Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 46

Thread: Imladris Overhaul Discussion thread

  1. #1

    Icon3 Imladris Overhaul Discussion thread

    Discussion

    I remember my first campaign on TATW 3.2 with Imladris. Play until the turn 200s and field a full stack of Eldarinwë Archers to crush the endless doomstacks of Mordor and Harad before they reached your lines. At the time TATW still felt new so I was very happy playing a rather vanilla conquest campaign - ally all good factions, conquer your way to Mordor. The awesome aesthetic of the Eldarinwë is very immersive and feels more powerful than anything in base Med 2. As I neared 1000 hours on this game 2 years ago the appeal of Imladris and most of my similar favorite factions, city-states like KD Umbar and Isengard, went from micromanaging a conquering empire to "play your way" (cheat and turtle) campaigns. I imagine most of the longtime DaC players are no longer fans of waiting 90 turns for a half-interesting HE army.

    Anyway, now Imladris has somehow become a sub-polished faction, a true testament to the quality of v3.0, and a faction overhaul is back on the menu. If the team has already decided on the direction of the rework then damn. However the game is polished enough that the team can and should try something bold. I have a vision for this faction and I'll do my best to explain it in this thread. I hope, at the very least, to inspire an idea that makes it into the next patch.


    Suggestion 1 - No Militia tier, 90% developed Rivendell

    Imladris Garrison at turn 1 is Elrond, Imladris Guards and Imladris Rangers.
    Imladris is fully developed at game start excluding Armory, Siege Line, t1 military production.
    Make "Militia" Tier from t1 military production Eldarinwë.
    Gate the availability of Quendi and Nanohtar behind attaining a certain amount of settlements including Eregion. Unique building gives City_Guards/Rangers and size-nerfed Tulkas Faithful all on 25-50 turn replenishment depending on the unit.
    Eregion is the only other source of Recruitment until you rebuild it. Restoration of smiths by turn 100 easy.
    Rebuilding Eregion smiths and allied control of KD-West makes t2 military production and Nanohtar available (and Eregion Smiths, 45 unit size).
    Conquering more regions after Reclamation of Eregion and Barracks event unlocks t3 military production and Quendi.
    Quendi and Nanohtar get full visual armor upgrades. Quendi size down to 90.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Imladris' early game should be fun because of its Hero bodyguards and the sparseness of units. One of the most fun aspects of a campaign is having those early units that are extremely important and not to be wasted. Unfortunately, Imladris' early game comes off as bland for a simple reason: You can take any settlement at no cost. The cause of the easy battles is not the 3 hero bodyguards with 30 units fighting together, its the Quendi Militia tier. They keep your uber bodyguards from being stun locked and are themselves strong, and more importantly the stakes of the battles are low since Quendi are soon replenishable. It would make more sense to have a smaller starting garrison consisting of the actual Imladris Guards. Make the so called militia-tier of Imladris the Imladris Guards and rangers, only recruitable in Rivendell, with 20 turn+ replenishment. A dwindling population, containing warriors with thousands of years of training, is ordering under-armored (very skilled) elves of the precious populace to rush Goblin-Town or Zagh Kala? And to be the first levied in defense of Rivendell? I say nay, the full-time protectors of Imladris present in the city at game start are the silver rangers and guards seen in the first hobbit film and already in the roster. The first soldiers levied would be more of these two units, as well as the professional warriors that have not worn their golden armor since the last alliance. Only once the general people can be properly armored would they be sent to their doom. Perhaps if the High Elf king rekindles the kingdom of Eregion, then the Quendi might find hope in their enlistment, and only then would a growing population of the HE allow for the sacrifice of "common" elves.

    Second in regards to the early game, I think the team should attempt a city-state that starts mostly developed. Yes, building the buildings is core game play and it provides a sense of reward. Meh, that's literally every faction all the time. Nearby Eregion is a perfect building project! The unique building in Imladris at turn 1 can have a smaller unit of Tulkas faithful available and your second unit of Imladris Guards ready to train, with the second unit of Imladris Rangers shortly available. The 4 only other units you should have available to you also replenishing every 30 turns with the first available at turn 4 are the Eldarinwë coming from your t1 barracks/archery/stables. If you want to arm these warriors faster in the early game you need the production in Eregion, also the ruined unique building here gives tulkas faithful and eregion smiths when rebuilt at the end of the smiths line. Yes, I suggest HE elites be the only recruitable units from T1 buildings on long replenishment and AOR.

