Problem with Phalanx?

[superfineclock]

Hi guys love the mod so much, but just had something, not sure if it's a bug or not.
Playing as Rome just had a surplus population in latium. Now the population of the region has dropped to 0. Can't recruit anything apart from peregrini units.

[Satansblofish]

This could all be solved if you used pikes in a full scale battles, tested your theories, and saved the replays to share with us confirming what you're claiming. In the midst of doing that, I'm going to bet you will realize your results are the exact opposite of what you just described happening in your 1v1 tests. As a long time lurker, I have noticed no one ever comes back with saved replays of full battles verifying all of these issues they face when doing 1v1 tests. I'll be frank: Yours and everyone else's 1v1 tests are useless and predominantly a waste of time. When attempting to draw conclusions that apply to battles, 1v1 results poorly translate. Your description of your experiences with pikes is a fantastic example of posts of like these "I did some tests in 1v1. Here's your problems" and the post is really just a reflection of a lack of knowledge on the new changes. I would encourage you to check out the battle guide or play 50 turns into a campaign. In my experience after so many of these posts, if you had done either of those things we wouldn't be having this conversation. Instead, you would be having too much fun to worry about discussions like this :p. Again though, if you're insistent about having issues, just upload a save with your experiences and any issue you're facing can be explained. Lastly, my humble opinion is that based on your post and responses I think you are right that you are better off with another mod. I would encourage you to try out at least one campaign and give it a real shot though. However, without getting some experience the reality you are facing is more frustration with the more challenging aspects of the mod. I am going to be refraining from this thread any further(I guess unless there is a follow up video) so good luck with your endeavors and happy conquering!

[Grigal]

I must say that hoplites and pikes have never been better. I really enjoy playing greek factions.
Kyreaper thank you for your research, very nice job.

[gornoviceanu]

I don't know about you, but my 7-8 meter long pike phalanx, with light hoplites as flank cushion held the line long enough until my 3-4 meter pike phalanx made a puncture in the line, pour in, flank and make things cozy for my shock cavalry to wrap the day up. Long story short, the pike phalanx is AN ELEMENT (a specialized one, highly efficient in it's role) of your army, not the whole army.

[theLuchii]

I'm going to side with the phalanxes are working well team. The strategy KAM listed earlier where you single click until the enemy are exhausted, then double click to push forward will usually decimate units of similar quality while your casualties are more of a drip. I was recently defending a town and had two phalanx units bottling up 4 enemy sword and spear units, I used the defensive mode until they were exhausted and my phalanxes were winded, then double clicked and watched them push forward a few meters, killing around 30 men in the process. Do it again, same result. Third push, front two enemy units rout, a couple more and the rest of the units were doing the same.

However, I do have a question. I just got out of a battle I lost defending a town because of a fairly annoying issue. I put four units of Lucanian hoplites at 8 rows deep to hold off one entrance, and while the enemy responded with about 12 units (they were attacking with two stacks) they immediately just "pushed" or force-ran their infantry through my line by forming phalanxes sideways, broke my formation, then had their sword units shred me to pieces. My assault troops were making their way around the back and my ranged units were putting in work on them from behind as well, and had my Lucanian hoplites been able to retain their formation, the battle would have been hard fought but very winnable. Is this just a limitation on the game or is there some way to avoid this? Eight men deep is plenty thick in my opinion to hold formation for at least a couple minutes.

[KYREAPER]

I think that happens when the enemy unit actually tries to move through ur unit to get behind it. Iv had that happen to me and it appears the enemy just lets u slaughter them as they force their way through you... sometimes ill double up hoplite units behind each other which usually kills them fast enough and lets me reposition them back into formation

[Geffalrus]

I've actually had a different weird thing happen in city battles. While maneuvering my pike units around within the city streets, they would periodically deactivate phalanx formation. I think it was when I double-clicked to run fast. It also happened when moving between too-close buildings. I was not aware of them doing this before.

To be clear, this is not a big issue - I'm mostly curious to see if anyone else has noticed this, and if it's actually a new thing. My memory could be faulty. Or something could have changed in 1.2. The ultimate outcome of the battle did not change as a result of this problem. And now that I know, I can plan accordingly as it's really not a gamebreaker by any means. Just figured I'd mention it in this context.

[Geffalrus]

Different topic.

At some point I need to update my Guide on Understanding Pikes in DeI. To that end, I've been messing around a bit with the different pike types in custom battles and in the campaign. One interesting thing I noticed was the interplay between the different length pike units. Peltast Pikes, as many are starting to realize, are real killers when sent face to face against enemy units. The Antigonids get a special super-Peltast Pike called the Agema. Peltast Pikes, however, do have an interesting weakness beyond that stated by KAM in his preview. Peltast Pikes don't actually fare that well against Bronze Shield pikes. I've run an Agema straight into a Bronze Shield, and the poor Agema got completely butchered. Now, there could have been a lot of factors at play - uneven ground, a general ability activating, whatever. But the sheer size of the victory - 4 losses to the Bronze and 220 to the Agema - indicates to me that something more profound is going on. My current theory is that the high defense of the Bronze Shield in pike phalanx negates the high attack of the Peltast Pike/Agema and lets the unit exhaust itself on the stationary Bronze Shield. Fatigue kills. I'm not sure how literally the pike length plays into this. Bronze Shields use the long pike, while the Peltast pikes and Agema use the short pike. In theory, it would make sense that the long pike would have this sort of an advantage over the short pike. This is the idea behind why the pikes got longer over time (at least in some interpretations of what little the sources tell us). If so, that's kind of a neat unit dynamic.

Long story short, all things being equal, don't send your short pike units up against long pike units. Send them against non-pike units. Hoplites? No problem. At first I thought the Seleucid lack of a short pike was a competitive disadvantage. Now it seems like the characteristics of the Silver Shield unit more than make up for it. Ptolemies beware.

[KYREAPER]

The reason is simple.
Its the same reason why hoplites always lose to pikes.

Range.

The Agema have shorter pikes.. the bronze shields have longer ones... so the agema cant reach the bronze shields as well.. their front line can, but the second, third rows cant.. where as they can on the bronze shields... so its 2-3 rows vs 1-2.

More range always wins, when range is the only factor. When it comes to pikemen or spears, the longer will always win.

[Heleonis]

I don't think there's a problem, did you ever try to block a street with Pikes or Phalanx? ''NOBODY SHALL PASS'' is what the Hoplites say.

[Oskar_GD]

I guess nobody even try understand TS :~/ Phalanx is wasnt killing machine, its true. But why hoplite with sword is much better kill enemy in out phalanx mode? Why we should use hoplites with sword, not spear?! HOPLITES WITH SWORDS, KARL! How hoplites can be better in out phalanx mod if the Phalanx is the Quintessense of hoplite. Hoplite is nothing in out phalanx. Do you really wanna say its historically?

[KAM 2150]

Exactly that. Short sword is much better weapon to kill someone then a spear. And for even bigger surprise they trained with swords, who would know! In phalanx they can't go in for the kill as the hold formation, outside of it they engage in many duels so much more damage is applied but they also die few times faster and have 0 protection vs cav as outside of formation they lack charge protection. Also only elite hoplites are beats in and out of formation.

[Oskar_GD]

Exactly that. Short sword is much better weapon to kill someone then a spear. And for even bigger surprise they trained with swords, who would know! In phalanx they can't go in for the kill as the hold formation, outside of it they engage in many duels so much more damage is applied but they also die few times faster and have 0 protection vs cav as outside of formation they lack charge protection. Also only elite hoplites are beats in and out of formation.

Of course sword is better, but we talk about the hoplites. Their main weapon is spear, not sword. They wasnt train fight with sword in formation. Phalanx is single form hoplite warfare. Do you really know historic cases when greek strategos gave order to disband the phalanx formation? Its just a suicide. I just wanna say that hoplite cant be better in out phalanx mode. May be in movement, may be in chaising, not fighting. You should not even thought use hoplite without phalanx in front combat. In my humble opinion.

[KAM 2150]

I still miss the part in which they are better out of phalanx. Yes, they kill faster, because they do not hold formation! They also die faster and lose some ranged protection and can be run down by cavalry, while being even worse vs infantry they can beat in phalanx formation.

If amount of kills in shorter time (with fully taking away how fast they die doing so), 100 people in straight line vs same lineup would look like a better formation as their kill ratio would be much higher then 100 men in 10 lines vs same lineup. Yet somehow nobody questions that first scenario, despite having much higher kill ratio, is plain stupid.

[Oskar_GD]

I still miss the part in which they are better out of phalanx.

KYREAPER PART 1:

Sparta has 87 kills, Rome has 60 kills

KYREAPER PART 2:

Sparta has 131 kills, Rome has 38 kills

Victory in both parts but in the second part less losses. For example its impossible in Hellenika. There phalanx formation must have for hoplites. I dont say that Hellenika is better, just an example.

[Dresden]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoplite#Sword

Not that Wikipedia is the best source but just an example of info out there about hoplite sword use.

[Oskar_GD]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoplite#Sword

Not that Wikipedia is the best source but just an example of info out there about hoplite sword use.

"Spear

The main offensive weapon used" (с)

I will reply after work because this need a bigger post because you still miss the point of kill/loss ratio and time passed.

Thanks for your attention in anyway.

[Dresden]

"Spear

The main offensive weapon used" (с)

Not that I want to continue this argument but I just want to point out the reason I linked to the wikipedia article on hoplites and swords. It wasn't to say it was their primary weapon, I was pointing out that the article basically describes exactly how we have swords in the mod. When the phalanx breaks down or in very close quarter fighting, the hoplites may use swords. There is some indication that this happened more as time passed away from the golden age of the hoplite. So, in other words, its basically exactly how it is in the mod. When they are out of phalanx or when they are fighting on the edges/random flankers they may pull a sword out sometimes.

I think many people may also forget that hoplites are sort of anachronistic a bit to this time frame - at least the classic hoplite from the height of Greece.

[KAM 2150]

Then read his report again. He stated that it only worked because those hoplites are elite of elite and have very high stats. He even highlighted why those kills you posted as misguiding, so you completly missed his point. Please read his report again, he stated how long it took hoplites to lose same amount of guys in and out of formation. You just take stuff out of context to prove your point, even if the the context you take it from is proving the opposite in very specific detail.

[geala]

We do not know much about hoplite training, especially in the Hellenistic period. We know from times earlier that learning to use a sword was normally not demanded from hoplites by the poleis and not officially trained. Each individual had to pay a trainer to learn sword use and many did not do it, they were humans as lazy as we humans today. So by and large the hoplite was not a sword hero in open order. It is a (big) difference between stabbing/hacking in extreme close quarter combat when two phalanges met and free sword fighting in open order, like the Romans, Iberians, Celts etc. trained.

So I too have problems with hoplites being good sword guys in open order. All depends on the amount of performance. If it is limited to very elite hoplites (like KAM said), it is ok. Nevertheless, an elite Spartan unit in open order should not be able to defeat an elite Roman unit.