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Thread: Of Wolves and Prey [Updated: 03/01; Part III.2]

  1. #61
    Cookiegod's Avatar CIVUS DIVUS EX CLIBANO
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    Default Re: Of Wolves and Prey [Updated: 16/04; Part II.1 CHAPTER 2 BEGUN]

    Thanks for the quick feedback guys! It means a lot to me (except yours, Skotos Shame on you Now I feel bad for making a meme that's longer than what I write. ).
    If you guys have spotted some errors, let me know. I'll do a fix this evening (including recap and line-breaks).

    I'm happy that I have the right audience then. I like to have some symbolism and stuff in it.
    I somewhat broke my usual rule, that every part needs to push the story forward. This one does that, but only to a limited degree, plus some minor foreshadowing. I still find this part necessary for structural reasons, but I'm quite self-conscious not only about how slow I'm at writing, but also how it drags out (though again: I didn't find a way around it). So be sure to tell me, should you ever find it boring. I'm not here to win a participation award or something, but to become better.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegod View Post
    From Socrates over Jesus to me it has always been the lot of any true visionary to be rejected by the reactionary bourgeoisie
    Qualis noncives pereo! #justiceforcookie #egalitéfraternitécookié #CLM

  2. #62
    Skotos of Sinope's Avatar Macstre Gaposal
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    Default Re: Of Wolves and Prey [Updated: 16/04; Part II.1 CHAPTER 2 BEGUN]

    Quote Originally Posted by Kilo11 View Post
    Actually, I've been flagging your posts for moderation because of all that propaganda, but they seem to be fine with it. I suspect the TWC lords are secretly pagans trying to turn us to their heathen ways.
    Busted. Well, now that it's out there, I'll only say that one day you unbelievers will all see the light.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegod View Post
    Thanks for the quick feedback guys! It means a lot to me (except yours, Skotos Shame on you Now I feel bad for making a meme that's longer than what I write. ).
    As Gigantus is fond of saying: One is glad to be of service.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegod View Post
    If you guys have spotted some errors, let me know. I'll do a fix this evening (including recap and line-breaks).

    I'm happy that I have the right audience then. I like to have some symbolism and stuff in it.
    I somewhat broke my usual rule, that every part needs to push the story forward. This one does that, but only to a limited degree, plus some minor foreshadowing. I still find this part necessary for structural reasons, but I'm quite self-conscious not only about how slow I'm at writing, but also how it drags out (though again: I didn't find a way around it). So be sure to tell me, should you ever find it boring. I'm not here to win a participation award or something, but to become better.
    It's fine. I do like the "meta" nature of the piece. The author is struggling to write, and so is the narrator. The rule to always move the story forward in every post is a real tough one. I'm kind of regretting a similar rule, myself. I think an exception should be made for updates that gently bring the reader back into the story, as well. Sometimes, especially after a long break, the reader needs to re-acclimate and just jumping right back into the thick of the action could be a mistake.
    Last edited by Skotos of Sinope; April 17, 2019 at 01:04 PM.

  3. #63
    Swaeft's Avatar Drama King
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    Default Re: Of Wolves and Prey [Updated: 16/04; Part II.1 CHAPTER 2 BEGUN]

    You are back! Praise the Allfather!

    I'm going to echo what the others said and say that the chapter was fine, no need to worry about over symbolism But like Alwyn has said, it would be nice to have a short recap or something, and of course I'm always a fan of character lists, but that is entirely up to you. So glad to see you back in action CG!

    Just one thing, when you say you are working to make it a biweekly thing but for now can only guarantee a weekly thing, do you mean it the other way around?

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    Default Re: Of Wolves and Prey [Updated: 16/04; Part II.1 CHAPTER 2 BEGUN]

    Quote Originally Posted by Skotos of Sinope View Post
    The rule to always move the story forward in every post is a real tough one. I'm kind of regretting a similar rule, myself. I think an exception should be made for updates that gently bring the reader back into the story, as well. Sometimes, especially after a long break, the reader needs to re-acclimate and just jumping right back into the thick of the action could be a mistake.
    Yeah, but I didn't put it in because of the break. I put it in because every chapter is a structural unit, with a beginning and an end. And when the structure rhymes, such as this one does to chapter I, then that's great too. But I also made that break at that point because I knew this was the best place to do it, whilst I wrote my thesis.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swaeft View Post
    You are back! Praise the Allfather!
    Great. Put a few bible quotes in and see all the neoheathens crawl out from under their rocks
    Quote Originally Posted by Swaeft View Post
    I'm going to echo what the others said and say that the chapter was fine, no need to worry about over symbolism But like Alwyn has said, it would be nice to have a short recap or something, and of course I'm always a fan of character lists, but that is entirely up to you. So glad to see you back in action CG!
    Problem with recaps is though that you can't recap character growth that well.
    I'm not the biggest fan of character lists, and for now that list would be rather short, but I agree in that I'll need one sooner rather than later.I was thinking about making one with important characters getting comic-style pictures such as this one:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    It's very early WIP but you can see the style I'm going for.

    Quote Originally Posted by Swaeft View Post
    Just one thing, when you say you are working to make it a biweekly thing but for now can only guarantee a weekly thing, do you mean it the other way around?
    I meant semiweekly but was too retarded to know the difference.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegod View Post
    From Socrates over Jesus to me it has always been the lot of any true visionary to be rejected by the reactionary bourgeoisie
    Qualis noncives pereo! #justiceforcookie #egalitéfraternitécookié #CLM

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    Default Re: Of Wolves and Prey [Updated: 16/04; Part II.1 CHAPTER 2 BEGUN]

    Well, it wouldn't need a recap of character growth, just basic story elements to catch the reader up, but it's entirely up to you of course

    Same thing for the character list, it wouldn't have to be long, it's just really there to help readers who don't happen along too often and want to remember who is who without reading previous chapters again. Again, entirely up to you, as you have pointed out to me before, this is your story. Either way I'll be eagerly waiting

    P.S. Nice drawing! That would spice up a character list very well indeed

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    Default II.2 Melancholia

    RECAP
    • We're following the fates of three children forced from their homes at a very young age.
    • An tragic series of events has caused the deaths of Gundulfs and Aistulfs fathers, and Matteo is exiled along with them. Check out chapter I for more!
    • I promised you an exposition bomb, and now I deliver.
      Take that, Skotos! This part is longer than my meme!

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Locations & Characters in this chapter
    The valley - a fictional place in the mountains separating Liguria from Lombardy proper. Our 3 main characters hail from here, and in the distant future, a priest would be taken hostage here by an old wolf and forced to write his terribly interesting memoirs.
    Este - A castle, founded by Albert Azzo in the 1050s, when he too was in his 50s.
    Though not the castle you'll find through googling, which was built by his descendants in the middle of a city. This one I'm on about much less impressive, so that even google forgot about it. It's this one.

    Gundulf/Gandolfo - the son of a noble with the same name who once ruled the valley, had rebelled against his liege and himself died by an uprising in the wake of his defeat by the liege. Gundulf has been taken as a hostage by the liege to ensure the future loyalty of his subject.
    Matteo - the son of the richest merchant in the valley, whose power rivalled that of Gundulfs father. Matteo thus shares Gundulfs fate and is taken hostage.
    Aistulf/Astolfo - the son of a stableman executed for the murder of Gundulfs father.
    Albert/Alberto Azzo II. - Margrave, ruler of large parts of Northern Italy, including Genoa and Milan. Even at an old age, his name still commands respect and stands for energetic and decisive actions... When there are things to do.
    Welf/Guelfo - The oldest son of Albert from his first marriage. Duke of Bavaria as well as Carinthia, and Margrave of Verona. He has left his father at the age of 15, and has since only seen him on increasingly rare occasions. His power rivals that of the emperor. A capable leader, inspiring loyalty in his subjects, but not quite the accomplished politician his father and oldest brother are.
    Fulk/Fulco - The second son of Albert from his second marriage to Garsent of Maine. Less imposing as a warrior than his brother, he compensates it with his superior skills in diplomatic and political matters, as well as his cunning scheming.
    Hugh/Ugo - The third son of Albert from his second marriage. Generally considered incompetent by all, he has nevertheless gained the county of Maine for himself... Mostly thanks to his now deceased mother.


    Melancholia

    Seven is, as we all know, a sacred number. God created the world in seven days, and custom demands that a child is raised for 7 years by its mother, and then, ideally, given to another family to be brought up and taught the skills necessary for his trade.

    The circumstances under which the children had been ripped from their families were less than ideal, yet their function as hostages wasn’t supposed to be overt either. To preserve an appearance of normalcy, tradition was adhered to, and Gundulf and Matteo thus received the care they were due.
    Gundulf would stay with Albert Azzo, and serve as his page. He would follow the margrave on his travels through his vast domains that stretched from the Ligurian sea to the Adria, was properly clad and fed, and when he wasn’t servicing his lord, was taught the basics of reading and writing, and most importantly, fighting.

    Matteo shared Gundulf's journey for a while, but was ultimately given into the care of a rich Milanese merchant with strong ties to the margrave. The merchant too would often travel and take his protégé with him on his journeys, but most of Matteo’s childhood was nevertheless spent in relative safety behind city walls. His education rivaled and in certain ways even exceeded that of Gundulf, except when it came to the training of the body, but to Matteo that mattered little: He learned the art of adding and subtracting numbers according to the teachings of the wise Arab Algorismus, and soon realised that the pen was mightier than the sword, as long as the writings consisted mostly of numbers and were mirrored by appropriate amounts of gold. Fighting in battle was dangerous, after all. Paying a man to fight on your behalf, on the other hand, was not.