    With such low recruitment numbers holding all three regions is going to be a challenge against Dunland and OoM. You might also ask, wheres the opportunity for production growth? Well I admit this is a script suggestion, but a simple one at that. If Elrond reclaims Eregion and starts arming his people there, and then the gates of Khazad-dűm West open for trade once again, and the kingdom expands further than Eregion... Once a HE kingdom is back on the table, elves would start fighting for the cause, armament and training would need to increase, therefore we might make available at this point t2 military buildings to produce nanohtar anywhere. One issue I have here is that T1 military buildings in non-AOR regions are literally useless until they become t2 if nanohtar aren't made recruitable at t1. Lastly, when the barracks event hits and you have reclaimed the kingdom of Eregion you get t3 military production. T3 can produce Quendi. Lots of Quendi (relatively). You can arm them at smiths to look like your elites but they wont be trained like them. Make Quendi unit size 90 (12 less than Eldarinwë). On their own, the Eldarinwë you get from your 3 core regions can only go so far, and their losses in the early game will not be replenishable. They become too few to cover large borders later.

    Concerns: Uselesness of t1 barracks in non-Elven regions, relevance of KD in Eregion Reclamation, player is forced to take Eregion ASAP. Please give your thoughts.
    Suggestion 2 - Imladris player can call invasions (Quests)


    "Strangers from different lands, friends of old. You have been summoned here to answer the threat of [___], you will unite or you will fail".
    (yes it's already the ring script quote)

    Imladris has the political power and the righteous conviction necessary to gather the leaders of its allies. Eastern good nations, in practice, will struggle too hard to path find to settlements in Eriador, and their early game balance is very fragile, so only Eriador factions can join the invasion and the target must be west of the Misty Mountains. Ered Luin AI does not struggle with defending itself early or ever, and only if the AI Dwarven ring script is accepted would these Dwarves decline the call of Imladris. Lindon is always available, and would be a steadfast responder to invasions called. Bree will likely be at war already with that faction. For the sake of strategy the Imladris player ideally calls invasions against the greatest threat to Bree and ND (Dunland or Angmar or OoM). Angsűl, Carn Dum, Dun Larach, Tharbad, Goblin Town, and my favorite choice Khazad-Dűm West would be targeted 95% of games at low risk for the factions that join.

    I believe Med 2 allows for multiple invasion sources with the possibility of calling a defensive invasion on a settlement being targeted. The mechanics of Invasions are well understood by the DaC team i'm sure if they would say no to this it would be a simple, immediate no.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Imladris Overhaul Discussion thread

    All starting forces are t2-t3, but unreplenishable till the t2-t3 barracks are built, representing the relic force of few ancient elves, kinda like an Honor Guard, militias are recruitable at the start, if you are depleted of your small fragment of ancient elven glory, you have to survive on militias and dunedain, barracks should be t1, siege equipment building unbuilt, I think other utility buildings should be built at the start(at least the first or second tiers), like mines and smiths and irrigation, since the upkeep of starting force will be high I think this would even that as well. A

  3. #3

    Default Re: Imladris Overhaul Discussion thread

    I'll be honest; at first glance your tier limiting and eradication of the Tier 1 Militia sounded insane.
    But the more I think about it theoneringshow, it makes more and more sense. What a way to make a unique campaign! And who knows; maybe if the DaC team expanded this logic to other elven factions, they could really make them feel distinctive AND free up some unit slots at the same time!

  4. #4

    Default Re: Imladris Overhaul Discussion thread

    Meh i dont know the elven early game is already slow because you are restricted in units (whenever i play them i run out of units to put into settlements at the start to garrsion them). Adding this would increase the ridiculous slow start of them even further. But thats a personal preference of mine.

