Tech-threes and technology

[Kjertesvein]

I've not seen anyone mention anything about this. Thoughts? Things that you think is a 'must' to include? I'd be happy to hear any discussions on this.


Military Tech Three:


Raiding strategies.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Chevauchée --> Grande Chevauchée

Reading material and digression.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevauch%C3%A9e
https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistoria...itary/d97fhzp/
https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistoria...ghtly/dh2hi3z/

Civilian Tech Three


~Wille

[Donnodona]

So, we are looking for historic-accurate names for every tech, right?
Here're some names for Civil tech I found after my wiki search:

1. Municipal Charter: A tech in the European Civil tech tree which allows you to build larger cities.
2. Commercial Charter Law: Increase income from commerce and unlock higher tier commercial buildings like Merchant Guilds.
3. Artisan Guilds: Unlock higher tier building for industry/ local specialties.

Funny that these techs are all charter-related.

[You_Guess_Who]

Great Initiative! For easier mapping of the tech tree how about first listing the technological, sociological, economical, organizational innovations throughout the 13th to 15th century? Then the effects and place in the map can be laid out.

[nomercysniper]

Using the branches each main tech line (military/civil) could be spilt into 3 using the paths.

Military - Military Infrastructure (movement points, replenishment, higher tier 'barracks' if applicable, access to beter units)
- Troop Training and Weapon Advances (speed, morale, armor, attack/defence bonuses to troops recruited and new recruits)
- Naval Branch (combined of the above)

I've separated the naval branch as I feel some nations that are based away from the sea would not need to invest as much, then if they do capture a coastal region they won't instantly have access to the same tech as a nation that has invested in this branch.

Civil - Agriculture and Industrial (Bonuses and infrastructure)
- Trade (bonuses and infrastructure)
- Civil (Religious and City based)

I believe civil is set up reasonably well as is in Attila already, so I've stuck with that.

[Påsan]

Will tier 2 and tier 3 units be tied to specific dates or the tech tree?

[You_Guess_Who]

Will tier 2 and tier 3 units be tied to specific dates or the tech tree?

Tech.

[zsimmortal]

If you want to make a suggestion, the best way is to : 1) name said innovation, 2) date it as well as possible, 3) explain what it is and how it changed the medieval society from which it came.

IMO it should be more specific stuff, like 'black gunpowder' and 'matchlock mechanism' for example, which would be military developments relating to gunpowder weapons. Or the 'dry compass' or 'the carrack' would be good developments for naval technology. General stuff like the charters above are not new developments from 1212 and beyond.

Will tier 2 and tier 3 units be tied to specific dates or the tech tree?

Tech tree.

[Slytacular]

I was thinking about including a sort of 50 turn wait on the military tech block, one for access to tier 2 and another for tier 3. Tier 2 will be called the Transitional Era or the Italian Renaissance. Tier 3 can be called the Early Renaissance or the Late Medieval Age. Once researched, your existing units can now immediately upgrade to the next tier of unit provided with the right buildings to access them.

[Minnesinger]

It could be great but also fairly complicated, regarding the gameplay balance and all the researches it involves, to create unique tech-trees depending on the historical evolution of a faction or a handful of factions.
Thinking about the french monarchy and its struggle against powerful aristocracy or papacy there could be a tech-tree that expresses its will of centralisation and independence both and civil and military trees, resulting to a "proto-modern" state in late XVth century. In the civil tree a mention to the specific coronation of the kings of France, making them sanctified, both clerics and knights, should be welcome, as the affirmation of their regalia (but I guess it's european-wide in this case) like the issuing of money. I am also thinking about the first stages of the "gallicanisme" during the reign of Philippe IV le Bel (1284-1305) but it could be more likely illustrated with scripted events.
As the XIIIth century is summarily a time of demographic and economic expansion before the collapse of XIVth century, at least in western Europe, I suggest making a technology about the deforestation and the extension of arable fields it induces in early game. I have very insufficient knowledge about it but I guess it is also in the XIIIth century that the biennial crop rotation have been abandonned in profit of the triennial one in some european regions ...
In France we have a great number of cities who have been founded during the XIIth and XIIIth centuries, they were known as villes franches (free cities?), very summarily again the burghers living in them were liberated from the feudal authority and its tax burdens but were under some obligations before the king. It should be interesting to integrate this ville franche phenomenon in the early game's french "city grade tree".
There should be a lot to say about taxes and their importance in the medieval state functioning, but I think it could be interesting, both for gameplay and historical accuracy, to make an economic system mostly dependent of the tax. But it's just a basic idea that I put forward here.