    Things were very different for Aistulf: He no longer had any family, nor was he, as the orphaned son of a mere stableman hanged for murder, of any value as a hostage. The margrave hadn’t forced him to leave the valley, as he’d done with the other two. Aistulf had run after them, had of his own volition chosen exile.
    Life had been hard for the child even before he had become an orphan. Adults had treated him with contempt at best, and insulted or beaten him as they saw fit. The other children had soon learned from their parents’ example and bullied him with impunity.
    So when his father had (in very short order) been accused, tried and hanged for the murder of his lord, Aistulf had, even at his tender age understood that there would be no love from the locals for him. Fear of uncertainty was nothing to the boy compared to the certain fate he knew the valley offered him. Unlike Gundulf and Matteo, no one ever forbade him to return. Unlike them, he never wished to, and he always remained silent when the others reminisced of the past.

    Memories have a funny way of changing over the passage of time, and for young children that goes double. Matteo soon only seemed to have fond memories of his home. Aistulf, on the other hand, only ever remembered the worst of it.
    None of the three had been friends before their exile. Gundulf and Matteo had inherited the rivalry of their fathers and fought each other often, and, not to be outdone by their peers, been particularly vicious to Aistulf.
    But as soon as they were on their way out, it no longer mattered. They were happy they had each other, for otherwise they would have been alone. They’d share the carriage during the day and a heap of straw during the night. The margrave and his entourage were lenient, as long as that journey lasted, and not only allowed Aistulf to travel with them, but also fed him.

    As the distance from the valley grew, so did the dependence of the children on each other. The narrow confines of the valleys became ever wider, until finally they’d arrived in the Padan plain, and in the vastness of this unfamiliar landscape the children felt completely lost. The rivers increased significantly in size, as did the cities. Their mostly Roman structures and walls, although partly in ruin, were an intimidating sight to eyes unused to such scale.
    The tongues of the children they met on the road, if they ever met any, changed significantly as well. The old Lombardic tongue of Germanic origin, which their valley still stubbornly had held on to, was entirely forgotten here – the common speech changed from the Ligurian, to the Lombard, and then finally to the Venetian variant, making the children feel ever more as strangers. Gundulf and Aistulf in particular felt their former lives to be over, as they from now on were only ever called Gandolfo and Astolfo.

    After weeks of travel, they finally arrived at their destination: The castle of Este at the southern end of the Euganean hills, which Albert Azzo himself had built. And they were allowed to stay close for a while longer, until Matteo had been handed into the care of the merchant I had mentioned to you earlier, and Aistulf was given into the care of the church. Aistulf did poorly under their custody, and, not wanting to become a monk himself, ran away, and from thereon lived an unsettled life on the streets of the cities and, whenever danger seemed imminent, that of a vagrant in the countryside.

    No one taught him to read and write in those years, nor did he learn the art of numbers. He did not learn the proper way to wield a sword either.
    But the education he received was not necessarily inferior to that of the others; it was much more focused than that of the others, on one topic only: Survival.

    The separation of the three did not end their friendship, as Matteo and Gundulf on their frequent travels always made sure to meet, whenever they were close by, and supported Aistulf whenever they could. Aistulf, bound to no place and no man, would seek them out frequently, and often relay messages between the two.
    And so their friendship held over the years, and when their encounters became infrequent in the seventh year, it did so for a reason outside of their control. It was the margrave himself.


    The initial journey by the three from their valley to the castle of Este.
    Albert Azzo's vast domain stretched from Luni in the south to the alps in the north, and from Genoa and Tortona in the West to the castle he built in the east. Hence why its name Este.


    ~~~~~~~~~~~~

    “GANDOLFO!”
    The margrave barked, and in so doing ripped the boy out of his train of thought.
    “More wine!”
    Gundulf, already holding the jug in his hands, hurried to comply.
    Albert Azzo said no more, and Gundulf thus was left to his thoughts yet again.
    The sun was still on the rise, as was evident by the few beams of light passing through the small windows, and yet here he was, alone with a grumpy old man in a tower not unlike the one he had once called his home. They were so similar, and yet so far from another. He sighed.
    How many years had it been? One, two, three… he counted silently in his head, until he finally, and with some incredulity, arrived at the seventh number. Seven? Really? Had it been that long ago?
    And yet not a single day had passed since in which he hadn’t missed it, in spite of all that had happened.
    And then his train of thoughts inevitably wandered to his friends. What were those two up to?
    There had been a time not long ago, when he had considered himself to be the lucky one of the three. But that had been before Albert had changed for the worse. The proud and energetic leader had become little more than a defeated old man, who did little but stay inside all day. And Gundulf, as his page, had to stay inside with him.
    Defeated by what, exactly? He asked himself. The margrave was, despite his Methusalemic age, still in goodpe. Ne shaver had Gundulf met anyone as old as him.
    It was the year of the Lord and Saviour 1077. Albert Azzo, once known as “the Younger” until those who remembered his father had died out, was rumoured to have been born in the previous millennium. Most people Gundulf knew had dead grandparents younger than him. Few ever lived past their forties. And yet this man was already twice that age.
    But it wouldn’t last much longer, the boy surmised. The old man’s body was still well, but his mind seemed broken. Gundulf, meanwhile, was bored out of his mind.

    The old margrave let out a long, loud sigh, once again interrupting the boy’s musings.
    “My lord”, Gundulf timidly asked: “Are you alright?”
    The old man nodded.
    “The day is still young, my lord. Shouldn’t we be outside?”
    The question made the margrave raise an eyebrow, but he decided against chiding the boy for his impertinence.
    “What for?” He asked back, rhethorically: “There’s nothing for me to do.”
    And then Albert couldn’t help himself and kept talking, less to Gundulf and increasingly to himself:
    “My holdings are doing well, and so are my children. And quite frankly, they probably all have gotten quite tired of me still being alive and will probably be elated once the Almighty finally grants me death.”
    “My lord…” Gundulf tried to protest, but the margrave ignored him:
    “I haven’t seen my first-born son, Welf, for many years now.
    I understand...
    He’s doing far better than I ever have. His uncle died when he was about your age, and Welf left to claim his inheritance. More than 3 decades have passed since. He is a duke, now holds more land than I ever did… Two duchies!” He gestured wildly with two of his fingers and looked angrily at Gundulf, who was visibly taken aback.
    “Two duchies!” Albert repeated: “And I never even held one! So why would the venerable duke of Bavaria, Carinthia, and, let not forget, the margraviate of Verona, waste his time with a lousy marchio [Italian for margrave] such as me?”
    “My lord, you’re still one of the mightiest rulers in Italy.” Gundulf was about to object, never even considering talking about love.
    The margrave luckily didn’t notice that slip, as he was ignoring the boy whilst simultaneously talking to him, and continued: “Then there’s my youngest son, Hugh. Incompetent fool, and I’m ashamed to admit he’s the product of my loins. But no matter. His mother has taken care of him and set him up for good. He’s ruling Maine now. Do you even know where that is?”
    Gundulf could but shake his head.
    “West of Paris.” Albert immediately informed him.
    And not bothering to ask the boy if he knew where Paris was (he did not), the margrave continued:
    “And last but not least there’s my second son, Fulk, the cunning weasel! Not a single honourable bone his body.
    And yet he’s my son! I made him that way! Whether I pride myself for it or not!
    So he’s traveling and governing my land as we speak, and the only thing more repugnant to me than his character is the fact that he’s doing fine.
    Do you think he or our subjects would be amused if I were to meddle?
    Things are being done differently now, he tells me all the time, and he’s right! I’m from a different time! So I’ll stay here!”
    The margrave had become ever more emotional and louder during his speech, before suddenly pausing. There was a moment of silence, as Gundulf had wisened up and was reluctant to respond.
    “I tried to fight it.” Albert finally spoke, quietly, just as Gundulf was about to open his mouth.
    “To belong to the nobility used to mean something. Most of my vassals are ruling over subjects that are richer than them now. The cities and the bishops are taking over everything. Blood doesn’t matter. Coin purses do. And I, ever the fool, tried to stick to the old ways.”

    There was another uncomfortable pause.

    “I built this castle here.” Albert remarked, with bitterness in his voice: “A place to impress my subjects. A monument, future generations would remember me by. A castle that’d make my descendants so proud, they’d name themselves after it! House of Este! How does that sound?!”
    He made a short laugh, before immediately reverting to his old depressed tone:
    “Or so I thought. What I really built is my retirement home. So far out of the way that people will soon forget about it. The future belongs to the cities. I should have built my castle inside one of them instead and ruled from there.”

    Another moment of silence, and this time, the margrave grew annoyed by the lack of response.
    “Your father used to fight that as well.” He remarked bitterly: “And that’s what cost him his life.”
    “What do you mean?” Gundulf asked, but never received an answer.
    The door opened and a man hurried in to announce the unexpected arrival of a Milanese merchant requesting an audience.
    And sure enough: Gundulf saw an all too familiar face smile at him through the open door.


    Update
    Sorry for the delay. Unfortunately, even with the rewrite it's still quite long. It shows that I once imagined a whole chapter to be about those years, especially Aistulf. I axed it for good reasons, but nevertheless felt it important to establish their relationship and personal backgrounds, as well as that the real historical background. It's a bit complicated, but most things mentioned aren't told merely on a "good to know" basis, but rather to serve the plot moving forward. It is a little bit complicated, but I like to have some political scheming, which we'll have a lot of in the near future updates. I have some subtle references to real history which I don't spell out overtly, as you don't need to know them to understand the story, and most certainly don't need me to fill your heads with even more nonsense. Except in the character list. Isn't that what it's for?

