Medieval Kingdoms Total War: The Duchy of Lorraine

[Azrien Fox]

Very impressive man. I really like how you did the horse bardings. Are you going to make some proper Lorraine banner carriers? I could tell the one's in the shots are from the HRE faction.

Actually, do you mean the banner carrier person? I made them myself...

[Visarion]

This is a very nice manuscript!

http://manuscriptminiatures.com/search/?manuscript=3989

There are some intriguing representations of two-handed axemen, large shield guards and so on. What's the deal with them and how can we represent them? Were they a contingent or just isolated individuals? Was the one carrying that tower shield part of a elite corps or just a deffender of a general/captain/officer of some sort!? I also see at the end of the pike/spear formation persons with large shields on their back. What's the deal with them? Deffence against ranged attacks/arrow fire?

[Azrien Fox]

This is a very nice manuscript!

http://manuscriptminiatures.com/search/?manuscript=3989

There are some intriguing representations of two-handed axemen, large shield guards and so on. What's the deal with them and how can we represent them? Were they a contingent or just isolated individuals? Was the one carrying that tower shield part of a elite corps or just a deffender of a general/captain/officer of some sort!? I also see at the end of the pike/spear formation persons with large shields on their back. What's the deal with them? Deffence against ranged attacks/arrow fire?

I'll have to see. The institution of Besançon is just south of lorraine, which is accurate, but the origin is from Paris. I'll have to see if it works. Also, i can start making some of those tabards. We have transitional tabard models now like those shown, courtesy of sly. I can always add those to units like maybe the hecht de mann, the sradt halberd and maybe guild halberd, since they're shown a lot with pike and spear units.

I could also maybe add them to the merchant marines, but they were sort of my own design, and thought maybe they wouldn't work with the tight armour a marine would wear. I could try and add some basic colored tabards into the mix.

[Azrien Fox]

Alright, jager-crossbows have been added, and that completes all the units I have for Lorraine on the forum!

Always still plenty to work on and finish, like... *cough* generals *cough* I'll probably be start working on the generals, and update the thread with generals when I have em completed. Here's what I was thinking of generals for the three tiers:

Tier 1 - Theobald I

Tier 2 - Fredrick IV and Rudolph the Valiant

Tier 3 - Charles II and Rene II


As always, feel free to leave suggestions and feedback about units, generals or otherwise.

[Knight2708]

Alright, jager-crossbows have been added,

Very nice, although I would argue that some of the brighter colors like red and blue dont fit very well for hunters, maybe adding in some more green instead would make them look more realistic.

Also could you update some of the older screenshots in the OP at some point? A lot of them have this kind of tinged desaturated look that makes it hard to get a real impression of the colors of the units.

[Azrien Fox]

Very nice, although I would argue that some of the brighter colors like red and blue dont fit very well for hunters, maybe adding in some more green instead would make them look more realistic.

Also could you update some of the older screenshots in the OP at some point? A lot of them have this kind of tinged desaturated look that makes it hard to get a real impression of the colors of the units.

Oh yeah good idea, I'll add some black and green aketons instead.

Also, yeah I really should replace those photos. Ill probably retake them and reupload the new screenshots later today.

[You_Guess_Who]

Always start with the generic bodyguard unit, they'll the ones running the show in Campaign. Remember that there can only be 1 faction leader with special bodyguard in-game, and the named generals are custom battle only - so the generic general bodyguards are of utmost importance. The rest can follow.

[Azrien Fox]

Always start with the generic bodyguard unit, they'll the ones running the show in Campaign. Remember that there can only be 1 faction leader with special bodyguard in-game, and the named generals are custom battle only - so the generic general bodyguards are of utmost importance. The rest can follow.

Wait, so you mean instead of having custom generals, I
Should have just Duke of Lorraine as the general name for tier 1? Or for all tiers? Because id really like to keep Rudolph and rene as custom generals.

[Maroni_The_Bat2]

I think he means that you can create the custom generals you want, just make the gen bodyguard unit first, as the custom generals aren't immortal.

[Azrien Fox]

Ah okay I see, so make the bodyguard, post them, then post the general with the bodyguard? Okay then.

[You_Guess_Who]

I mean work in this order:

1. Regular General Bodyguards. This is your normal general unit for regular nobles. All of your generals except your factional leader will have them as their general unit. Finish this first, then;
2. Duke of Lorraine's Bodyguards. This is the bodyguard that only can be used by the faction's leader. Take your normal general bodyguard, make them better, give unique appearance. Only if this is done, you can do:
3. Named Generals. This is Custom Battle only unit, hence the least priority.

I have to stress this because when watching AoC 1078 and MK 1295 gameplays, I saw several factions which every army are led by Emperor and Kings' bodyguard, even if they're not the faction's leader! You surely do not want multiple Rudolf the Valiants running around Europe, don't you?
In short, I see several faction roster where the developers forgot to make regular general bodyguards for generals who aren't kings, emperors, grand dukes, or famed generals.
So yes, I'd like to see unique named generals, but do not forget regular unnamed general bodyguards.

[Azrien Fox]

I mean work in this order:

1. Regular General Bodyguards. This is your normal general unit for regular nobles. All of your generals except your factional leader will have them as their general unit. Finish this first, then;
2. Duke of Lorraine's Bodyguards. This is the bodyguard that only can be used by the faction's leader. Take your normal general bodyguard, make them better, give unique appearance. Only if this is done, you can do:
3. Named Generals. This is Custom Battle only unit, hence the least priority.

I have to stress this because when watching AoC 1078 and MK 1295 gameplays, I saw several factions which every army are led by Emperor and Kings' bodyguard, even if they're not the faction's leader! You surely do not want multiple Rudolf the Valiants running around Europe, don't you?
In short, I see several faction roster where the developers forgot to make regular general bodyguards for generals who aren't kings, emperors, grand dukes, or famed generals.
So yes, I'd like to see unique named generals, but do not forget regular unnamed general bodyguards.