Militarily speaking there is one precise point that could be interesting to integrate in the game for the kingdom of France, especially because it concerns some already made units, it's the creation of the Compagnies d'ordonnance by Charles VII circa 1440, it could be considered at the first form of professionnal, "proto-modern", army in France. The franc-archers and the gendarmerie, both of very different efficiency and posterity, have been created by this set of reforms.
It's another basic idea but during the One Hundred Years War, at least its first stages, the kings of France widely used mercenaries for their military campaigns, a technology that could reduce the recruitment, upkeep cost of mercenaries or increase their numbers in mid-game, late XIVth century or so, could be a good idea, I think.

[Minnesinger]

1) Mendicant orders.
2) The franciscan order has been founded in 1209, the carmelite order around 1206-1214, the dominican order in 1215 and the augustinian order in 1256.
3) I am not an expert but as I understood the creation of these orders is inscribed on a vast movement of interest towards christianity, faith, christian spirituality in secular society, particularly urban societies, during XIIth and XIIIth centuries. The mendicant orders, contrary to monastic orders, had their headquarters in town, and they were much more in contact with seculars, preaching and assistance to poors being their main activities.
The dominican order should specialize very quickly on the struggle against heresy, real or supposed, and granted a major importance to preaching and education.
They were widespread in Italy, France, Spain, Flanders, probably in England and Holy Roman Empire too but I dare not commit myself about what I don't know.
If a technology translating this presence of mendicant orders on western Europe is made it should be focused on religious conversion, religious osmosis bonuses, perhaps sanitory or civil technology bonuses too depending on some special buildings, in my opinion.

[You_Guess_Who]

To give more clarity, these are what seems to be possible:

- Unique Factional Tech : We can give unique tech trees or unique individual techs for certain factions if needed.
- Imperium Points: We can set each tech to yield differing amounts. So there can be prestigious techs that raises Imperium Level, and in other hand there are rather mundane but very useful tech.
- Tiers: We can make our own tiers. In Attila, Tech Trees have 4 tiers. We can do 3 tiers corresponding with the centuries of this mod's timeframe, with given bonus if the player completed all the techs in a given tier (Just like in Attila's Grand Campaign)
- Tech Node Position: There are 14 horizontal tiers (0-13), and 5 vertical indents (0-4) This means potentially we can position the techs wherever we like.
- Tech Node Relations: We can set the parent-child relation between the nodes. It seems that this make it possible for orphan techs without precursor.
- Tech Cost: We can set the cost, both in research point or in money. This means we can make that there's techs that are bought instead of researched (Just like the first tech of every Tier in Attila's Grand Campaign)
- Mercenaries: We can make that certain mercenaries can only be recruited by a player that has researched a certain tech. Useful for setting mercenaries from later periods that haven't existed yet at the start date.

[Heisenburrg]

So you mean that we have a tech tree with 70 technologies at maximum? Something like this? I would recommend to use the first and second large tech block (0/1-6) for tier 1 and earlier, the third tech block (7-9) for tier 2 and the fourth tech block (10-12/13) for tier 3.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

For comparison;

I never liked that little,messy pseud-tech-tress from R2 and Attila, so we should take some inspiration from the ETW tree. Like in ETW the military techs should give great, battle-changing advantages once researched. An example would be access to the Pike-Phalanx and some Pikemen after researching Swiss tactics...
To the system of the tech tree; I would sort the 2 main branches (Military and Civil) into 2-3 semi-independent subclasses, making connections when possible and taking additional techs at the other´s subclasses expense when needed.