    Another reason for my delay is the map. I hoped to make it better, but failed to find the time. Ironically, the reasons for my struggle with maps is the same as with writing. I tend to make them a bit too complicated and crowded, and then I give up. So this one is a bit bare, and I'd like you instead to tell me which things you think I should add to it.

    As always, give me your blood feedback!
    Is there too much text? Is it too boring? Are there tipos, punc.tuation errors or grammatically mistakes? Where?! I need to know!!!!!!!
    And what about my recaps & character lists? Never mind, I'm too scared of the answer to that one.
    Last edited by Cookiegod; May 05, 2019 at 06:11 AM. Reason: A ton of thanks to Kilo!

  7. #67
    NorseThing's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Of Wolves and Prey [Updated: 24/04; Part II.2]

    The amount of text is always subjective. Enough to complete the idea is enough text. Writing more or less than what you really want to convey signs. Yours, seems about right for the idea presented. I read through and enjoyed the read. To be honest, I tend to shoot for 1000 or there about for the word count. But then, I tend to ramble on without some firm directives.

    I did find the beginning most interesting with the number 7 and being ripped from the mother. That had me hooked to finish no matter the word count!

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    Swaeft's Avatar Drama King
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    Default Re: Of Wolves and Prey [Updated: 24/04; Part II.2]

    Lovely descriptions and a very nice looking map! Interesting take on politics as well from the margrave's conversation. Reminds me of Tywin and Arya from GoT Looking forward to more!

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    Default Re: Of Wolves and Prey [Updated: 24/04; Part II.2]

    Nice part, even thought it needed a while (just like a good old whisky, eh?). It did not feel like a exposition bomb. More like a nice little new part in itself. A lot of good information on the three fellas, even thought they are overshadowed by the much more interesting Albert Azzo. That thing with the language barrier was a nice little detail. Helped to feel the little guys struggle even more.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegod View Post
    Locations & Characters in this chapter
    That and the recap was very helpful and really interesting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegod View Post
    A castle that’d make my descendants so proud, they’d name themselves after it! House of Este! How does that sound?!
    Oh, I see what you did there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegod View Post
    So this one is a bit bare, and I'd like you instead to tell me which things you think I should add to it.
    A bit "bare". Heh. And I was about to say that it has a few too many rivers. Are they all necessary?
    A few trees or symbols could do nice as eyecandy - if you want. The overview of the map is nice as it is and helped a lot.
    Love all the background details.

  10. #70
    Cookiegod's Avatar CIVUS DIVUS EX CLIBANO
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    Default Re: Of Wolves and Prey [Updated: 24/04; Part II.2]

    Thanks for the feedback so far, guys! I'm very grateful for it.
    I updated the map with very very slight changes. So slight you might not even notice them.
    I still can't say for sure when the next part comes out, with orthodox easter being now and my mother on visit. On the other hand, it's basically done. Worst case would be next thursday. If I get a bit of quiet time earlier and don't have to rewrite it all, I might post it much sooner.

    Quote Originally Posted by NorseThing View Post
    The amount of text is always subjective. Enough to complete the idea is enough text. Writing more or less than what you really want to convey signs. Yours, seems about right for the idea presented. I read through and enjoyed the read. To be honest, I tend to shoot for 1000 or there about for the word count. But then, I tend to ramble on without some firm directives.

    I did find the beginning most interesting with the number 7 and being ripped from the mother. That had me hooked to finish no matter the word count!
    I'm grateful to hear that it didn't look too long and that the "7" intro worked out: The beginning was by far the hardest thing about this part, forced me to do the complete rewrite.
    I needed the narration to be somewhat continuous from the last part. Sudden changes in narration would be off-putting, if one were to read them in one go.
    The other reason is of course that I needed to justify as to why I'm speed-running through 7 years. The 7 intro does both of those things.
    The fact it didn't feel too long is good for obvious reasons. It means I was able to keep it focused and keep you interested.

    At the same time, I feel this also shows the problem any long text in the TWC has. If they're too long less people decide to read it.
    I didn't check the word count before you mentioned it. It's 2270 words. A lot. :O
    Quote Originally Posted by Swaeft View Post
    Lovely descriptions and a very nice looking map! Interesting take on politics as well from the margrave's conversation. Reminds me of Tywin and Arya from GoT Looking forward to more!
    I didn't even think about them when I wrote it, but I know what you mean.

    Now that I think of it I suspect you might be reminded of GoT very often in the future. GRRM focused a lot on character development, and so do I. And their characters frequently talk about politics, intrigues, and strategising war. ...And so do I. It's an easy way to both communicate what's going on and simultaneously show what the characters are about.
    Quote Originally Posted by Derc View Post
    Nice part, even thought it needed a while (just like a good old whisky, eh?). It did not feel like a exposition bomb. More like a nice little new part in itself. A lot of good information on the three fellas, even thought they are overshadowed by the much more interesting Albert Azzo. That thing with the language barrier was a nice little detail. Helped to feel the little guys struggle even more.
    Thanks my friend. For the praise and the inspiration.
    Quote Originally Posted by Derc View Post
    A bit "bare". Heh. And I was about to say that it has a few too many rivers. Are they all necessary?
    A few trees or symbols could do nice as eyecandy - if you want. The overview of the map is nice as it is and helped a lot.
    Love all the background details.
    It's a bit of both, isn't it? The bottom right is definitely crowded when it comes to rivers. The truth is I did those rivers near Forli later. Didn't know what rivers were special there, and also wanted to be quick about it. So I drew them all to delete them later if I needed to. I obviously then forgot to do that.

    Other than that, I tried to be a bit picky with them. If they're significant or important in their own right, I put them in. If they have a strategic value or indicate where some important valleys are (you can identify some of the major roads & passes crossing the mountains thanks to them), I put them in. If there's a city nearby I left them in, since they're hugely important as trade arteries and for water supply.
    I try doing symbols but I often fail. But I agree in that I should at least differentiate between cities, abbeys & castles. I'll do that in the future.
    I'm thinking about putting trade resources in as well.

    If you guys have more ideas as to what I should put in, or some comments even on the finer stuff (font, linestyle, colours) I'm all ears!

    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegod View Post
    From Socrates over Jesus to me it has always been the lot of any true visionary to be rejected by the reactionary bourgeoisie
    Qualis noncives pereo! #justiceforcookie #egalitéfraternitécookié #CLM

  11. #71
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    Default Re: Of Wolves and Prey [Updated: 24/04; Part II.2]

    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegod View Post
    I still can't say for sure when the next part comes out, with orthodox easter being now ...
    Bah. Heathen.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegod View Post
    ... and my mother on visit.
    She can help you writing it. I'm sure she is as twisted as you are.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegod View Post
    At the same time, I feel this also shows the problem any long text in the TWC has. If they're too long less people decide to read it.
    I didn't check the word count before you mentioned it. It's 2270 words. A lot. :O
    I didn't even think about them when I wrote it, but I know what you mean.
    Reading length is very subjective. It also depends on how often you publish a new part. Last part was just right (can only speak of myself, however).

    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegod View Post
    Now that I think of it I suspect you might be reminded of GoT very often in the future.
    I though you disliked GoT? Wouldn't that also mean you dislike your own AAR? Yeah, you already said that somewhere.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegod View Post
    Thanks my friend. For the praise and the inspiration.
    Good, good. He finally thinks I'm a friend. Now's the time to strike.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegod View Post
    I try doing symbols but I often fail.
    Not everyone understands symbolism.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegod View Post
    But I agree in that I should at least differentiate between cities, abbeys & castles. I'll do that in the future.
    I'm thinking about putting trade resources in as well.
    That sounds good.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegod View Post
    If you guys have more ideas as to what I should put in, or some comments even on the finer stuff (font, linestyle, colours) I'm all ears!
    Finer stuff? Yeah, there's missing something in your AAR, obviously!
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    A fine Scotch Single Malt instead of your rubbish Irish Bourbon, that is!


    PS:


    I like your status.

  12. #72

    Default Re: II.2 Melancholia

    Hey man, sorry it took me so long to get to this. I wanted to give you good feedback, but knew I wouldn't unless I waited for a moment when I was really "feeling it". Anyway, I've now read it, and I like this one as well, but honestly, not as much as some of the earlier installments. Part of that might well just be you getting back into things, part might just be my tastes, and part might be something else. But honest assessment, I think this worked just fine, but could definitely be improved in a variety of ways. (And to be clear, I'm hounding you because I know you can do better, and I therefore feel good pushing you )

    Anyway, for purposes of my ease with edits, I have simply put your whole text in a contentbox and edited inline. The first box is simple edits and suggestions, while the second one is larger thoughts and comments I had. Let me know if any don't make sense, or if you think I've missed something vital.

    Edits

    There are some mistakes in the Recap/Character+Locations boxes, but I assume those are not so important to you, and I leave you to sort them out

    Melancholia

    7 is, as we all know, a sacred number. God created the world in 7 days, and custom demands that a child is raised for 7 years by its mother, and then, ideally, is given to another family to be brought up and teached taught the skills necessary for his trade.[Regarding "7", I think single digit numbers are standardly spelled out. I can see why you might want the actual number here for story purposes, but I thought I'd just mention the usual way of doing it.]