Okay... So instead of having multiple named dukes, I should have Duke's bodyguard in all tiers, and then have Rene and Rudolph in their own unique bodyguard?

So it would be instead:

Tier 1 - Duke's bodyguard
Tier 2 - Duke's bodyguard, Rudolph the Valiant
Tier 3 - Duke's bodyguard, Rene II

And with those bodyguard, I would just have my knights with a noble officer, and then have the dukes themselves in a better more unique bodyguard?

[You_Guess_Who]

Correct, however you still forgot the non-duke bodyguard. So, to make things clearer:

Tier 1:
- Lord's Retainers/Guard (Or any more suitable name) - Campaign generic general
- Duke of Lorraine - Campaign faction leader unit

Tier 2:
- Lord's Retainers/Guard (Or any more suitable name) - Campaign generic general
- Duke of Lorraine - Campaign faction leader unit
- Duke Rudolf the Valiant - Named Custom Battle general (special unitcard and officer)

Tier 3:
- Lord's Retainers/Guard (Or any more suitable name) - Campaign generic general
- Duke of Lorraine - Campaign faction leader unit
- Duke Rene II of Lorraine - Named Custom Battle general (special unitcard and officer)

[Azrien Fox]

Correct, however you still forgot the non-duke bodyguard. So, to make things clearer:

Tier 1:
- Lord's Retainers/Guard (Or any more suitable name) - Campaign generic general
- Duke of Lorraine - Campaign faction leader unit

Tier 2:
- Lord's Retainers/Guard (Or any more suitable name) - Campaign generic general
- Duke of Lorraine - Campaign faction leader unit
- Duke Rudolf the Valiant - Named Custom Battle general

Tier 3:
- Lord's Retainers/Guard (Or any more suitable name) - Campaign generic general
- Duke of Lorraine - Campaign faction leader unit
- Duke Rene II of Lorraine - Named Custom Battle general

Oooh okay, now that you put it that way it makes sense. So basically there are certain purposes for each gen unit: I.e. campaign general, campaign faction leader, and custom battle ggeneral. Okay, so in the end, I would be using at least 6-9 general units.


Also, I might leave out Theobald I since I want Rudolf and Rene to be the more important dukes of Lorraine, seeing as how they have custom units.

[Azrien Fox]

Alright so I was thinking that, since the house of Lorraine wasnt actually the reigning house in the duchy until Rene II's rule in 1473, that for the generic general units I would do the houses that reigned: House of Ardennes, House of Metz (it was actually Ardennes-Metz, but I thought I could split it up to cover both periods), and House of Anjou. That way, the units would be called:

Tier 1 - Count / Barons / House-guard of Ardennes-Metz

Tier 2 - Count / Barons / House-guard of Bar / Vaudemont

Tier 3 - Count / Barons / House-guard of Anjou / Lorraine

The first section is interchangeable, but I wanted to use the names of the houses that ruled / were vassals of Lorraine, so I thought House guard would be an interesting third choice. And also the houses are also interchangeable, as more than one house was important in the duchy at each period. I could always put both together, maybe to have it more diverse? Always an option. What do you guys think?

[Azrien Fox]

Alright, updated the older dark photos by the request of Knight!

[Knight2708]

Alright, updated the older dark photos by the request of Knight!

Thanks, finally we can see the units in their full glory.

I've been thinking a bit more about unit names and I think that "Bas-Rhin Spießer" would probably be a better name than "Bas-Rhin Schiltron Miliz". "Spießer" means pikeman in Medieval German (it has a completely different meaning in modern German) and is afaik mostly used for urban/militia troops. I am also generally a bit skeptical of the use of the term "Schiltron" for the tier 1 and 2 pikemen, as I always though that it was a term only used by the Scots, maybe a French term for the tier 2 version, alongside the already suggested German term for tier 1, would be more appropriate.

Also one final thing, as I already said about the tier 2 "Dismounted Coutiliers", the tier 2 "Schiltron Lanciers" probably shouldn't have bascinets with visors, as those were used mostly by mounted knights.

[Azrien Fox]

Thanks, finally we can see the units in their full glory.

I've been thinking a bit more about unit names and I think that "Bas-Rhin Spießer" would probably be a better name than "Bas-Rhin Schiltron Miliz". "Spießer" means pikeman in Medieval German (it has a completely different meaning in modern German) and is afaik mostly used for urban/militia troops. I am also generally a bit skeptical of the use of the term "Schiltron" for the tier 1 and 2 pikemen, as I always though that it was a term only used by the Scots, maybe a French term for the tier 2 version, alongside the already suggested German term for tier 1, would be more appropriate.

Well, I had them in there because I wanted to have pikemen in early and mid tier, and then the late tier shows the adoption of the pikes and pike tactics made famous by the Swiss. I also had them in the earlier tiers because the region Bas-Rhin directly borders the Swiss Confederacy. For the Schiltron, they dont use an actual pike, but a schiltron spear, so in the late tier, the hecht de mann actually use a pike. I could look into maybe changing the name, but would it make sense? I guess if the Schiltron part refers to the tactical formation bit and not the type of weapon, it would work.

Also one final thing, as I already said about the tier 2 "Dismounted Coutiliers", the tier 2 "Schiltron Lanciers" probably shouldn't have bascinets with visors, as those were used mostly by mounted knights.

Yeah, I have edited them, I just need to take a new photo of them and upload it.

[banskie100]

wonderful units mate!

[Locus_Devium]

Is it on purpose that some of the militia units did not have shields?
Basically a shield was one of the cheapest ways to get protective gear for a medieval soldier.

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