The subclasses of the military branch would be; "Army" (includes Tactics and inventions for infantry, cavalry and artillery e.g. Swiss Tactics or Gunpowder...) and "Navy" (smaller branch, e.g. Compass, Carrack...).
The subclasses which I would choose for the Civil branch would be; "Architecture and Economy" (largest subclass, inventions and technologies for agriculture, industry and ... well... architecture e.g. Guild Coercion or Gothic arcitecture...), "Law and order" (e.g. Magna Carta Libertatum, High/Low Jurisdiction...) as well as "Religion and Culture" (e.g. Cosmological proof of god, Calligraphie...​ )
In this way its not hard to find dozens of fitting ideas for techs.

I would suggest to make 3-5 different tech trees; Occident tech tree (everything between Portugal and Poland/Teutonic Order), Orient tech tree, Eastern/Steppe (Could be splitted in two tech trees) and maybe an Italian tech tree (optional).

[You_Guess_Who]

So you mean that we have a tech tree with 70 technologies at maximum? Something like this?

Pretty much. Usually 24 techs per tree.

I would recommend to use the first and second large tech block (0/1-6) for tier 1 and earlier, the third tech block (7-9) for tier 2 and the fourth tech block (10-12/13) for tier 3.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Whoa, you don't need to do this much. However, it seems from the startpos every factions starts with one starting tier 0 tech and only branches from it (with notable exception of Roman's legacy techs)

I never liked that little,messy pseud-tech-tress from R2 and Attila

Agreed. Most of it sounds made-up and have very small effects.

To the system of the tech tree; I would sort the 2 main branches (Military and Civil) into 2-3 semi-independent subclasses, making connections when possible and taking additional techs at the other´s subclasses expense when needed.

Very good idea.

[Heisenburrg]

Hey guys, I worked on a little tech tree for the Occident/Europe today.

At the moment its only the military tech tree, but I made it so, that I could easily add the civil part. (basically like its shown in my previous post... 9 techs per big rectangle, placed in a way that one vertical row has -together with the military tree- 5 techs in total. Everything else you could arrange as you wish. Just in case somebody wants to complete it...) I also added a blanco-tree, if anybody wants to make the tech tree for another culture.

If I have time I´ll add the civil part soon. It will have (hopefully) 3 subthemes; "Law and Order", "Economy and Architecture" and "Religion and Culture". If you have other or additional ideas for techs/their effects, feel free to make your own tree using the blanco-sheed or discuss it in the thread. Effects are just quick examples of mine because I dont know whats needed for the campaign. The fine tuning I left for the modding team.

@Slytacular;
Unfortunately it could be difficult to realize the idea of 50 turns waiting-time between the tech tiers with the system I made. For this you would need one "base tech" for every tech tier on which every other tech in the tier is
build. This base tech could have research time of 50 turns, but if you have multiple ways to get into the next tier this is not possible. You couldn´t prevent the player from taking an alternative way going straight to the last tier and giving all techs a 50-turn-research time which have a direct connection to the previous tier wouldn´t catch the feeling of "entering the next period".
My solution would require a little scripting but I thinks that it wouldn´t be hard to to. Just tie every tech from one tier to the icon, which activates as soon as you researched all techs from the previous tier. So you have to research all techs in lets say tier 2 before you could start researching techs from tier 3. Would it be possible?