    The circumstances under which the children had been ripped by from their families were less than ideal, yet their function as hostages wasn’t supposed to be overt either.[The preceding sentence has an odd logical structure. You are essentially writing "A, yet B", but the B phrase doesn't seem to link in an intuitive way to the A phrase, making it unclear why you've placed them in this particular logical connection to one another. Not sure what to do about that (if anything) but it might be worth considering a change.] To preserve an appearance of normalcy, tradition was adhered to, and Gundulf and Matteo thus received the care they were due.
    Gundulf would stay with Albert Azzo, and served as his page. He would follow the margrave on his near-constant [this descriptor seems unnecessary to me] travels through his vast domains that stretched from the Ligurian sea to the Adria,. He was properly clad and fed, and when he wasn’t servicing his lord, he was teached taught the basics on how to write and read, and, most importantly, on how to fight.of reading and writing, and most importantly, fighting.

    Matteo shared Gundulf#s journey for a while, but was ultimately given into the care of a rich Milanese merchant with strong ties to the margrave. The merchant too would often travel and take his protégé with him on his journeys, but most of Matteo’s childhood was nevertheless spent in relative safety behind city walls. His education would rivaled and in certain ways even exceeded that of Gundulf, except when it came to physical education [Something about this phrase seems odd to me; it makes me think of school too much, and takes me out of the medieval feeling of things.], but to him that mattered little: Matteo learned the art of adding and subtracting numbers from another according to the teachings of the wise aArab Algorismus, and soon realised that the pen was mightier than the sword, as so long as the writings consisted mostly of numbers and were backed up [Too modern of an expression. I'd suggest something like "emboldened" or "bolstered".] by appropriate amounts of gold. Fighting in a battle was dangerous, after all. Paying a man to fight on your behalf, on the other hand, was not.

    Things, however, were very different for Aistulf, however. He had no longer had any family left whatsoever, nor was he, as the orphaned son of a mere stableman hanged for murder, of any value as a hostage. The margrave hadn’t forced him to leave the valley, as he’d done with the other two. Aistulf had run after them, had out of his own volition chosen exile.
    Life had been bad [I am being nitpicky here, and drawing from my own area of expertise, but I take exception to the use of "bad" here. It is contentious whether life can be "bad" for anyone. It can be hard or easy, but it is the precondition for any pleasure or well-being or other positive value, and for that reason I wouldn't say that life itself is ever bad. But again, I'm just being a pain in the ass ]for the child even before he had become an orphan. Adults had treated him with contempt at best, and insulted or beaten him as they had seensaw fit. The other children had soon learned from their parents’ example and bullied him mercilessly.
    So when his father had (in very short order) been accused, trialled tried, and hanged for the murder of his lord, Aistulf had, even at his very tender age, understood that there would be no love in this the valley for him. Fear of uncertainty was nothing to the boy compared to the certain fate he knew this the valley offered him. Unlike Gundulf and Matteo, no one ever forbade him to return to the valley[You're saying "valley" too many times.] to his forsaken home. UAnd unlike them, he also never wanted wished to, and he always remained silent when the others reminisced of the past.

    Memories have a funny way of changing over the passage of time, and for young children that goes double. Matteo soon only seemed to have fond memories of his home. Aistulf, on the other hand, only ever remembered the worst of it.
    None of the three had been friends during their time in the valley. Gundulf and Matteo had inherited the rivalry of their fathers and fought each other often, and, not to be outdone by their peers, been particularly vicious to Aistulf.
    But as soon as they were on their way out of the valley, it no longer mattered. They were happy they had each other, for otherwise they would have been alone. They’d share the carriage during the day and a heap of straw during the night. The margrave and his entourage were lenient, as long as that journey lasted, and not only allowed Aistulf to travel with them, but also gave him to eatfed him.

    As their distance of from the valley grew, so did the dependence of the children on each other. The narrow confines of the valleys became ever wider, until finally they’d arrived in the Padan plain, and in the vastness of this unfamiliar landscape the children felt completely lost. The rivers increased significantly in size, as did the cities, whose mostly Roman structures and walls, although partly in ruin, were an intimidating sight to eyes unused to such scale.[The clauses of this sentence are slightly confusing. Maybe you could split it into two sentences somehow.]
    The tongues of the children they met on the road, if they ever met any, changed significantly as well. Not only was tthe old Lombardic tongue of Germanic origin, which their valley still stubbornly had held on to, was entirely forgotten here – the Italian dialects spoken changed significantly from Ligurian, to the Lombard, and then finally to the Venetian variant, making the children feel ever more as the strangers.[I know an Italian guy from this region, and he would say that even today "Italian" is something of a construct, used only for people to talk to others from distant parts of the country. Given that, I find it odd that you would use "Italian" in the story, as I am pretty sure it does not exist at this time as a language.] Gundulf and Aistulf in particular felt their former lives to be over, as they from now on were only ever called Gandolfo and Astolfo.

    After weeks of travel, they finally arrived at their destination: The castle of Este at the southern end of the Euganean hills, which Albert Azzo himself had built. And they were allowed to stay close for a while longer, until Matteo had been handed in to the care of the merchant I had mentioned to you earlier [This is a weird break in the fourth wall. Is this phrase necessary?] and Aistulf was given into the care of the church. Aistulf did poorly in their care, and, not wanting to become a monk himself, ran away at some point, and from thereon lived an unsettled life on the streets of the cities and, whenever danger seemed imminent, that of a vagrant in the countryside.

    No one taught him to read and write in those years, nor did he learn the art of adding and subtracting numbers. He didn’t not learn the proper way to wield a sword either, or how to ride a horse.
    But the education he got received was not necessarily inferior to that of the others;. I it was much more focused than that of the others, on one topic only: Survival.

    The separation of the three did not end their friendship, as Matteo and Gundulf on their frequent travels always made sure to meet, whenever they were close by, and supported Aistulf whenever they could. Aistulf, bound to no place and no man, would seek them out frequently, and often relay messages between the two.
    And so their friendship held over the years, and when their encounters became infrequent in the seventh year, it did so for a reason outside of their control. It was the margrave himself.

    Map

    “GANDOLFO!”
    The margrave barked, and in so doing ripped the boy out of his train of thought.
    “More wine!”
    Gundulf, already holding the jug in his hands, hurried to comply.
    Albert Azzo said no more, and Gundulf thus was left to his thoughts yet again.
    The sun was still on the rise, as was evident by the few beams of light passing through the small windows, and yet here he was, alone with a grumpy old man in a tower not unlike the one he had once called his home. They were so similar, and yet so far away [This is an odd expression, as it doesn't fit well with the concept of similarity.]. He sighed.
    How many years had it been now? 1… 2… 3… he counted silently in his head, until he finally, and with some incredulity, arrived at the seventh number. 7? Really? Had it been that long ago?
    And yet, not a single day had passed since in which he hadn’t missed it,. I in spite of all that had happened.
    And then his train of thoughts inevitably wandered to his friends. What were those two up to?
    There had been a time not long ago, when he had considered himself to be the lucky one of the three. But that had been before Albert had changed for the worse[That he changed for the worse is something you should (and do) show, rather than tell.]. The proud and energetic leader had now become little more than a defeated old man, who in these days did little but stay inside all day. And Gundulf, as his page, had to stay inside with him.
    Defeated by what, exactly? He asked himself. The margrave was, despite his methusalemic [Shouldn't this be capitalized?] age, still in peak form. Never had Gundulf met anyone as old as him.
    It was the year of the lLord and sSaviour 1077.[Since the monk is the writer here, every religious thing should be capitalized (in my opinion). That's the way it is in the Bible, and that's the way a religiously educated man of the time would write it.] Albert Azzo “the younger” (his father had had the same name) was rumoured to have been born in the previous millennium. Most people Gundulf knew had dead grandparents younger than him. Few ever lived past their forties. And yet this man was already twice that age.
    But it wouldn’t last much longer, the boy surmised. The old man’s body was still well, but his mind seemed broken. Gundulf, meanwhile, was bored out of his mind.
    The old margrave let out a long, loud sigh, once again interrupting the boy’s musings.
    “My lord”, Gundulf timidly asked: “Are you alright?”
    The old man nodded.
    “The day is still young, my lord. Shouldn’t we be outside?”
    The question made the margrave raise an eyebrow, but he decided against chiding the boy for his impertinence.
    “What for?” He asked back, rhethorically: “There’s nothing for me to do.”
    And then Albert couldn’t help himself and kept talking, less to Gundulf and increasingly to himself:
    “My holdings are doing well, and so are my children. And quite frankly, they probably all have gotten quite tired of me still being alive and will probably be elated once the Almighty finally grants me death.”
    “My lord…” Gundulf tried to protest, but the margrave ignored him:
    “I haven’t seen my first-born son, Welf, for many years now.
    I understand...
    He’s doing far better than I ever have. His uncle died when he was about your age, and Welf left to claim his inheritance. More than 3 decades have passed since. He is a duke, now holds more land than I ever did… Two duchies!” He gestured wildly with two of his fingers and looked angrily at Gundulf, who was visibly taken aback.
    “Two duchies!” Albert repeated: “And I never even held one! So why would the venerable duke of Bavaria, Carinthia, and, let us not forget, the margraviate of Verona, waste his time with a lousy marchio [Italian for margrave] [Same point as bove; I would avoid the term "Italian" and instead use some other linguistic marker (e.g. Lombardic).] such as me?”
    “My lord, you’re still one of the mightiest rulers in Italy [And again.].” Gundulf was about to object, never even considering talking about love.[Huh? What's love got to do, got to do with it? (Sorry, I had to ) This sort of seems to come out of nowhere, as love hasn't been mentioned, and doesn't seem at place in this conversation anyway.]
    The margrave luckily didn’t notice that slip-up, as he was ignoring the boy whilst simultaneously talking to him, and continued: “Then there’s my youngest son, Hugh. Incompetent fool, and I’m ashamed to admit he’s the product of my loins. But no matter. His mother has taken care of him and set him up for good. He’s ruling Maine now. Do you even know where that is?”
    Gundulf could but barely shake his head.
    “West of Paris.” Albert immediately informed him.
    And not bothering to ask the boy if he knew where Paris was (he did not), the margrave continued:
    “And last but not least there’s my second son, Fulk, the cunning weasel! Not a single honourable bone his body.
    And yet he’s my son! I made him that way! Whether I pride myself for it or not!
    So he’s traveling and governing my land as we speak, and the only thing more repugnant to me than his character is the fact that he’s doing fine.
    Do you think he or our subjects would be amused if I were to meddle?
    Things are being done differently now, he tells me all the time, and he’s right! I’m from a different time! So I’ll stay here!”
    The margrave had become ever more emotional and louder during his speech, before suddenly pausing. There was a moment of silence, as Gundulf had wisened up [Seems too modern of an expression.] and was reluctant to respond.
    “I tried to fight it.” Albert finally spoke, quietly, just as Gundulf was about to open his mouth.
    “To belong to the nobility used to mean something. Most of my vassals are ruling over subjects that are richer than them now. The cities and the bishops are taking over everything over now. Blood doesn’t matter. Coin purses do. And I, ever the fool, tried to stick to the old ways.”

