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Thread: DaC - Official Suggestions Thread

  1. #2441

    Default Re: DaC - Official Suggestions Thread

    i wish to revisit my previous request with a little bit more refinement, for my Northern Dunedain roster change request

    Pre Barracks event

    Recruitment post- allows for the recruitment of Local militia and Woodsman (just lumber with a name change)

    Hunters post/hunters camp
    - allows for the recruitment of woodland hunter (with tier 2 allowing for more to be recruited)

    Town hall chain- Dunedain rangers and scouts

    Post barracks event

    Barracks- allows for the recruitment of the AOR foot units as well as Dunedain Sergants ( the wardens but with more armor and the look of the men at arms) the men at arms and the blade masters.

    Practice Range- Dunedain Bowmen (formally sworn Bows) and dunedain steel bows (when in the correct settlement), AOR bow units

    stables- Dunedain Cavalry, Artherdain Royal Guard (when in the right settlements), Cardolan lancers.

    Also to furthern change to way get troops in order to have the cordolans all over the Old Kingdom the Barrow downs must be rebuilt and if you want the same for the dunedain the House of kings must be rebuilt. this reshuffle will also free up unit slots to be used elsewere also

  2. #2442

    Default Re: DaC - Official Suggestions Thread

    Dear all,

    I think that the expansion of the ''Dac lore'' in the game is wonderfull. Without breaking the original lore you add so much feel to factions that would otherwise be a bit empty. The men/elves choice with Dorwinion is a great example of using the lore in combination with game mechanics to make the faction so much more fun and interesting.

    The adding of the new Nazgul stories is another example. The great thing about the Nazgul lore is that it adds lots of story without having to make a dozen scripts and game mechanics.

    What is your opinion about Dac fans adding stories to other characters? I would love to add some little lore friendly backstories to add to some Enedwaith chieftains for example. Without you needing to make any scripts you still will be expanding the Enedwaith faction with a bit of story. Maybe adding a trait to represent the story but nothing fancy.

    I would love to hear your opinion about this!

    Kind regards

  3. #2443

    Default Re: DaC - Official Suggestions Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Northern-Ranger View Post
    i wish to revisit my previous request with a little bit more refinement, for my Northern Dunedain roster change request

    Pre Barracks event

    Recruitment post- allows for the recruitment of Local militia and Woodsman (just lumber with a name change)

    Hunters post/hunters camp
    - allows for the recruitment of woodland hunter (with tier 2 allowing for more to be recruited)

    Town hall chain- Dunedain rangers and scouts

    Post barracks event

    Barracks- allows for the recruitment of the AOR foot units as well as Dunedain Sergants ( the wardens but with more armor and the look of the men at arms) the men at arms and the blade masters.

    Practice Range- Dunedain Bowmen (formally sworn Bows) and dunedain steel bows (when in the correct settlement), AOR bow units

    stables- Dunedain Cavalry, Artherdain Royal Guard (when in the right settlements), Cardolan lancers.

    Also to furthern change to way get troops in order to have the cordolans all over the Old Kingdom the Barrow downs must be rebuilt and if you want the same for the dunedain the House of kings must be rebuilt. this reshuffle will also free up unit slots to be used elsewere also
    Do note that in V4 all Dunedain units are available the world over from the T3 barracks. They do require a higher than usual culture but they are simply no longer restricted.

    We haven't any plans to make the early tier roster of the ND a watered down Bree. The mod has always been and will always be about diversity and making the world suitable for a Total War game. We cannot have eveyr faction true to lore because then the game would be abotu 7 factions going at it.

    Quote Originally Posted by sarkraft View Post
    Dear all,

    I think that the expansion of the ''Dac lore'' in the game is wonderfull. Without breaking the original lore you add so much feel to factions that would otherwise be a bit empty. The men/elves choice with Dorwinion is a great example of using the lore in combination with game mechanics to make the faction so much more fun and interesting.