Blanco tree:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

My Occident tech tree:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Techs:
0. "Early Medieval Warfare" (?)
1. "Tunics and Heraldry", maybe a moral boost or it unlocks an early knight unit
2. "High Medieval Knighthood", maybe Attack/LP/moral boost for knights or it unlocks stables... sth like that.
3. "Horse Armor/Gothic Armor/Heavily armored Cavalry/Late Knighthood", Armor for Cav, unlocks knight-unit or stables...
4. "Vassalage", unlocks military building/units
5. "Individual combat/Knightly combat", moral/defense/offense boost for infantry
6. "Mercenary armies", unlocks some mercenaries or buildings
7. "Longbow/Ranged Combat", unlocks shooting range, range/attack/accuracy boost for ranged units, unlocks sticks etc...
8. "Combined Arms", improves stats for all unit types
9. "Plate Armor/Heavy infantry", armor boost for inf., unlocks building with heavy inf., maybe wedge formation sth like that...
10. "Swiss tactics", some stat boost, unlocks formations like the phalanx, pikes...
11. " Progressive Poliorcetica" (means siege techniques), unlocks siege engineer and some siege engines, more range/accuracy for siege weapons...
12. "Gunpowder", unlocks gunpowder weapons/buildings
13. "Advanced cannons", better siege engineer and cannons
14. "Open-Sea-Trade/Cog", trade boost, unlocks cogs
15. "High Tailgate/Carrack", LP/Attack boost, unlocks carracks
16. "Ship cannons", unlocks cannons on ship/cannonships
17. "Gunport", attack boost for cannonships, unlocks early galeons
18. "Astronomical compass", huge range on campaign map boost
19. "Tailrudder" (correct translated?), speed/maneuverability boost for all ships
20. "Craweel-planking/Hulk", unlocks shipyard, unlocks hulk LP/trade boost (trade boost because ships with craweel-planking could be built wider with more space)
21. "Caulking (and Sinteln)", LP boost, less upkeep (the new innovative combination from caulking with sintel-nails made ships more durable and lead to ship types like cogs)
22. "Caravel", unlocks caravels/new shipyards...
23. "Progressive nautic instruments" (Jacobs rod, nautic charts...), huge range boost on campaign map, speed/maneuverability boost
24. "Expiditions Overseas", unlocks new shipyard, trade/LP boost
25. "Early Modern Warfare", unlocks final military buildings, units, skills and so on...

All of these techs are researched, so they are actual inventions in the tier I placed them.

What do you say?

[You_Guess_Who]

Whoa, impressive work! However you still split the tree into 4 tiers. We can split it into 3 tiers of 7-8 techs each, following our 13th-15th Century structure instead of conforming to Attila's configuration.

My comment on your tech proposal, seems there's some ideas that can be merged with mine. Although, no Gunports for ships! It was a 16th century invention. BTW, here's my ideas at the developer's forum

Here's some Tech node ideas for Naval and Siege aspects (because this is what I originally here for):

NAVAL-RELATED

1. Tail Mounted Rudder
Tier I, Primarily for Atlantic Factions, but Mediterranean and Indian Ocean factions will have it as well on later stages
"The Pilot and the ship moves as one"
Unlocks Cogs (For Atlantic Factions). Increased turn rates.
Before this, Atlantic factions uses Longships/Knarrs/Ballingers/Roundships.


2. Restoration of the Imperial Navy
Tier I Byz Remnants
"We shall make the Imperial Navy Great again"
Unlocks T1 Gasmouloi, Tzakones, and Trebizond naval units. Before this Byz faction only have weak Prosalentai.
After the mismanagement of the Angelos and the subsequent disaster of the Fourth Crusade, the once-powerful Imperial Navy was no more. It was only after the 1260s the Palaiologians tried to rebuild a decent navy.


3. Treadmill-Powered Cranes
Tier I Civil Tech, all factions
"Have you ever realized our bossman treat us workers like rats?"
Unlocks Civil and Military Ports. Reduces building construction cost and times. Leads to other Architectural Techs.


4. Terzaruolo Rowing System.
Tier II, Mediterranean Factions.
"Many men, many oars; Single direction"
Upgrades Tier I Galleys to Tier II Galleys
Classic Polyremes places their rowers in multiple tiers, separate decks. In 1290s, The Italians experimented by merging all the tiers of rowers into a single deck. This resulted in the Terzaruolo system where 2-3 rowers rowing their own oars, pivoted in outrigger, but sitting in a single diagonal bench. What divides the old Dromons and the later Italia was these: Posticci Outrigger, Oarsmen rowing in alla sensile, and positioned in the Terzaruolo system.


5. Skeleton-First Construction
Tier II?, all Faction?
Unlocks Tier II Naval Units.


6. Tidal Drydocks
Tier II?
Unlocks Shipyards?


7. Northern Atlantic Naval Adaptation
Late Tier II/ Early Tier III?, Mediterranean Factions
Unlocks Sailing ship (non-galley) Naval Units for Mediterranean Factions
Both Atlantic and Mediterranean Shipbuilding traditions exchanges techniques during the Medieval age. From the north, Mediterranean shipbuilders learn how to build stronger ships that are able to withstand the harsher oceanic conditions compared to the calm and sheltered Mediterranean Sea.


8. Carvel Planking
Early Tier III, Atlantic Factions
Unlocks simpler Tier III Naval Units. Reduce ship construction cost.
The traditional Atlantic and Northern European planking technique was Clinker-built, where planks overlaps each others and nailed down. One of the Mediterranean Shipbuilding techniques brought to the North was the carvel planking, where the planks are laid flush plank-to-plank.


9. Oceanic Sail Rigging
Tier III, all Factions.
"The Sea, in the summer skies, her fluffy white sails, flies like angels so pure"
Unlocks Late-tier Sailing Ships e.g. Carrack and Caravel.


10. Modular Shipbuilding Assembly Line
Tier III, Mediterranean Factions
"..vessels as similar to each others as one swallow nest to another"
Unlocks highest tier Shipyard. Extremely reduces construction time for Galleys.
The quotation was commenting the ships produced from the Venetian Arsenale, which employs industrial assembly line able to manufacture standardized ships from prefabricated parts at astonishing rate. Other Mediterranean factions tried to follow suit with their own systems; including the Ottoman Turks, which navy was originally modelled after the Venetians. The Venetians, opportunistic as usual, even offered the talents of their shipbuilders to the Mamluk Sultanate for disassembling their galleys from the Mediterranean for later reassembly in the Red Sea. For what purpose? To harrass the Portuguese whose discovery of South African passage to India threatens Venice's position as a Spice trading hub!


11. Naval Gunnery
Tier III, all Factions
Unlocks ships with heavy cannon armaments.


12. New World Expeditions
Tier III, Civil Tree end. Atlantic Factions (including Maghrebi faction)
"A whole new world, a new fantastic point of view..."
Unlocks special port that produces exotic resources (e.g. spices) without needing to be placed in special regions. Requires Gold "down payment" to research as "Investment" for the explorer's party. Provides immense Imperium Points.
With this special port, its possible to cut the middlemen, obtaining direct access to resources that usually need to be traded from Eastern factions.


If there's too many, I can merge some techs together

SIEGE-RELATED


1. Chinese Siege Engineering
Early Tier I, Mongol Factions
"The ones who knows best how to bring down walls, are the ones who made them"
Unlocks Explosive shot, Firelancers, Grenade Throwers. NOT CANNONS OR ROCKETS


2. Counterweight Trebuchet
Tier I, Mongol Factions
For Mongol only. Other factions do not need this tech for Trebuchet.
Trebuchet itself was born in the East, but the counterweight version was only introduced in China when the Mongols brought back Muslim engineers to build ones for them.

3. Greek Fire Siphon
Orphan/Dead End Tier I, Byz Factions
"Hellfire raised in service of Heaven"
Unlocks Siphon units. Either an Orphan/Dead End tech, because it was a lost tech after the Fourth Crusade. However in game, there's nothing holds the player if they want to rediscover this legendary weapon.

4. Blast Furnace
Tier I
Leads to Tier I-Tier II Unit Upgrade. A necessary precursor for any armour/gunsmithing tech.

5. Water-Powered Trip Hammer
Tier I Civil
Unlocks Mines/Blacksmithing/Foundries (for armour/future gunsmithing building precursors)

6. Gunpowder
Tier II.
Unlocks T2 Bombard and Handgunners

7. Corned Gunpowder Mass Production
Early Tier III
"Sufficiently Analyzed Magic, is Science"
Unlocks T3 Cannon and Rocket Launcher

8. Advanced Gunsmithing and Cannon Foundry
Tier III end
Unlocks Mortars and Grand Bombards

9. Renaissance Army
Tier III end
The end of Military Line. Unlocks amongst others, T3 Arquebusiers
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Remember, there is nothing that suggests that I cannot make Civil Tech to give Military Bonus, or Military Tech to give civil tech (hell, it seems there's nothing to prevent me to trigger unit unlock/upgrade using civil tech) - The limitation is just the parent-child relations of tech nodes can only between those of the same tree.

[Heisenburrg]

Ok, I changed my concept to 3 tiers with each 8 techs and merged it with many of your (non-faction specific) techs.

For the Gunports my researches revealed that the earliest gunports were introduced by the french engineer Descharge around 1500 (rather some years earlier!), so they could get it in. But of course "Ocean sail rigging" would be a good alternative.

