman units, Turcoman Raiders and Turcoman Horse Archers. The unit I have here is exactly the Turcoman Horse Archers except I've added some steppe style beards. I haven't changed anything else.

I know. I noticed that after release --> http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...1#post15275304

The unit labelled as "Turcoman Horse Archers" was originally created for Empire of Niceae's roster as an auxiliary unit, but they were included in Seljuk roster by mistake. http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...1#post15276831

That's why they are more expensive than Turkoman raiders even though have worse stats than Raiders. Removing the current "Turcoman Horse Archers" from the roster and bringing back old "Turcoman Raiders" would fix the problem, you can rename them as "Turcoman Horse Archers" of course.

2. The reason I removed those helms is that I didn't want the ruling class to have the same helmets as Ghulams who were technically their servants. But you're right. I could add some variety there.

3. not all units can have all the helmets available.

4. this was a mistake on my side. Junior Ghulams were not meant to have horse armor.

5. I personally prefer full lamellar bardings.

6. They're almost using (along with Uc Turkleri) the same model as the original Veteran Ghazis made by Ltd. I don't think there's anything wrong with them.

about the "cuman" helmets, they've only been used on Noker units many of which came from different steppe regions. So that particular helmet isn't that unlikely.
And thanks for correcting those names. I'll implement them soon.

Thanks.

[Visarion]

The correct name should be Zirhli Nefer. Also the Jannisary that chose to go in suicidal missions and become Sipahi, the competitive branch of the army and "betray" their brethren and their sect should be represented. The "suicidal" Janissary. Similar to Samurai I guess. Their unit's name is the family name of many Turks nowadays. Serdengecti.

Also names should be changed into Yeniceri and simply Solak without archer following. And Solak should wield the yatagan with their left hand.

[Wallachian]

Great work guys this is fantastic! Just a quick question, the Musellems seem to only be armed with swords. It seems a bit odd to have cavalry armed only with swords and no charging spear or something like that. Is this correct?