    The adding of the new Nazgul stories is another example. The great thing about the Nazgul lore is that it adds lots of story without having to make a dozen scripts and game mechanics.

    What is your opinion about Dac fans adding stories to other characters? I would love to add some little lore friendly backstories to add to some Enedwaith chieftains for example. Without you needing to make any scripts you still will be expanding the Enedwaith faction with a bit of story. Maybe adding a trait to represent the story but nothing fancy.

    I would love to hear your opinion about this!

    Kind regards
    If you want to write little stories of the chieftains of Enedwiath or what not, then please do, I'd be glad to add them to the game.

  4. #2444

    Default Re: DaC - Official Suggestions Thread

    Hi Guys,

    Firstly, I just wanted to say I love this mod and appreciate the fantastic effort put in by the team.

    From Arachir developer diaries, I understand in later versions there will be an implementation of the Reunited Kingdom script.

    Would it be possible to give this option to the Ar Adunaim? were they would have to fulfil certain objectives, which would be difficult.
    One way to go about the script is giving the option to side with Sauron, or to claim the lordship of Gondor for yourself. Either way would lead to conflict with Gondor and ND as they would never submit to, Black Numenorians. However, going against Sauron will also lead to all evil factions turning against you, the rewards and risks can be balanced out so it is actually a meaningful decision.

    Furthermore, this could still flow with the AA being a Horde nation as they could start in the North instead and maybe claim Arnor first.

    Looking forward to hearing every ones thought's on this.

  5. #2445

    Default Re: DaC - Official Suggestions Thread

    The thing about the Ar Adunaim is that in this version of the lore they exalt Ar Pharazon and claim to take pride in their heritage and history... Well Sauron betrayed Ar Pharazon and did him very dirty. The whole "attack Valinor bro" thing ended up going terribly and to add insult to injury Sauron demolished Ar Pharazon's statue later in Umbar because he was booty blasted that at one moment in history he had the will and strength to make Sauron his prisoner. So having them then side with Sauron with the beliefs that they have is a bit weird... of course reality is a bit weird and things like that do happen in real life where historical events and characters become idolized and made into symbols of ideas that they themselves vehemently despised and fought against in their own lifetime.

  6. #2446

    Default Re: DaC - Official Suggestions Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by UncleBilbo View Post
    The thing about the Ar Adunaim is that in this version of the lore they exalt Ar Pharazon and claim to take pride in their heritage and history... Well Sauron betrayed Ar Pharazon and did him very dirty. The whole "attack Valinor bro" thing ended up going terribly and to add insult to injury Sauron demolished Ar Pharazon's statue later in Umbar because he was booty blasted that at one moment in history he had the will and strength to make Sauron his prisoner. So having them then side with Sauron with the beliefs that they have is a bit weird... of course reality is a bit weird and things like that do happen in real life where historical events and characters become idolized and made into symbols of ideas that they themselves vehemently despised and fought against in their own lifetime.
    I agree that the DaC lore for the Ar Adunaim is more in line with Ar-Pharazon pre-corruption by Sauron. However, I see the AA desiring power and wealth two things which Sauron could exploit to have them align with him, hence the option to join Sauron for a certain reward such as, access to the same benefits Khand gets if they stand with Mordor. On the other hand, the main aim of the script would be to go at it alone and replicate the great feat of Ar-Pharazon and humiliate Sauron, which would entice Gondor and Arnor to join the AA and form the Reunited Kingdom. Nevertheless, there would also be opposition from both Aragorn and Denethor, so both would have to be dealt with as well.

    Ultimately, joining Sauron is the easier and less rewarding of the two options whereas, going at it alone and claiming the Kingship of Arnor and Gondor would be a lot harder but, ultimately more rewarding.