    There was another uncomfortable pause.

    “I built this castle here.” Albert remarked, with bitterness in his voice: “A place to impress my subjects. A monument, future generations would remember me by. A castle that’d make my descendants so proud, they’d name themselves after it! House of Este! How does that sound?!”
    He made a short laugh, before immediately reverting to his old depressed tone:
    “Or so I thought. What I really built is my retirement home [Also seems too modern of an idea. Maybe something like "house of exile"]. So far out of the way that people will soon forget about it. The future belongs to the cities. I should have built my castle inside one of them instead and ruled from there.”

    Another moment of silence, and this time, the margrave grew annoyed by the lack of response.
    “Your father used to fight that as well.” He remarked bitterly: “And that’s what cost him his life.”
    “What do you mean?” Gundulf asked, but never received an answer.
    The door opened and a man hurried in to announce the unexpected arrival of a Milanese merchant requesting an audience.
    And sure enough,: Gundulf saw an all too familiar face smile at him through the open door.


    Thoughts/Comments

    Spacing: Seriously dude, if I was close enough, I would whack you upside the head for this one! Why aren't paragraphs offset appropriately with spaces? It makes it so much harder to follow visually (and is, not to mention, incorrect). It is especially problematic in the areas with a lot of dialogue. For yourself, I think a bit more attention to the spacing and paragraphing might also help you keep your flow in the writing, and keep the ideas more separated. This isn't argumentative writing, but some of the same rules and guidelines still apply, and I think the "one core idea per paragraph" point holds here as well.

    Show, don't tell: In the "backstory" part above the map, there seemed to be a lot of "They did this. Then they did that. These people were here at this time." That is okay now and again, and especially if you want/need a small exposition bomb (like an exposition hand-grenade, for example ), but in my opinion it went on for too long here, making this intro seem to sort of drag on after a while. I would mainly just suggest some elaboration in descriptions there, to liven the bit up, and to break apart all of the tellings of what went on. Just show me more

    Who's talking: One thing that I think you should think about more is who the narrator is at each point. This is something you have noticed yourself before, but I feel that it is creeping in in this update. Is the stuff here what the monk is writing down? Is it what the "Old Wolf" is telling him? Is it what you, as a modern author, are telling us? It would help clarity and tightness of focus if you decide very clearly who is telling us each section, and make sure the information and style follows what makes sense from that teller's perspective. It will also help you a lot with your own writing, by just simplifying everything. I mean, obviously you'll need to think about more at the outset (what does the monk know, how would he talk, etc...), but then you can limit the exposition to fit that narrator, which will make the end-product a bit more straightforward.


    Alright. I think I have left you with enough (probably too much) stuff to think about already, so I will leave off for now. Again, as always, these are my thoughts, and not injunctions to do such and such. So take or leave them. And again, I do really like this story and the presentation, so don't take this as a take-down or anything. It is because I like it and find it to be well-done that I criticize with such force. I believe in you God of Cookies!
    Last edited by Kilo11; May 03, 2019 at 03:26 AM. Reason: I'm an idiot
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  13. #73
    Turkafinwë's Avatar The Sick Baby Jester
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    Default Re: II.2 Melancholia

    I enjoyed this one (melancholy is always a winner in my book)! The map is, like Derc already pointed out, a bit too crowded with rivers for my taste (like you said around the Forli area specifically). I do like my maps simple. Do not get me wrong, the map is good and very helpful. In other words I wholeheartedly agree with Derc on the design of the map. I know adding symbols to a map is very tricky because first you have find/create one to your liking and then place it on the map and hope it doesn't look abolutely godawful meaning you can start over. I understand the horrors of creation when you're a perfectionist, nothing is ever good enough. Yet it has to be finished if we want to move forward. I do like the style and colours you are using for this map, very pleasing to the eye I find.

    For reading length I believe it should depend on what you wish to convey. I don't adhere to a certain rule and let the chapters "flow" into existence as it were. Though they all mostly end up between 1500 and 2000 words. Sure this post is a bit longer than your previous posts but it didn't feel too long. It read very smoothly and didn't drag on. Like NorseThing said, I was immediatly drawn into the text from the first sentence.

    To repeat myself, I really liked it!

  14. #74
    Cookiegod's Avatar CIVUS DIVUS EX CLIBANO
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    Default Re: II.2 Melancholia

    Quote Originally Posted by Turkafinwë View Post
    I enjoyed this one (melancholy is always a winner in my book)! The map is, like Derc already pointed out, a bit too crowded with rivers for my taste (like you said around the Forli area specifically). I do like my maps simple. Do not get me wrong, the map is good and very helpful. In other words I wholeheartedly agree with Derc on the design of the map. I know adding symbols to a map is very tricky because first you have find/create one to your liking and then place it on the map and hope it doesn't look abolutely godawful meaning you can start over. I understand the horrors of creation when you're a perfectionist, nothing is ever good enough. Yet it has to be finished if we want to move forward. I do like the style and colours you are using for this map, very pleasing to the eye I find.

    For reading length I believe it should depend on what you wish to convey. I don't adhere to a certain rule and let the chapters "flow" into existence as it were. Though they all mostly end up between 1500 and 2000 words. Sure this post is a bit longer than your previous posts but it didn't feel too long. It read very smoothly and didn't drag on. Like NorseThing said, I was immediatly drawn into the text from the first sentence.

    To repeat myself, I really liked it!
    Thanks a lot Turk!

    Map:
    Those symbols I made didn't feel right on the map, and the dots were kinda the (don't know the proper English term for it) "Notlösung".
    I think I'll replace a few of them with coats of arms (mainly castles), maybe another symbol for ecclesiastical stuff and maybe anchors for harbours, but other than that I felt a bit out of my depth.

    I think I'll delete many of those rivers at some point, especially in the Forli area.

    Skotos, please do not read this before you read parts 2.1-2.3 and given me your feedback! Thx! XOXO :luv:
    Quote Originally Posted by Kilo11 View Post
    Hey man, sorry it took me so long to get to this. I wanted to give you good feedback, but knew I wouldn't unless I waited for a moment when I was really "feeling it". Anyway, I've now read it, and I like this one as well, but honestly, not as much as some of the earlier installments. Part of that might well just be you getting back into things, part might just be my tastes, and part might be something else. But honest assessment, I think this worked just fine, but could definitely be improved in a variety of ways. (And to be clear, I'm hounding you because I know you can do better, and I therefore feel good pushing you )
    Hey man,
    huge thanks for your feedback! It was well worth the wait.
    I'm a feedback-junkie in general, but I absolutely adore (in lack of a better word) "negative" comments.
    They give you the best ways to grow, and if I were to dislike it, I could simply ignore it.

    The thoughts you gave me were pretty much what I was looking for. I think it's the strongest criticism I've received so far from you and also very good one at that.
    In this case I'm mostly in agreement with you. I did practically all your edits. In some cases I came up with some other solutions to problems you pointed out.

    Paragraphs/linebreaks/spacing:
    Well there's no nice way to put it: I'm at those. Especially on the forum. It looks normal when you're envisioning it on a normal page, but here the text gets stretched so wide, it feels weird and I might make some wrong changes (not that they were good before). So yeah. I'm aware of the problem but don't know how to solve it. Further advice would be appreciated. Though I'll give it another go soonish and try to fix it.

    Language/Italian stuff:
    Well you're partially right, partially wrong. Lombard and many other regional languages in Italy are recognised as minority languages by the UNESCO, but only as dialects by the Italians & Swiss.
    They stem from different subgroups of the Romance language family and thus the UNESCO classification is strictly speaking more correct. However, Italy has sadly been going the same way as much of the rest of Europe, as has been my own experience (don't speak Italian, but several members of my family do and Italy isn't that far off), and the main dialects are taking over everything. Meaning whatever Lombard is now or used to be, is more and more coming in alignment with main Italian (which is btw. the Firenze dialect/language).

    Speaking Italian: You're objecting to that word, but I have to use it.
    Here's why:
    1) There's Germanic Lombard and Romance Lombard. So to avoid confusion I try to not overuse it.
    2) Italy as a political entity did exist, and the people were generally aware of their mutual intelligibility. Firenze on the other hand, was nowhere near as powerful as it'd later become. And Dante, who had a huge impact on language, didn't live yet, nor did Machiavelli or the other Florentine writers. So if you'd asked people of that era what they'd consider the most common language on the peninsula, they'd much more likely pointed to Lombard than to any other language. Especially since the Germanic heritage was still fresh at that point. So Italian then =/= Italian now; if that makes sense?
    3) The only other term to talk about the non-Germanic languages there and distinguish later Lombard from the Germanic one would be "Romance". Which I would be mocked dercilessly for.
    Dammit I've been burned before! I cannot allow it! :'( Kidding aside: Romance also refers to the Iberian and French languages. So I'm probably going to use that term regardless.

    Bottom line here: I'm in agreement with you that those local languages differ significantly, which is why I pointed them out in the first place (and I aim to use those as a story teling device in the future). They were significant enough that the children would feel even more abandoned, but not to the point that the mutual intelligibility wouldn't work out.

    Show/don't tell:
    The criticism you gave me is exactly the criticism I'd have given the author, if it hadn't been me. I think I referenced to that rule to you with regards to Mubsamat, and I felt quite guilty about it with this one (which is why I talked about exposition bomb).
    And yes, normally I'd agree. Except there's another rule: "Do break rules but only if you have a good reason to do so."
    But here I'm forced to push the story forward. It's a structural problem, due to my "planning" (or lack thereof) in the beginning.
    Those years between 7 and 14 were supposed to have their own chapter, before I realised how long that would be (and take me), so I had to axe it for all the right reasons.
    They will still be referenced in the future, and it's got enough stuff to fill a spin-off semi-short story in the creative writings department, except I'm slow enough as it is and I know exactly what my own reaction to a prequel would be:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    So this story needs to work without those 7 years told too much but on the other hand they still happened (in my head). The characters at 14 are also shaped by those 7 years, so I can't simply cut it out.
    So I established the most relevant parts that happened in those years now. There'll be a bit of another exposition blast in the next part, but generally I try to refrain from having them at all and I also tried to minimise it here.
    Still though: Your criticism is very valid here. It doesn't matter what the reasons were, if they e.g. make the reader enjoy the story less or make him stop reading it all together.
    You bringing it up is a good reminder that I should not make them a habit. I generally try to do exposition through dialogue, or other things that drive the story forward. Not through other measures.

    Which brings me to:

    Narration styles:
    Again: If I ignore the circumstances that led me down this path I'd agree with you 100%. With those circumstances it's still 50%.

    One factor in all of this is that I'm playing around with narration styles. Another is that knowing the narrator in this case would not be enough to explain the style.
    A priest chronicling the events would not tell them that way. In that case I could have almost no dialogue, no telling of feelings, and so on. I actually do have the chronicles from a Milanese monk from around that time, which does give an entertaining read, and which I emulated to a very slight degree (using bible quotes, for example).
    The circumstances under which this narration came to be is the subject of the priest/old wolf story line. It's less straightforward than I let on, and though I do drop hints and foreshadow from time to time (e.g. in 2.1), it'd take some deductive reasoning to figure it out ("if this, then this, then this"), plus you have to notice those few isolated sentences in the first place that contradict the impression I'm pushing.
    It'd spoil the priest/old wolf arc if I were to tell those circumstances.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Also partly the result of my earlier bad planning, which I mentioned earlier: My initial intention had been to publish them alternately. Story line A, then B, then A again, then B... This as we know didn't happen. Instead we had several parts of A before we got to B, and A is at the limit of where it's allowed to b, if you pardon the pun.
    This chapter is therefore compensating and pushing the other narrative hard.


    But that isn't meant to justify myself, because that still leaves the 50% I agree with you on. Namely: If the narrative changes are too stark for the reader, then that's obviously a problem. I'm actually very relieved you brought it up, because I was concerned with it as well, and had even asked Skotos prior to your criticism to wait with reading chapter 2 until the first three parts were up (hence the contentbox). One of the main reasons being the narrative changes. I tried to alleviate it, e.g. by having call-backs, such as the number 7, but yeah.

    It's also important to me to clarify that my reply isn't meant to invalidate your criticism or defend myself, I give you some insight/context in the decision making process I went through, but this ultimately should have little to no impact on your criticism as a reader.
    For one, just because I made this here as a conscious trade-off, doesn't mean that I don't do full-on mistakes, and secondly, just because I made this trade-off doesn't mean that it's necessarily good.
    So please do give me a come-back on this one, and try to quantify how "bad" (I know, I know!!!) those narrative things felt to you. I'm stuck in the "not the reader" perspective, when it's the reader perspective that ultimately matters. The quantifying bit in particular might be a weird request, but it helps me get a better understanding of the trade-off I made and might make me readjust my cost/benefit analysis.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Funny side note: Whilst implementing your fixes (huge thanks for that btw!!!), I noticed this half sentence about Aistulf: "nobody taught him how to ride". When in the next part, he does exactly that. Oops. -> /delete.


    2.3 is mostly done. It'll be up this weekend. Russian easter, family visits, work, and extra work came in my way. I'll try and be quick and get the next part up asap.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegod View Post
    From Socrates over Jesus to me it has always been the lot of any true visionary to be rejected by the reactionary bourgeoisie
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  15. #75
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    Default Re: Of Wolves and Prey [Updated: 24/04; Part II.2]

    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegod View Post
    I didn't even think about them when I wrote it, but I know what you mean.

    Now that I think of it I suspect you might be reminded of GoT very often in the future. GRRM focused a lot on character development, and so do I. And their characters frequently talk about politics, intrigues, and strategising war. ...And so do I. It's an easy way to both communicate what's going on and simultaneously show what the characters are about.
    Don't worry about this, it happens more often than you think, and GRRM isn't the be all end all for medieval politics and character developments. You're bound to see something 'similar' when you read widely

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    Default II.3 Il Castagno

    RECAP
    Gundulf is stuck with the old margrave Albert Azzo, who has retired to his castle at Este, his heir Fulk acting as his deputy.
    Albert has since fallen victim to a depression caused by a lack of purpose, and explains to Gundulf why.
    Gundulf meanwhile has his own worries. He has been without contact to his old friends Matteo and Aistulf for a while now, and wonders what they are up to.
    At the end of the last scene, Albert receives an unexpected visitor, and Gundulf sees a familiar face through the open door.


    Il Castagno

    The chestnut tree was a particularly old one. The circumference of its trunk seemed at least twice a grown man’s reach. As the other trees around it were gently moved by the wind, this old giant stood firm, unmoved, and emanated a sense of serenity, as if it knew that in the vicinity of it, there were none like it. And the other trees seemed to know it too and shy away from it, as it stood alone in a clearing overshadowed by branches thicker than the trunks of its much younger neighbours, ruling over a kingdom that was both earthly and heavenly at the same time.

    As soon as they had spotted it, they were immediately drawn by it. And Gundulf knew he absolutely had to scale it.
    “Do you think I can reach it from here?” He asked, as he pointed at a branch above him. Matteo, lost in his thoughts, simply smiled and shook his head.

    They had just gotten out of a long meeting between the margrave and Matteo's custodian, the merchant. The subjects of their talk had been significant, and its outcome would likely be significant as well, though Matteo had not yet fully processed as to how and what the consequences would be.

    “Do you want to climb it with me?” Gundulf asked.

    “No.” Matteo replied, and then, noticing the disappointed look on his friends face, he apologised. “My clothes…” He said, pointing at them, knowing Gundulf would fill in the rest. They were expensive, and Matteo took great care not to have them dirtied or, God forbid, torn.

    Gundulf nodded and stood there for a while, unsure what he should do. “But you go ahead.” Matteo finally said. And Gundulf immediately jumped, aiming for the branch he had pointed at earlier.

    It had been a while, Matteo thought. A long while since they last had seen each other. And for the duration of the meeting, they had stood opposite each other, looked at each other and not been able to say a word.
    Gundulf had been waiting behind the margrave, with a jug of wine in hand ready to serve him or his guest, and seeming to struggle ever more to stand still and keep his boredom in check.
    Matteo on the other hand had deliberately sought out an inconspicuous corner in the room, from which he had listened intensely to the conversation between his padrone and his liege, always paying as much attention to the facial expressions and body language of the margrave as to the words that actually left his mouth.

    Gundulf failed to hold on to the branch, and was soon on the ground again. “Told you.” Matteo commented with a grin.

    Gundulf immediately jumped again. And this time he managed to hold on. “So what is Aistulf up to these days?” Gundulf then asked, as this had reminded him of their absent friend; the only one he knew who'd consistently beat him at climbing.

    “Aistulf?” Matteo repeated, before answering reluctantly: “I don’t know.” Gundulf gave him a questioning look before swinging up and clinging on to the branch with his thighs. “Aistulf has changed.” Matteo stated, as from below he looked at his friend scaling the branch.

    Gundulf finally managed to get on top of it, but in doing so caused some dirt to fall on the spectator, who rushed to fervently scrub his clothes clean. “He’s not the only one.” Gundulf stated, as he looked at the spectacle below.

    Matteo knew he was being mocked. “That’s not what I meant.” He replied, somewhat annoyed at first: “We are all growing up. It doesn’t matter what clothes I wear. You still know who I am. And no matter how much you’ve grown I still know there’s a monkey hiding in your head, constantly on the look-out for trees to climb.”
    There was but a faint smile on his face before Matteo immediately became serious again: “With Aistulf I don’t know who he is anymore.”

    “What happened?”

    “I don’t know.”

    Matteo shook his head and stayed silent for a while, but another questioning look from above made him continue: “Look. Until about half a year ago he showed up almost daily. I gave him leftovers to eat, helped him out however I could. But then he came less and less frequently. I started seeing him only once every two to three days, then once every week, once every two weeks, and so on. He stopped telling me what he was doing and became aggressive. Now it’s almost impossible to talk to him without a fight, and I no longer know much about him." There was a brief pause, and when Matteo continued his words held a touch of uncertainty. "About a month ago he showed up with bruises and cuts, didn’t tell me how he had gotten them. He had me look after them and insisted to stay in my room for the night, even though my padrone doesn’t allow him inside, so he snuck in through a window and left before dawn without telling me why… And that’s it. I haven’t seen him since.”

    “So why didn’t you go find him?”

    “I don’t know how and I don’t know where. The only places he mentioned aren’t exactly in the safest parts of the citta, so I don’t even go near them…”
    Matteo hadn’t intended to stop there, but he didn’t know what else to say, so he shrugged, with his mouth still open. And then he turned away. He didn’t like being seen emotional, not even by his friend.

    “Now that you mention it…” He heard Gundulfs voice from above: “I have seen him.”

    Matteo promptly turned around and gave him an angry look. “Why didn’t you tell me?!”

    “I thought you knew and didn’t know what to make of it.” Gundulf received another angry look advising him to keep talking. “It was a couple of weeks ago. It seemed strange because he didn’t want to talk about you. He was angry, like you said, and I don’t know why he came here in the first place. I found him early in the morning, skulking around in the courtyard. He didn’t say why he had come and left when I went to fetch him some food… And that’s it.”

    “E strano!” Matteo muttered, too dumbfounded to notice he had switched into common speech.

    “Ma certo!” Gundulf replied, and nodded.

    And then they fell both silent for a while and stared at each other with puzzled looks on their faces. However, the moment was cut short when they heard someone clear his throat nearby. And as confused as they had been before, it was nothing compared to how thoroughly dumbfounded they were on seeing Aistulf standing not far from them, seemingly having appeared out of nowhere.


    Update
    Thanks for the feedback I have received so far. Though my spacing might still be bad (please tell me how to do that better), I tried to make it better this time.
    Please tell me what to fix and your feedback in general.

    I think the last part was a bit on the long side and decided to split this one in half where it made sense, so it's just above 1000 words at the moment.
    It has a lot of neat advantages (It'll make me publish much more frequently), but it also means that you'll only find out what the merchant and margrave were talking about in the next part.
    And while some mystery is good, it starts to feel even to me like I'm overdoing it. Which I'm not. Not on purpose at least. But still: I always appreciate to hear your feedback. Especially the part that you didn't like or felt was less good.

    Another issue is that again, just like with the last part, this one has a different start. So there might be some continuity issues here.

    Why the Italian when I just recently admitted that Italian wasn't a thing back then? Well, no matter how rudimentary my Italian is, my Lombard is nonexistent. Especially since 11th century Lombard/Veneto would have been even more different.

    Why all this blabbering about chestnut trees? Well, I needed a setting and love chestnut trees. We had two of them in our old summer house in France, and built several tree houses into them. They're easy to climb, they're safe, as their branches don't suddenly break off, so ours carried several tree houses my father built for me and my sister when we were kids, and though we didn't manage to collect many of those delicious nuts (squirrels are damn fast!), I still have a ton of fond memories for the trees.
    Chestnut trees can grow very, very old (the oldest tree in Europe is a 2000-4000 year old huuuge chestnut tree with a circumference of almost 60m! Here's an 18th century painting of it), and when a storm sent pretty much most of our garden flying and even managed to topple some of our biggest trees, those chestnuts in our garden didn't even blink. Not that they could... But you get what I mean. They're pretty much indestructible. Unless an idiot with a motor saw comes around because he decided he'd rather have some firewood than some beautiful trees that give him delicious nuts.
    At some point we sold our house to some friends who we knew would take care of our trees, but they rented it out to some people who didn't give a darn and those tenants chopped all the trees down for some measly firewood. Really broke my heart.

    A final "fun" fact about chestnut trees: Well they grow in the Euganean hills where the castle Este is, and in the Apennines where the kiddo's are from. But nowhere in between.
    Now excuse me please, I have some crying to do.
    Last edited by Cookiegod; May 05, 2019 at 04:29 PM. Reason: Kiloton of fixes. <3

  17. #77
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    Default Re: Of Wolves and Prey [Updated: 05/05; Part II.3]

    Well, I didn't know what to make of this chapter at first, the writing style is different from what I'm used to, but after re-reading it I can safely say I'm impressed. You convey the emotions of the characters well, as well as their free-spiritedness. Doubtless we will see more of this Aistulf character. Also lovely to see you add a personal touch to the environment!

    About chapter length, don't worry too much, I think many people here are willing to read up to 2.5k words in one sitting.

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  18. #78

    Default Re: Of Wolves and Prey [Updated: 05/05; Part II.3]

    Hey dude, I really liked this update, and I think it works really well. It also flows nicely from the previous one, so have no worries on that front (some comments on your comments are in a contentbox in my contentbox below ). I won't heap praises or tout what I liked, not because it wasn't good (it definitely was) but rather because I know you prefer the cutting remarks more So below I have a first contentbox with some thoughts and responses to your comments above and to your pm to me, and then below that is a contentbox with my edits and suggestions for this installment. Importantly, I have also put in my idea for how to go about paragraphing this section, which I hope is helpful to you! And without further ado, we are off!

    Responses to Cookiegod's post #74

    Paragraphs/Line breaks: I hope my edits to the latest installment are helpful. Just fire me questions if you want more of my thoughts (and more are in the comments and edits below as well).

    "Italian": I think this is cleared up nicely with the use of "common speech" in the text. I talk about this below, but my main objection was to the term "Italian", not to anything particular about linguistics or language morphology and divergence. I just think "Italian" is too modern of a term, and breaks the immersion. Your fix works perfectly though!

    Show, don't tell and the exposition bomb: I see why you have that in there, and I think it is fine. My main comment above was that it might help the reader to stay focused/interested if you broke up the exposition bomb with a few nice descriptions. Just a quick two-sentence diversion here or there describing some particular valley, river, or forest that might be important later in the story (cause then it contributes to the development of things as well). So my objection was not to the exposition bomb per se, but rather to there not being any islands of immersion that we could grab hold of as we were swept along. I think just a couple quick descriptions in that opening section above the map would go a long way to making that whole seven year arc come across more artfully and with a bit more built-in interest. Where you might choose to do that is up to you though, especially as it would probably make most sense to throw in descriptions of the things that will come up later in the story (and I don't know what those things might be).

    Narrators and styles: I think if you started the previous section with the last lines of the section before that (where the monk starts writing), and offset the actual writing he is doing in italics, then you could lead into this more easily. I think it is good you are not trying to just give us the monk's tale as he wrote it (it would be either inaccessible for us modern readers or not a good rendition of a tale from that time), but you can do what you are doing and stay more true to the form of your story if you start this section of the story by leading in with what the monk actually wrote and then providing a very small (but obvious) break where you switch to this third-person narrator (i.e. you). I'm thinking of how in Princess Bride we start with the grandpa's narration and then just sort of drop into the flowing story, and then are periodically popped out by the grandpa's voice again when we need some contextual details (or shenanigans). Something like that would work well I think.



    Edits/Suggestions/Etc. to II.3: Il Castagno

    So, I have fewer suggestions here, and I was going to only give you a few comments rather than citing your whole text and editing inline (I was actually already about 3/4 done when I remembered that...) but then it hit me that I wasn't commenting the spacing at all. So here I have copied your whole text and commented it as I usually do, and I have also changed all of the paragraphing to what makes sense to me. You'll need to look sharp for the line spacing changes though, as I can't really offset those with color terribly well. I hope this is somewhat helpful for you, and let me know if you want any more comments on that, or maybe even just general thoughts or tips (I have taught classes on argumentative writing and English writing in general, so I have some experience with these things (though granted, I am not really qualified in any real sense; I got jobs cause I am charming and have a knack for interviews, not because I had prior training in these topics ). Anyway, the comments below!




    Il Castagno

    The chestnut tree was a particularly old one. The circumference of its trunk seemed at least twice a grown man’s reach. As the other trees around it were gently moved by the wind, this old giant stood firm, unmoved, and emanated a sense of serenity, as if it knew that in the vicinity of it, there were none like it. And the other trees seemed to know it too and shy away from it, as it stood alone in a clearing overshadowed by branches thicker than the trunks of its much younger neighbours, ruling over a kingdom that was both earthly and heavenly at the same time.

    As soon as they had spotted it, they were immediately drawn by it. And Gundulf knew he absolutely had to scale it. [This seems to modern to me (and maybe a tad juvenile in its wording; not meaning that your wording is something a juvenile would write, but it seemed like a phrase that would be used in a story for kids, like the first Harry Potter). I would suggest omitting the "absolutely".] “Do you think I can reach it from here?” He asked, as he pointed at a branch above him. Matteo, lost in his thoughts, simply smiled and shook his head.

    They had just gotten out of a long meeting between the margrave and his Matteo's custodian, the merchant.[With the pronoun "him it sort of sounded like you were talking about the Margrave and the Margrave's custodian.] The subjects of their talk had been significant, and its outcome would likely be significant, though Matteo had not yet fully processed as to how and what the consequences would be.

    “Do you want to climb it with me?” Gundulf asked.

    “No.” Matteo replied, and then, noticing the disappointed look on his friend's face, he was quick to apologised. “My clothes…” He said, pointing at them, knowing Gundulf would fill in the rest. They were expensive, and Matteo took great care not to have them dirtied or, gGod forbid, even torn.

    Gundulf nodded and stood there for a while, unsure what he should do. “But you go ahead.” Matteo finally said. And Gundulf immediately jumped, aiming for the branch he had pointed at earlier.

    It had been a while, Matteo thought. A long while since they last had seen each other. And for the duration of the meeting, they had stood opposite each other, looked at each other and not been able to say a word. Gundulf had been waiting behind the margrave, with a jug of wine in hand ready to serviceserve him or his guest, [This might be me being an inappropriate man-child, but the use of "service" there makes me think something you probably don't want to mean...], but alsoand seeming to struggleing ever more to stand still and keep his boredom in check.[Above you said the subjects of their talk were significant. If that is so, then why was Gundulf bored? Did he not understand the import of the meeting, or was it important yet still boring (like Senate hearings )? This seems like a potential continuity issue, but it may not be, depending on your answer/intent here. I can also see you developing some character details here (Matteo notices more, Gundulf is less attentive/diplomatic) and if that's the intent, then I have no quarrel here.] Matteo on the other hand had deliberately sought out an inconspicuous corner in the room, from which he had listened intensely to the conversation between his padrone and his liege, always paying as much attention to the facial expressions and body language of the margrave as to the words that actually left his mouth.

    Gundulf failed to hold on to the branch, and was soon on the ground again.[Some transition back into the present would be good here.] “Told you.” Matteo commented with a grin.

    Gundulf immediately jumped again. And this time he managed to hold on. “So what is Aistulf up to these days?” Gundulf then asked, as this had reminded him ofremembering that their absent friend was the only one he knew who'd consistently beat him at climbing.

    “Aistulf?” Matteo repeated, before answering reluctantly: “I don’t know.” Gundulf gave him a questioning look before swinging up and clinging on to the branch with his thighs. “Aistulf has changed.” Matteo stated, as from below he looked at his friend scaling the branch from below.[The way you have it makes it suddenly seem like Matteo is above Gundulf. The reordering avoids that confusion (at least, I think it does ).]

    Gundulf finally managed to get on top of it, but in doing so caused some dirt to fall on his friend [Repetition. See if you can't vary that a bit more.], who rushed to fervently scrub his clothes clean. “He’s not the only one.” Gundulf stated, as he looked at the spectacle below.

    Matteo knew he was being mocked. “That’s not what I meant.” He replied, somewhat annoyed at first: “We are all growing up. It doesn’t matter what clothes I wear. You still know who I am. And no matter how much you’ve grown I still know there’s a monkey hiding in your head, constantly on the look-out for trees to climb.”[Love the monkey comment, no critique there, but I wonder if they would know about monkeys... Just a question of plausibility for me.] There was but a faint smile on his face before Matteo immediately became serious again: “With Aistulf I don’t know who he is anymore.”

    “What happened?”

    “I don’t know.”

    Matteo shook his head and stayed silent for a while, but another questioning look from above made him continue: “Look. Until about half a year ago he showed up almost daily. I gave him the leftovers to eat I was able to save for him, helped him out however I could. TBut then he came less and less frequently. I started seeing him only once every two to three days, then once every week, once every two weeks, and so on. He stopped telling me what he was doing and has becomebecame aggressive. So nNow it’s almost impossible to talk to him without a fight, and I no longer know much about him." There was a brief pause, and when Matteo continued his words held a touch of uncertainty. "Then aAbout a month ago he showed up with bruises and cuts, didn’t tell me how he had gotten them., h He had me look after them, and insisted to stay in my room for the night, even though, you know,[The "you know" strikes me as too modern sounding.] my padrone doesn’t allow him inside, so he sneaked [I am totally unsure about this one, but shouldn't it be "snuck in"... I am genuinely asking!]in through a window and left long before dawn, without telling me why… And that’s it. I haven’t seen him since.”

    “So why didn’t you go find him?”

    “I don’t know how and I don’t know where. The only places he mentioned aren’t exactly in the safest areas [For some reason "parts" seems like a nicer word here, just for the sound of it in the sentence. It's a stylistic choice though.]of the city, so I don’t even go near them…” Matteo hadn’t intended to stop there, but he didn’t know what else to say, so he shrugged, with his mouth still open. And then he turned away. He didn’t like being seen emotional, not even by his friend.

    “Now that you mention it…” He heard Gundulf's voice from above: “I have seen him.”

    Matteo promptly turned around and gave him an angry look. “Why didn’t you tell me?!”

    “I thought you knew and didn’t know what to make of it.” Gundulf received another angry look advising him to better keep talking. “It was a couple of weeks ago. It seemed strange because he didn’t want to talk about you. He was angry, like you said, and I don’t know why he came here in the first place. I found him early in the morning, skulking around in the courtyard. He didn’t say why he had come here and left when I went to fetch him some food… And that’s it.”

    “E strano!” Matteo muttered, too dumbfounded to notice he had switched into common speech.

    “Ma certo!” Gundulf replied, and nodded.

    And then they fell both silent for a while and stared at each other with puzzled looks on their faces. ThatHowever, the moment was cut short when they heard someone clear his throat nearby. And as confused as they had been before, it was nothing compared to how thoroughly dumbfounded they were on seeing Aistulf standing not far from them, seemingly having appeared out of nowhere.



    Cookiegod's Comments (commented :P)

    I think the last part was a bit on the long side and decided to split this one in half where it made sense, so it's just above 1000 words at the moment.
    It has a lot of neat advantages (It'll make me publish much more frequently), but it also means that you'll only find out what the merchant and margrave were talking about in the next part.


    I like this length. In general I have no objection whatsoever to longer updates, but when I am doing really close reading and looking for potential edits for improvement, a shorter piece is easier for me to motivate myself to look at. So this helped me greatly!

    And while some mystery is good, it starts to feel even to me like I'm overdoing it. Which I'm not. Not on purpose at least. But still: I always appreciate to hear your feedback.

    I think the mystery here is just fine!

    Another issue is that again, just like with the last part, this one has a different start. So there might be some continuity issues here.

    You had mentioned this, but I actually think the switch is nice. It's not so much that we are confused as to why they are here, and it gives a nice opportunity for some scene-setting. Moreover, they would have to get somewhere out in the open to be able to talk like this and be so free with their thoughts and actions, so it is good you've altered the scenery from the castle (where I presume one would be more close-lipped).

    Why the Italian when I just recently admitted that Italian wasn't a thing back then? Well, no matter how rudimentary my Italian is, my Lombard is nonexistent. Especially since 11th century Lombard/Veneto would have been even more different.

    This, I also found to be a nice touch, and you calling it "common speech" worked very well for me as well. My main complaint above was not you calling attention to the languages, or me saying that they should be counted as language X, or Y, or something like that. My objection was the word "Italian", as I am pretty sure that word itself is very modern*. So your solution here is perfect! (*Even if that word can be justified in earlier eras, it still breaks the immersion by making me think of Italy, which is something not part of your story. Immersion is crucial, and if you have to sacrifice some accuracy to hold it in place, I would always do so!)

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  19. #79
    Cookiegod's Avatar CIVUS DIVUS EX CLIBANO
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    Default Re: Of Wolves and Prey [Updated: 05/05; Part II.3]

    Thanks guys! Implemented all the fixes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kilo
    Love the monkey comment, no critique there, but I wonder if they would know about monkeys... Just a question of plausibility for me.
    Oh they did indeed. You might wanna read Peter Damian's tractate "On the good religious state and tropology of various animals" (de bono religiosi status et variorum animatium tropologia) and he can give you very interesting insight, such as no, please don't hold monkeys as pets, they're sinful.
    He tells us that a count William in Italy took one as pet, which then became the lover of the countess and murdered William out of jealousy while he had intercourse with his wife.
    Now I hear what you're saying. Surely this is a bit hard to believe? Well, he heard it from the pope himself, so it must be true.
    And the widow then gave birth to a half-monkey, whom Damian claims to have seen himself.
    Again, biology might try and tell you this can't be true, but I have to believe it is!

    You heathens don't know who Peter Damian was?
    He was a big-shot cleric who was active around ~1060 in Milan and died in 1073, ~4 years prior to this part. He was later made a saint, a "doctor of the church" and is also praised by Dante in his Divina Comedia as one of the good guys.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wikipedia
    Peter often condemned philosophy. He claimed that the first grammarian was the Devil, who taught Adam to decline deus in the plural. He argued that monks should not have to study philosophy, because Jesus did not choose philosophers as disciples, and so philosophy is not necessary for salvation.
    "The devil is in the grammar."

    You're welcome, I hope this treasure trove of very important information is repayment enough, because the forum software seems to hate you and with every post of yours it reminds me I'm not allowed to rep you.
    Last edited by Cookiegod; May 05, 2019 at 04:42 PM.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegod View Post
    From Socrates over Jesus to me it has always been the lot of any true visionary to be rejected by the reactionary bourgeoisie
    Qualis noncives pereo! #justiceforcookie #egalitéfraternitécookié #CLM

  20. #80

    Default Re: Of Wolves and Prey [Updated: 05/05; Part II.3]

    That info is far better than a rep! Hilarious stuff there, and it's always good to see Popes being odd throughout the ages. This detail about monkeys is also interesting in that it shows that Matteo might have been taking a small dig at Gundulf's expense, or possibly chiding him for some inappropriate behavior. It is something that would be slightly odd amongst friends, but not out of the question, and might shed light on deeper character traits for the both of them.


    Also, thank you so much for altering the paragraphing! It makes my OCD brain feel so much better to see it all organized nicely like that. My general suggestion for the next update (regarding spacing) would be to avoid the line breaks that don't leave an actual separation, and have things either in the same proper paragraph, or in separate paragraphs split by a blank line.
    Example

    Writing a sentence alone is fine.
    But it looks odd if the next sentence is then on the next line, like this one.

    But if I split the paragraph with a blank line, then everything just looks right. And now I am done patronizing you, and generally being a pain in the hole
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