When do you favor hoplites over pikes?

[Butan]

Hoplites are more versatile than pikes, especially in head-to-head campaigns where a human opponent will easily kite you out of your mind if you have a main line of pikes.

When in doubt, its better to have too many hoplites than too many pikes. Pikes sure do wonders in defensive scenarios and AI battles though.

[KAM 2150]

Interesting, I read reports that hoplites are much worse in head to head campaign as they are far easier to flank due to small frontage while piles allow you to cover much more ground (plus much better killing power).

[KYREAPER]

KAM is right, the pikes provide the benefit of a more stable battle-line. And Butan is also right about hoplites being much more versitile than pikes.

But the key is, with Pikes, you MUST have a very balanced set of supporting units... or the pikes will fail and you will get kited and outranged, etc.

The way iv always dominated players when im using pikes, and they try to kite them... is your WINGS must be fast and dominant. You have to attack one of the flanks HARD and crush it(sell out for it) and then they have to engage you.. which means you can move your pikes into action. Your wings have to be FAST for this to work... so some STRONG melee attack infantry with light armor and alot of speed... lots of peltasts to drop 40-60 troops of an enemy unit in a few volleys... and cavalry to gaurantee the route.

With hoplites, against a human opponent who KITES(if they dont kite, ill fight with my battle-line) I use a staggered line, like the Thebans did against Sparta at the Battle of Leuctra.

Iv never seen a human player run from me sending only 3 units forward from my battle-line to engage their units...

Usually it confused them and they just let me fight and kill whatever units i engaged. Ill always send a hoplite unit in the front, followed by my general(so javelins will only hit the unit in front of my general, not killing my general), and either another hoplite unit/strong melee infantry behind the general for flanking.

This usually 1. confuses people, and they dont move or reposition because they think they will win... while they waste arrows/javelins trying to kill my general that they have trouble hitting.
or 2. they sell out and rush my general, thinking they will kill him... but he can just turn laterally and pop phalanx, and have the unit behind him cover his rear.. while the front hoplite unit engages the enemy line.
Then once their battle-line is all disconfigured from their retaliation, the rest of my hoplites engage them in the side(giving me an advantage against each unit in the fight, almost ensuring i win).. and then i can overload one of their flanks, or just flank both sides depending on how vulnerable theyve made themselves.

Its just like Chess... you make a move to entice them into attacking... give them an offer they cant refuse... you know they have to either 1. do nothing, and let u win... or 2. send multiple units to seize your general(very enticing target) which lets you slam into the sides of those enemies, guaranteeing you beat THOSE units. Your general will easily hold his own.. and then most the enemy has used up their javelins/arrows.. so now you hold range superiority.

Hoplites allow this better since their shields are bigger and they dont care about arrows/javelines as much. Pikes would get destroyed before this is possible.

[Butan]

In my experience its very hard to maintain a line of pikes + push toward a human opponent that is in a kiting mood or excel in throwing stuff.
Holes will appear and acute angles will form after prolonged combat; individual flanks will open and enemy breakthrough will be possible locally.

One fix is having back-up to plug holes or slightly overlap your pikes but then it reduces the frontage advantage over hoplites.

Funnily enough, a good line of pikes will not 100% engage all units in front due to formation hiccups. Not a problem if its the enemy trying to bring the pain, but if not they can more easily disengage a couple paces and throw more stuff, or even retreat and replenish after a kind of skirmish-battle.

And yes I play head-to-head campaigns against devious people

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I have fond memories of old DeI when melee infantry could only throw their ammunition if you charged so you had to fake-charge to harass with skirmisher heavy factions.

Basically what KYREAPER said:

But the key is, with Pikes, you MUST have a very balanced set of supporting units... or the pikes will fail and you will get kited and outranged, etc.

So against smart defensive opponent I much prefer hoplites if I dont know exactly what he's gonna do. I lost many battles trying to push a pike role-play too far But then its very normal and realistic IMO.

[KYREAPER]

Yeah, pikes basically mean you have frontal superiority in combat. The enemy knows its suicide to engage your pikes... and your pikes will end up getting 100-200 kills per unit.. while their units only amount to probably 40 kills max against the pikes... so no smart person will rush them.

The benefit of the pikes is that you basically dont have to worry about the enemy having hoplites.. because pikes do the same job, but better frontally. So front2front you have superiority.

Luckily, I play as Sparta... who dont have extremely expensive pikes(but are still above average) so that lets me really load up on expensive supporting units to overload the flanks... because most people dont use their best units on the flanks... they use them for the battleline.

Pikes give the advantage of being able to beat almost any of those battle-line infantry(even elite units) for less cost... which means your flanks should easily dominant the enemy flanks due to troop quality.

Pikes make it easier to win that battle. It either makes the enemy have to ruin their entire battle-line to adjust(which then lets you finally push ur pikes into atleast SOMEBODY) or they send some units to engage and hold your pikes while they range or flank them... but by then your flanks have won and then counter flank.

No matter what they do, they are going to take big losses... its just a matter of if they can manage to form a decent battle-line after their adjustments to your overwhelming units on the flank.

Most people end up with a crappy line, or no line altogether. Plus im a huge fan of peltasts... as they have damn good melee stats as well as the strongest infantry ranged weapon(javelins).
So i usually go with 5-6 expensive peltasts... because they usually have 30+ melee attack and 70+ melee defense which makes them quite good at flanking.. very fast.. they will dominate any archers or other ranged units...

Plus... 2 peltasts can destroy almost any cavalry unit in the game who charges them(i always keep two together). so 6 peltasts means you beat 3 of their cavalry units(which are much more expensive than those peltasts).
Then you probably have 2 of your OWN cavalry(i use skirmisher cav always) and so you effectively have enough to kill 5 enemy cav units... and most ppl dont have that many... so you get speed and cavalry superiority...

If any unit routes, they are guaranteed dead with your speed superiority.

Those 6 peltasts are so nice because they count as another VERY capable melee unit... and have huge thureos shields to absorb ranged damage with low casualties. So if the enemy does squeeze through some gaps in the pike-wall.. one unit of peltasts can just fill the gap and hit those enemies in the side.

[Butan]

+1 for peltasts, I've experimented with as few as 4 pikes and like 8 peltasts-like units and its a real wreck. If you dont micro, they can even make a frontline of sort.

[popovic]

In conclusion: Peltasts>Everything else.

[Tenerife_Boy]

To the OP: When taking walls.