  7. #2447

    Default Re: DaC - Official Suggestions Thread

    I suggest to change the Olg Hai unit to make them into a slightly smaller elite unit perhaps of 30 men using two handed weapon. They're boring right now and are just bigger badder troll units. A more lore friendly interpretation of them is that they are instead smaller and weaker than trolls and perhaps are half-men half-trolls (since Olog Hai means Troll Folk or Troll Man). Another indicator is that the fellowship of the ring couldn't kill 1 cave troll in Moria but in the battle at the black gate pippin killed a troll so the trolls there were weaker not stronger.

    Though since the game is very dependent on recruiting times both trolls and Olog Hai make it into the roster since they're both better than worthless orc trash... However if another unit is added called Troll Bonecleavers or something which acts as a stepping stone between trolls and Olog Hai and performs just like them (very small numbers and very tough with a large troll size) it too would be a must take for your army but that doesn't mean it's a very creative or fun unit because it's just a beefier clone of another unit.

  8. #2448

    Default Re: DaC - Official Suggestions Thread

    Hai means folk (people, race), not Man, and Olog-hai being half-trolls is not lore friendly at all.
    "But at the end of the Third Age a troll-race not before seen appeared in southern Mirkwood and in the mountain borders of Mordor. Olog-hai they were called in the Black Speech. That Sauron bred them none doubted, though from what stock was not known. Some held that they were not Trolls but giant Orcs; but the Olog-hai were in fashion of body and mind quite unlike even the largest of Orc-kind, whom they far surpassed in size and power. Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race, strong, agile, fierce and cunning, but harder than stone."
    App. F
    Trolls they were.

    "Lastly, it was in F4 that there entered the passage concerning the new race of Trolls that appeared at the end of the Third Age. Here the name was first Horg-hai, but changed as my father typed the text to Olg-hai (Olog-hai in RK, p. 410). The account of them did not differ from the final form except in the statement of their origin:
    That Sauron bred them none doubted, though from what stock was not known. Some held that they were a cross-breed between trolls and the larger Orcs; others that they were indeed not trolls at all but giant Orcs. Yet there was no kin-ship from the beginning between the stone-trolls and the Orcs that they might breed together;(5) while the Olg-hai were in fashion of mind and body quite unlike even the largest of Orc-kind ..."
    PoME
    No kin-ship.
    Which was a revision from the earlier form of the passage (F2) in which it was asserted they could crossbreed.

    Orcs and Men could crossbreed (see the half-orcs of Saruman (which were not the Uruk-hai)), but not trolls, so no such thing as 'half-trolls'.
    Last edited by Infidel144; February 15, 2020 at 08:00 AM.

  9. #2449

    Default Re: DaC - Official Suggestions Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Infidel144 View Post
    Orcs and Men could crossbreed (see the half-orcs of Saruman (which were not the Uruk-hai)), but not trolls, so no such thing as 'half-trolls'.
    Idk, bc, after the "Mahûd men" of Far Harad were altered by Sauron to the size & strength of the Olog-hai of Sauron, until be Half Trolls, their descendants may could crossbrood with Men or Trolls, bc it's what they were originally & evolved partially. In this case the Half Trolls of Far Harad could have been created by Sauron as part of the wicked tradition to solve the missing part in the crossbreed's line, who knows.

    PS: Idk from where Unclebilbo read that Olog-hai were smaller, when in fact were an advanced breed of Trolls from Sauron, living primarily in Mordor & southern Mirkwood, being the strongest & taller than stone & cave trolls at least, but maybe not compared with Hill/Mountain Trolls or Snow-Trolls.

  10. #2450

    Default Re: DaC - Official Suggestions Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Garnash View Post
    Idk, bc, after the "Mahûd men" of Far Harad were altered by Sauron to the size & strength of the Olog-hai of Sauron, until be Half Trolls, their descendants may could crossbrood with Men or Trolls, bc it's what they were originally & evolved partially. In this case the Half Trolls of Far Harad could have been created by Sauron as part of the wicked tradition to solve the missing part in the crossbreed's line, who knows.
    This is all fan-fiction. The 'troll-men' of Far Harad that are encountered in the Pelennor Fields are simply men that the Gondorians are completely unfamiliar with, and thus liken them to something they have some familiarity with.

    PS: Idk from where Unclebilbo read that Olog-hai were smaller, when in fact were an advanced breed of Trolls from Sauron, living primarily in Mordor & southern Mirkwood, being the strongest & taller than stone & cave trolls at least, but maybe not compared with Hill/Mountain Trolls or Snow-Trolls.
    The Olog-hai are the 'Hill/Mountain Trolls'.

  11. #2451

    Default Re: DaC - Official Suggestions Thread

    Hello there, love playing V3 so far, great work as usual!

    Just a tiny thing I noticed, I'm not sure whether to post here or in the bugs thread: when playing as Gundabad, all the suitors/ candidates for adoption etc. have the normal orc trait instead of snow orc. I'm not sure if that is intentional.
    If it is though I'd suggest to at least give the snow orc trait to all born family members, as my first son just came of age and he has neither snow orc nor orc trait.

  12. #2452

    Default Re: DaC - Official Suggestions Thread

    [QUOTE=Arachir Galudirithon;15875828]Do note that in V4 all Dunedain units are available the world over from the T3 barracks. They do require a higher than usual culture but they are simply no longer restricted.

    We haven't any plans to make the early tier roster of the ND a watered down Bree. The mod has always been and will always be about diversity and making the world suitable for a Total War game. We cannot have eveyr faction true to lore because then the game would be abotu 7 factions going at it.


    My apologies i have gone back through you Dev Dairies and found out that most of the changes you have made fall in line with what i personally disire with ND, although i still have a couple of questions regarding ND.

    1. What has become of the sworn/ local units? (I'm most concerned about the Aworn Armsman since they are quite good)

    2. will the upcoming update feature re-united Kingdoms script ( i imagine that its getting pushed back a version so more time can be spent on it),

    3. if Re-united kingdoms is being pushed back will the new looks for ND still feature?

    Also to weigh in on the Annuminas vs Tharbad thing i would argue that Tharbad was totally destroyed from the flood so is more likely to be repaired compared to Annuminas ,which i belive wasn't attack and instead was just abandoned, and considering that numenorein structures and meants amongst the best i rain would have such and effect that it would crumble to the point of needing such a rebuild.

  13. #2453

    Default Re: DaC - Official Suggestions Thread

    Yeah the similarity between the names Uruk-Hai and Olog-Hai is another indicator that the Olog-Hai are indeed a weaker variant of trolls. The Uruk-Hai were indeed the half-orcs alluded to by treebeard and this can be deduced from how they are able to tolerate the sun unlike regular orcs. I believe there were different kinds of half-orcs just like there are different kinds of hapas. So seeing as the Uruk-Hai are half-orcs it makes sense that the Olog-Hai are half-trolls. I wasn't aware of the comparisons of them to half-orcs and half-trolls but it also adds to the breadth of the lore on them indicating that they are not just beefier scarier trolls but more akin to beefier scarier orcs.

    It would be interesting to see this sort of elite unit used by an evil faction - a unit with 30 or 60 men. They could be even tougher than the half-trolls of Gundabad and maybe be more available too to give the overall weak army of Mordor a leg-up.

  14. #2454

    Default Re: DaC - Official Suggestions Thread

    ^ No; they are not half Orcs. They are "Troll folk" just like Uruk-Hai are "Orc Folk". They are stronger than even other Trolls, there is nothing to suggest that they are a smaller breed.

    http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Olog-hai

  15. #2455

    Default Re: DaC - Official Suggestions Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by UncleBilbo View Post
    Yeah the similarity between the names Uruk-Hai and Olog-Hai is another indicator that the Olog-Hai are indeed a weaker variant of trolls. The Uruk-Hai were indeed the half-orcs alluded to by treebeard and this can be deduced from how they are able to tolerate the sun unlike regular orcs. I believe there were different kinds of half-orcs just like there are different kinds of hapas. So seeing as the Uruk-Hai are half-orcs it makes sense that the Olog-Hai are half-trolls. I wasn't aware of the comparisons of them to half-orcs and half-trolls but it also adds to the breadth of the lore on them indicating that they are not just beefier scarier trolls but more akin to beefier scarier orcs.
    Olog-hai are not half-trolls. Tolkien as I quoted above said "Trolls they were".
    The Uruk-hai were not half-orcs. They were the great soldier-orcs of Mordor and Isengard. Half-orcs (bred by Saruman) are distinguished from the various orcs in both the TT chapter Flotsam & Jetsam and in the Battles of the Fords of Isen in UT.

  16. #2456

    Default Re: DaC - Official Suggestions Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by T.W. Stanforth View Post
    The reponse I want to give: (Insert an intellectual response that argues Gondorians were the 'true' descendants of Númenór, being the 'Dúnedain of the South' who actually managed to maintain their Kingdom, and that the scattered Northern Dúnedain barely resemble the Númenóreans of old).

    The response I need to give: (Reeeeeeeeeeeeee!)
    Maybe to the late already diminished Númenor when they started turning their backs on the Elves, yes. Gondor is like that. They are also largerly race-mixed and many in their country don't even have much Númenorian blood at all.

    The Northern Dúnedain got a reality-check when their crippled kingdom fell, they got their together and lived closely to the elves like the Edain of Beleriand and the Early Númenorians. Gondor on the other hand continued with their arrogance and spiritual diminishing just like Númenor.

    Let's not forget also that Gondor was founded from direct Númenorian colonies no doubt full of King's men and people of neutral stance. Arnor on the other hand were founded from the faithful Númenorians that had emigrated/fled from the king's tyrranny to live close to the elves and faithful to their traditions.
    Arnor was fully faithful while Gondor was late Númenor light, strong in power but weak in morals. With some esceptions ofc, Dol Amroth comes to mind.

  17. #2457

    Default Re: DaC - Official Suggestions Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyddan92 View Post
    Maybe to the late already diminished Númenor when they started turning their backs on the Elves, yes. Gondor is like that. They are also largerly race-mixed and many in their country don't even have much Númenorian blood at all.

    The Northern Dúnedain got a reality-check when their crippled kingdom fell, they got their together and lived closely to the elves like the Edain of Beleriand and the Early Númenorians. Gondor on the other hand continued with their arrogance and spiritual diminishing just like Númenor.

    Let's not forget also that Gondor was founded from direct Númenorian colonies no doubt full of King's men and people of neutral stance. Arnor on the other hand were founded from the faithful Númenorians that had emigrated/fled from the king's tyrranny to live close to the elves and faithful to their traditions.
    Arnor was fully faithful while Gondor was late Númenor light, strong in power but weak in morals. With some esceptions ofc, Dol Amroth comes to mind.
    I agree. Though the Northern Dunedain also had problems with mixing in Rhudaur from what I understand and in the Third Age to claim that they live close to Elves is not very fair. There's a handful of the Rangers of the North left and they mostly skulk around killing orcs and living of the land. Aragorn is a special case because he was raised in Rivendell but many of the Rangers of the North weren't aware of their noble past.

    The men of Gondor by the time of the war of the ring are hardly Dunedain at all. They grow old and die like the men of Rohan. A suggestion I have which would be interesting is to change their culture from Dunedain to Middle Men. This probably also stems from my low opinion of Gondor but it would make the game more interesting as Dol Amroth wouldn't be able to snatch away territories as easily and vice versa. The Enedwaith Clans, however, will be tempted to move into Gondor, which from my experience they rarely do anyway... in my games the AI Enedwaith mostly allies with Gondor. From the player's perspective it makes playing as 'evil Enedwaith' more viable with the strategy of mainly expanding southwards.

  18. #2458

    Default Re: DaC - Official Suggestions Thread

    No Gondor is not going to be given Wildmen as their culture...

  19. #2459

    Default Re: DaC - Official Suggestions Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Hummingbird View Post
    No Gondor is not going to be given Wildmen as their culture...
    Middle Men aren't strictly speaking wildmen. Technically there's very little seperating them and the Northmen, and the Northmen of Anduin are indeed a wildmen faction in this game. Meanwhile the Middle Men of Bree, who can field arnoresque armies of mail-clad swordsmen and lancers with elvish warriors and real Dunedain among their ranks can hardly be considered wildmen.

    There's just an odd dynamic with both Dol Amroth and Gondor having Dundedain culture because it creates a big incentive to squash their supposed ally. It's easier and more beneficial attacking enemies with the same culture because you can steamroll their towns so quickly and use them as your own base without having to build or wait. Gondor in particular starts off with very good choke points so it's quite tempting to hold off the enemy while cleaning up Dol Amroth from pointlessly leeching 3 towns that may be yours.

  20. #2460

    Default Re: DaC - Official Suggestions Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by UncleBilbo View Post
    I agree. Though the Northern Dunedain also had problems with mixing in Rhudaur from what I understand.
    That they did, you are correct in that. I don't think they were as mixed as the average Gondorian were though and the Dúnedain remnants in the north would probably be rather pure in blood. The non-dúnedain commoners survived as the men of Bree. I think anyway, I have never considered how pure or not the rangers actually are.

    Quote Originally Posted by UncleBilbo View Post
    And in the Third Age to claim that they live close to Elves is not very fair. There's a handful of the Rangers of the North left and they mostly skulk around killing orcs and living of the land. Aragorn is a special case because he was raised in Rivendell but many of the Rangers of the North weren't aware of their noble past.
    Are you blooming insane you absolute bellend? They're not aware that they are dúnedain? Really? Their leaders are the very descendants of the kings, who are raised in Rivendell! (It was not only Aragorn, he was special in that he didn't knew who he was.)
    I would call you an absolute tosser for claiming something so daft if I weren't such a lovely polite gentleman.
    I definitely do not believe that at all. And they're frikkin' riding with the sons of Elrond (and probably another Elf here and there) and live were the Elfs make their travels to Mithlond and you claim that they don't live close to them? No sir, I do not think you are correct at all. Feel free to try to change my mind though.

    Quote Originally Posted by UncleBilbo View Post
    The men of Gondor by the time of the war of the ring are hardly Dunedain at all. They grow old and die like the men of Rohan. A suggestion I have which would be interesting is to change their culture from Dunedain to Middle Men. This probably also stems from my low opinion of Gondor but it would make the game more interesting as Dol Amroth wouldn't be able to snatch away territories as easily and vice versa. The Enedwaith Clans, however, will be tempted to move into Gondor, which from my experience they rarely do anyway... in my games the AI Enedwaith mostly allies with Gondor. From the player's perspective it makes playing as 'evil Enedwaith' more viable with the strategy of mainly expanding southwards.
    I do agree on that, generally they aren't that much Dúnedain thanks to mixing and immigration of northmen. However the nobility as well as certain areas (Dol Amroth) still are rather pure in their Númenorian heritage. And without doubt there are probably a sizeable minority of Gondorians with rather high amounts of Númenorian blood still remaining.
    As for changing the culture of Gondor... it's interesting for sure but I don't think it should be changed. To many people would complain about them not being Dúnedain and frankly, that's still the dominating culture of the Gondorian state. Certain Gondorian areas should have much more middlemen culture than Dúnedain though to show this fact. I Something I think many of them already are.
    Last edited by Hyddan92; February 23, 2020 at 05:35 PM.

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