    In case this is the way the modding team decides to go with Imladris then we need to make this "player only" because im 99% sure the A.I will not be able to handle this kind of gameplay (unless you give them ridiculous amounts of money + settlements at turn 2 + reduced replenishments from the start).

  5. #5

    Default Re: Imladris Overhaul Discussion thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Tureuki View Post
    All starting forces are t2-t3... if you are depleted of your small fragment of ancient elven glory, you have to survive on militias and dunedain
    If we increase the power of the starting garrison, AND we leave Quendi recruitable early, the campaign becomes braindead easy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Samael. View Post
    make this "player only" because im 99% sure the A.I will not be able to handle this kind of gameplay (unless you give them ridiculous amounts of money + settlements at turn 2 + reduced replenishments from the start).
    AI being able to handle few recruitment options early is generally a huge challenge to balance. However, the Imladris AI of v3.0 sticks to Imladris and occasionally Eregion because it already can't recruit enough units to its liking. I imagine removing Quendi and giving it 2-3 Eldarinwë will keep it exactly as it is. A more likely problem is that the mod team wants to give Imladris AI more impact.

  6. #6
    Burlini's Avatar Libertus
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Location
    Amsterdam
    Posts
    59

    Default Re: Imladris Overhaul Discussion thread

    An idea that's been in my mind for some time now is to have unique Elderlnwë bodyguards. Maybe it's possible to severely limit Imladris starting recruitment and in return give them the 3 Noldorin Units and have the other generals bodyguard be Elderinwë swordsmen, archers and spearmen? I don't think a lot of people would like the Noldorin guard to be replaced by the Elderinwe Unit's so this is my suggestion.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Imladris Overhaul Discussion thread

    I do believe that this is a very interesting idea. The Noldor are a people in retreat, their goal is not to conquer a large domain in Middle Earth, but to guide the Men of the West in to victory over Sauron and subsequently take up the mantle of protecting the World. They are very few in number and are not slowly mobilising and drawing strength from their realm, for they are already veterans of the Second Age and have long since passed their 'peak'. It is an interesting idea to reflect this by granting them early but scarce access to very elite troops, though I doubt the AI would be able to manage that correctly.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Imladris Overhaul Discussion thread

    I do believe there are still Noldorin from the First Age that have remained on Middle-Earth. I usually make the Noldorin Guard available to recruit with higher numbers but also make them ridiculously expensive to maintain.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Imladris Overhaul Discussion thread

    Literally turning them into Rhűn, right? That would unironically be perfect!

    Too bad Arachîr is deleting Imladris in V4.0, lolz Because DaC is totally not for having many unique factions, right? lolz

    I understand it's for the Reunited Kingdom slot. But I've never been a fan of the Dúnedain anyway. The ND Beacon of Hope recruitment already fulfills the fantasy of peace among the Mannish races.
    Adűnâi != Adonai

  10. #10

    Default Re: Imladris Overhaul Discussion thread

    It isn't for the Reunited Kingdom slot. I don't know where that misconception has come from.

    We have merged the High Elves because we want to.

    You are completely right though, having 26 instead of 27 playable factions instead of TATW's 13 factions is absolutely not diverse.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Imladris Overhaul Discussion thread

    This change was very unexpected, and while altering LotR lore is always a bold move to say the least, I must admit I am excited for this change, and all current changes of lore have been very tastefully done by the team. I think the main challenge will be balancing the idea of ruling two kingdoms, say having a unique feeling when focusing on your Lindon kingdom vs focusing on your Eregion kingdom. I expect the main strategy will be going South with both kingdoms and attempting to form a land connection via Enedwaith, before enacting vengeance on Sauron. I'd love for an aggressive and bloodthirsty campaign, one hell bent on vengeance against the forces of Evil (in true Noldor spirit).

  12. #12

    Default Re: Imladris Overhaul Discussion thread

    It makes sense, Imladris as a separate faction was always a bit shoehorned. They were basically Mithlond but with a harder starting position rather than Elrond's little retreat.