Will upload the new concept (maybe with the civil tree) later. Stay tuned!

[Slytacular]

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

This would probably be more towards where I am leaning.

1. Would be unlocking certain basic tier 1 professional units.
2. Would be the Transitional Era, where the tier 1 units reform/evolve/unlocks into tier 2 units. This technology would have a long waiting time.
3. Would be the Combined Arms Reformation, or Early Renaissance, where tier 2 units reform/evolve/unlocks into tier 3 units. This technology would have a long waiting time.

4-5. would then be technologies associated with the military tree branch. Such as providing castles for public order for example.

Technologies 2-3 are there to prevent players from mixing units of different time periods together, as well as discouraging a rush to access the next available tier of units. Upgrading units after unlocking a tier should cost no money either. This is designed so that there is an obvious progression of time period. Nobody should look like they are in the 13th century when everybody else is in the 15th century.

[Locus_Devium]

Does the A.I. progresses, too?

Gesendet von meinem SM-G925F mit Tapatalk

[You_Guess_Who]

Of course

[Heisenburrg]

Alright, here are the new military tree concepts (one complex tree and one simplier tree, but with "Era techs"), along with a new blanco tree. For other possible tech effects see post above.

Blanco tree

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Complex tree

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

techs:
0. "High Medieval Warfare" (?)
1. "Tunics and Heraldry"
2. "Late Medieval Knighthood" (needs to be one more square in the right direction!)
3. "Horse Armor/Heavily armored Cavalry"
4. "Vassalage"
5. "Individual combat/Knightly combat"
6. "Mercenary armies"
7. "Longbow/Advanced ranged Combat"
8. "Heavy Infantry/Plate Armor and Polearms"
9. "Combined Arms"
10. "Swiss tactics" (for Pikes and phalanx)
11. "Renaissance Army"
12. "Advanced Poliorcetica" (for non-cannon artillerie)
13. "Gunpowder"
14. "Advanced Gunsmithing and Cannon foundry"
15. "Caulking" (for Cogs)
16. "Tidal drydocks" (for carracks)
17. "Naval gunnery" (for cannon boats)
18. "Modular shipbuilding assembly line"
19. "Gun ports/Ocean sail rigging" (for early galeons)
20. "Tail mounted rudder"
21. "Craweel planking" (for Hulks)
22. "Skeleton-first construction" (for caravels)
23. "Progressive nautic instruments"
24. "New World Expeditions"
25. "Early Modern Warfare"

Techs 0, 6 and 9 could also be handled as "Era techs" because they need most previous techs to be researched. Only problem would be ship development. Castle development could be handled through them too.

Simplier tree with "Era techs"

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Maybe you could also connect the last techs of each tier with the the next "Era tech" to make sure that you have to research all techs from one tier and that you cant go straight through the eras, even if this would take all in all 150 rounds. (e.g tech 1, 5 and 13 with tech 11)


techs:
0. "High Middle Age" (?)
1. "Progressive Poliorcetica" (for non cannon artillerie)
2. "Gunpowder and ranged Combat"
3. "Advanced gunsmithing and Cannon foundry"
4. "Vassalage/High Medieval Knighthood"
5. "Individual knightly combat"
6. "Mercenary armies"
7. "Combined arms"
8. "Plate Armor and Polearms"
9. "Swiss tactics" (for pikes and phalanx)
10. "Outgoing High Middle Era" (?)
11. "Transitional Era"
12. "Renaissance Era"
13. "Caulking" (for cogs)
14. "Tidal drydocks" (for carracks)
15. "Naval Gunnery" (for cannon boats9
16. "Modular shipbuilding assembly line/Gun port/Ocean sail rigging" (for early galeons)
17. "Tail mounted rudder"
18. "Craweel planking" (for hulks)
19. "Skeleton-First Construction" (for caravels)
20. "Progressive nautic instruments"
21. "New World expedition"
22. "Early Modern warfare"

Techs 10, 11 and 12 would be the "Era techs" with a long research time. (Maybe you could highlight them from the other techs, making a bronze, silver or golden star for the icons or sth like that) They serve as aesthetical border for navy and army subbranch and unlock units and castles. Other military buildings could still be locked by the "side trees", as well as different boosts, special units or formations.