  13. #13
    Dutch-Balrog's Avatar Domesticus
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Amsterdam
    Posts
    2,185

    Default Re: Imladris Overhaul Discussion thread

    Imladris as it's own faction makes no sense anyways, since there are like what, 50-ish elves who live there?

  14. #14

    Default Re: Imladris Overhaul Discussion thread

    I approve of the change, particularly since now the High Elves seem very rare and special and are not available everywhere. Will there be some regions where they can't get any units at all? What about forest regions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mapengraf View Post
    Too bad Arachîr is deleting Imladris in V4.0, lolz Because DaC is totally not for having many unique factions, right? lolz
    ]
    Neither High Elven faction was very unique from the other though.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Imladris Overhaul Discussion thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Arachir Galudirithon View Post
    It isn't for the Reunited Kingdom slot. I don't know where that misconception has come from.

    We have merged the High Elves because we want to.

    You are completely right though, having 26 instead of 27 playable factions instead of TATW's 13 factions is absolutely not diverse.
    The real question is what is that free slot going to be used for: I'm pretty sure we have every faction covered short off say something crazy like Orocani expediationaries or a civilized and disciplined Wildman faction like the Kingdom of Saralinn, I can't see the point of leaving one free slot without something to fill it.
    Supreme Commander of the Galactic Federation, Emperor of the Virtupets Empire, Star King
    Certified Genius
    M L I G: Mandy Luxe is the Greatest
    Erasiel Darkar is OP! Never will be nerfed! He is Winx



  16. #16

    Default Re: Imladris Overhaul Discussion thread

    I see Imadris as being the last descendants of Fëanáro and Celebrimbor. Being able to reclaim Ost-in-Edhil as their legacy. Being able to get Dwarven levels of smithing in the Celebrimborian Plate (I know Lindon could get it, too, but still). Having only one last holdout, the Last Homely House, right next to the hordes of Orcs.

    But what's the point of arguing if everybody is happy with the change? Or at least the vast majority who care little about the distinctions among the Ńoldor?

    Would be really hyped about the addition of a Balchoth/Rhovanion faction /s
    Adűnâi != Adonai

  17. #17
    Dutch-Balrog's Avatar Domesticus
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Amsterdam
    Posts
    2,185

    Default Re: Imladris Overhaul Discussion thread

    Would be neat to have a Balcoth faction, but unit limits..

  18. #18

    Default Re: Imladris Overhaul Discussion thread

    With that said, I wouldn't like to come out as an ungrateful brat. Alongside others, I do share the sentiment that you turn everything you touch into good things. And if I remember corrected, you "promised" you would leave modding years ago, after v2.2, so all that has and will come is a nice extra either way.

    There are many ways to present Ńoldor in-game, the more the better (after all, the previous versions are not getting deleted).
    Adűnâi != Adonai

  19. #19

    Default Re: Imladris Overhaul Discussion thread

    The direction the team chose makes a lot of sense. I like the removal of the Quendi, and their replacement with the militia tier of Lindon actually fits in the cannon and my perceived philosophy of a realm like Rivendell. Also, Eldarinwë recruitment will be gated by reclaiming Eregion. Great. I do hope that reclaiming the 2 regions on the way to Eregion, Hollin, and Eregion itself is not downplayed, and I expect new messages when most of these settlements are conquered. I also hope reclaiming the entirety of Eregion has an immediate reward in terms of elite warriors that can be armored.

    I think there is still room to add a trade/kings purse bonus when khazad dum is secured by allies and Eregion is rebuilt, to recall the power of the trade-kingdom between KD and Eregion in the second age, and to enable the high elves economy which usually never supports over 1 stack
    .
    Also, about Glorfindel, High elves will start with 4 regions. Claiming 6 more will give you Glorfindel? Seems a little too easy, although id prefer it this way to getting Glorfindel on turn 60+.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Imladris Overhaul Discussion thread

    Another suggestion: Help must come to Rivendell. That region should not have enough unit production potential in the first 30 turns to take Eregion back on its own (not counting the power of heroes)

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •