Results 1 to 10 of 10

Thread: Total War: Eras section re-organisation

  1. #1
    Frunk's Avatar The Duke Will Return...
    Patrician Moderator Emeritus

    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    5,930

    Default Total War: Eras section re-organisation

    Hi all,

    Some of you may have noticed that this section has recently been re-organised. Several forums have been renamed, relocated, or removed.

    Changes

    The Total War Eras: Technical Help forum has been renamed Rome: Total War Technical Help, and relocated to become a sub-forum of Rome: Total War General Discussion.

    Several new sub-forums have been created in Medieval/Shogun: Total War General Discussion:


    *Excluding several "Hosted Mods"; namely Pike and Musket, Medieval Total War - Redux and Medieval Total War - XL, which will remain as stickies in the General Discussion forum.

    Various thread prefixes have been created to allow for better organisation in Medieval/Shogun forum and sub-forums.

    It will take moderation some time to relocate threads to their various new, correct locations, so we thank you for your patience in this regard.

    Should you have any questions regarding these changes, please feel free to respond here. We understand that Rome, Medieval and Shogun are very old titles and not as popular as they once were, but we hope that this re-organisation will allow for continued enjoyment and hopefully future growth of the small communities which still love and play these games.

    Regards,
    Frunk
    Moderator
    FrunkSpace | Mod Announcements | Colonies & Empires

    Under the patronage of Iskar of the House of Siblesz. I'm proud patron of:

    atthias | PaulH | Athos187

  2. #2
    Axalon's Avatar She-Hulk wills it!
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Sverige
    Posts
    1,077

    Default Re: Total War: Eras section re-organisation

    Frunk, please pass along the following comments (below) to the folks/hex responsible for the new changes.
    =====================================================================


    I must object/complain/protest (whatever you want to call it) about the newly created
    disorder of the Medieval/Shogun TW-section. Especially in regards too...


    The deliberate dismantling of borders between Shogun & Medieval:
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Why?!? In short, it is counterproductive, irrational, unnatural, impractical and unserious. The TWC-administration in general has already clearly realized this – that for EVERY other TW-games in existence - as ALL others save MTW and STW are clearly kept apart at this point - and have been for well over a decade. That should apply to Medieval and Shogun as well... The gains of that should be self-explanatory.

    The notion to bunch up Shogun and Medieval into one section – is simply stupid and irrational - always has been since day 1. These are separate games, with separate traits - that circumstance keeps them apart because of the fact. ...While the old solution of a dedicated sub-fora for STW (within the section) was obviously bad – it was still better then what we got now – no borders at all. At least then, there was an attempt to maintain some kind of border between the two games. I rather have that old and poor solution then have things as they are now, due to the fact. Ironically it has now become worse, not better...

    The prefix-system is in this context are little else then some wishful thinking forced forward by a circumstance that is already impractical and irrational in the first place! It won’t work because it assumes and relies on that all people will consistently use it – which they won’t – and then the entire point of it is lost and falls apart - and we are left with a mess. It’s a stupid solution to a stupid circumstance that can easily be avoided if we do establish the borders again, via separate sections or sub-fora at a minimum.


    The multiplayer-subfora:
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Delete it… It is simply unwarranted and unrealistic to keep it… In so many words, there is no actual market for it (in both cases, MTW and STW). The last post made there - some 5 years old – is not even related to MP at all. There is no actual market to warrant a sub-fora dedicated for that aspect in either of the two games. Should MP somehow be discussed again some day - it can then use the regular/general area for each game until it grows enough demand to warrant a dedicated sub-section.

    Even STW as a game has a market (after all, the posts related to it does not generate themselves) but the same can not be said of MP – evidently. Due to the fact, it does then not warrant an entire dedicated sub-forum for Multiplayer in either case (MTW or STW). Delete the sub-fora and provide more room and exposition for the things that in contrast are actually in demand somehow…


    The strategies, guides and battle planning-sub-fora:
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Delete it… Merge or reconstruct the relevant threads/posts for MTW and then sticky that (obviously that assumes that this will be done by some who has a clue what the hell they are doing). And rename it to something more obvious and representative like “MTW faqs, guides & useful links”. It has not a strong enough market or activity to warrant a dedicated sub-forum for that stuff. The activity is not there for it. It is better compiled and accessible as a sticky in the general area. It seems like I must remind the responsible administration that sub-foras should be warranted and present practical and relevant categories – ultimately helping the users and members of this board to easily find stuff that they are interested in.


    Please sort the sub-fora rationally:
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    As it is, it makes little sense all over. Let us at least have some intuitive and rational order of the existing sub-foras in the section please! Like… STW first (in case it - regretfully - stays in the MTW-section, it would have much been better if it had its own section altogether)… Then released Mods-area… Then the Mod-workshop… Tech-help last… See image below…



    This is the way I think it should look, and it would make lot more sense, and be natural, and practical all over...


    - A

  3. #3
    Frunk's Avatar The Duke Will Return...
    Patrician Moderator Emeritus

    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    5,930

    Default Re: Total War: Eras section re-organisation

    Hi Axalon, thank you for the feedback.

    On Medieval & Shogun separation:

    When I made a proposal to the rest of Staff about this, I did suggest we could have a totally separate Shogun section set up in much the same way. We considered this and agreed that the interest in Shogun is minimal and that a separate section could not be justified. It was also decided that the orphaned Shogun: Total War sub-forum was unnecessary. It contained a total of 93 threads, and only 6 of these were active post-2012. I speculate that part of the reason for this is that the sub-forum is tucked away and not seen and the game not thought about. I believe that the new setup using [Medieval] and [Shogun] prefixes in the General Discussion forum is preferable. My hope and expectation is that with the fact that prefixes have been applied to all recent, applicable threads will put the thought about creating more threads in the back of people's minds.

    Members may not apply prefixes on their own, indeed, and that is where Staff/Moderation/I come in. As part of our day-to-day moderation activities, another moderator or I can and will easily apply prefixes to all threads. There are also only 23 pages total in the Medieval/Shogun General Discussion section, and believe me when I say I will personally go through and apply prefixes and relocate threads to the various sub-fora as necessary. Because I have too much time on my hands and am a perfectionist, this won't take me long.

    Personally, I fail to see why a "border" between the two titles is necessary, nor how removing it decreases organisation or diminishes the exposure of Shogun.

    On the Multiplayer sub-forum:

    Staff actually agreed to delete this forum, but as the one bringing forward the proposed changes I changed my mind at the last minute, instead opting to rename the dead "Field of B@ttle" forum to the more sensible title it has now, in keeping with a recent, smaller change applied to all other titles' which had their dedicated Multiplayer sub-forums restored from an "all Multiplayer" section that was created (but always omitted Medieval & Shogun). Indeed, there isn't much demand on TWC for non-Hotseat Multiplayer at all, and that forum can still easily be removed later on if its fortunes do not improve thanks to the rename and reorganisation. At least now, it is at least clearer what that forum is for.

    On Strategies, Guides & Battle Planning:

    I flatly disagree with the idea of creating a stickied index of Guides. Such threads exist/existed in other parts and proved useless. They end up being ugly walls of text which are hard to read, hard to navigate and do not allow any useful discussion to take place. I have just cleaned out the forum of left over threads from prior to the reorganisation, and as I continue to sorting of threads in the General Discussion forum mentioned above, I'm sure I will find more useful threads relating specifically to how to play the games (particularly since STW and MTW are different to newer titles) to put in there. Give it a chance, please.

    On the ordering of sub-forums:

    I agree that the ordering can be improved, and this is easy to change. I'll PM Hex about this now.
    FrunkSpace | Mod Announcements | Colonies & Empires

    Under the patronage of Iskar of the House of Siblesz. I'm proud patron of:

    atthias | PaulH | Athos187

  4. #4
    Leonardo's Avatar Reborn Old Timer
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Southern Sweden
    Posts
    3,718

    Default Re: Total War: Eras section re-organisation

    Quote Originally Posted by Frunk View Post
    Personally, I fail to see why a "border" between the two titles is necessary, nor how removing it decreases organisation or diminishes the exposure of Shogun.
    I have to agree with Axalon. I can see why a border is needed between STW and MTW, because both games are different and also the oldest Total War games.

    I don't know if anyone are still playing STW these days, but I still play MTW now and then.

    However, I need to ask one question. Does there exist any mods for STW? If no mods exist for STW then Axalon's suggestion about the forum structure, shown in the posted picture, make sense.
    Last edited by Leonardo; April 30, 2017 at 04:28 AM.
    Under patronage of General Brewster of the Imperial House of Hader.

  5. #5
    Daminios's Avatar Civis
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Hellas Down Under
    Posts
    129

    Default Re: Total War: Eras section re-organisation

    I agree with Axalon also .
    See it thru Frunk , it will eventually be to everyones benefit .
    cheers

  6. #6
    Frunk's Avatar The Duke Will Return...
    Patrician Moderator Emeritus

    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    5,930

    Default Re: Total War: Eras section re-organisation

    Quote Originally Posted by Leonardo View Post
    I have to agree with Axalon. I can see why a border is needed between STW and MTW, because both games are different and also the oldest Total War games.

    I don't know if anyone are still playing STW these days, but I still play MTW now and then.

    However, I need to ask one question. Does there exist any mods for STW? If no mods exist for STW then Axalon's suggestion about the forum structure, shown in the posted picture, make sense.
    Like I already said, Staff agreed that there is not enough activity and interest in Shogun for it to be in a separate section. Until that fact changes, I can't see how the thread prefix set up is problematic. It is quite obvious which threads apply to which game.

    Mods do exist for Shogun. See this thread.
    FrunkSpace | Mod Announcements | Colonies & Empires

    Under the patronage of Iskar of the House of Siblesz. I'm proud patron of:

    atthias | PaulH | Athos187

  7. #7
    Axalon's Avatar She-Hulk wills it!
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Sverige
    Posts
    1,077

    Default Re: Total War: Eras section re-organisation

    Hi all and thanks all over for the input (thus far)…

    First, I want to point out that I welcome Frunks general interest and commitment to this area (MTW/STW-section) of the TWC – if only more of his kind (moderators) would do the same. This place have been neglected, mistreated and ignored for far too long, and too often at that. That said…

    ***

    Quote Originally Posted by Frunk View Post
    ...When I made a proposal to the rest of Staff about this, I did suggest we could have a totally separate Shogun section set up in much the same way.
    I know you did… You should do so again, or possibly direct that staff to this thread.


    Quote Originally Posted by Frunk View Post
    We considered this and agreed that the interest in Shogun is minimal and that a separate section could not be justified. It was also decided that the orphaned Shogun: Total War sub-forum was unnecessary. It contained a total of 93 threads, and only 6 of these were active post-2012. I speculate that part of the reason for this is that the sub-forum is tucked away and not seen and the game not thought about. I believe that the new setup using [Medieval] and [Shogun] prefixes in the General Discussion forum is preferable. My hope and expectation is that with the fact that prefixes have been applied to all recent, applicable threads will put the thought about creating more threads in the back of people's minds.
    I’m sitting here wondering if that staff-assessment was actually done seriously and with a broad enough perspective while discussed. No one doubts that the activity levels are small for STW, and there is little doubt that the TWC has mistreated and ignored STW for a very long time too. Is anybody here actually surprised that the related activity-levels are small as a result? Apart from it being a very old TW-game..? While all this is true (I think), there is more to all this then just that.

    As a MTW-user/modder/player - I don’t want the MTW-section to share space with STW (and I am probably not the only one)– after all, it is an entirely different game! Why should it be there!?! There is no sensible reason for it. It’s essentially like bunching up football and rugby into the same section, because it’s supposedly convenient for the administration to do so - it’s ridiculous and irrational. It goes the other way around too - as a STW-user, I don’t want to share space with MTW – that is a different game! If I am looking for STW-stuff then I don’t want to go thru loads of “MTW-junk” – this for self-explanatory reasons.

    This site has in all other cases understood this, and acted on that – in every other instance of TW-games - save MTW and STW. As soon as it comes to these two games, the staff is repeatedly unwilling to treat them like the others or with some dignity – constantly excusing themselves with “it’s too small, it’s too little activity”... Let us call it for what it is – discrimination.

    Index space is actually free… It is not somehow connected to any of the cost of maintaining the site (as I understand it). If true, STW needs a 1 new slot in the Eras-section on the index (translates to 15 mm). If that much is granted, then many problems here for both STW and MTW simply disappears, and that for the moderation-branch too. The prefix system will obviously then become irrelevant and all the problems related to it (short- and long-term) will also vanish. The fact is that every other TW-game is granted at least 4 slots individually on the index (translates to roughly 66mm on the index). What I am asking for is that STW is to be granted 1 slot (15mm) on the index, to have its own place as to FINALLY separate these two games (STW and MTW) once and for all – as should have been done already from day 1.

    STW is a full TW-game! People still play it! It’s the very first and original TW-game! It is the very beginning of actual TW-history! The origin of it all… Where are all the history-nerds at when it comes to TW itself? Should that not be afforded on a site actually dedicated to dealing with TW-games? Instead of discriminating STW, it should be in the TWC interest to actually grant this game its own spot within the Eras section. Besides, if the traffic levels are low, it also ultimately means it will also cause little or nominal problems, and that maintenance for it will be minimal. In fact it will hardly be any problems for the site at all, instead it will actually help it - freeing up the MTW-area, make more sense in the TW-coverage in general and make both STW- and MTW-people happier and feel more welcome to this site at large. It brings no extra cost or effort on the administration (minimal at least). And, the symbolical value of having it included on the site visibly - on its own, and on the index - is not without importance.


    ***

    As for the “too few posts, and too little activity”-excuse, it's the same ‘ol standard-excuse that TWC-staff has been using for years as to evade doing anything for STW (and MTW too). There are clearly lots more factors to consider then just that - and - if we do look at these things soberly and closely… That excuse is pretty thin in reality… After all, there are plenty of things that have obviously been granted space and slots on the main index that STW - as a full TW-game - could easily be on par with in terms of both views, posts and activity - that is, if actually given a chance to have it own place. The main problem here seems to be that the TWC-staff so far don’t actually want to give it (STW) that chance, because keeping the index 15 mm shorter is supposedly more important then that (or some such BS)... And, MTW as a game, and its micro-community, is made to pay for that - as it is then forced to share the same space with STW - while all other TW-games are exempted from such a treatment (by the staff). Index-slots like “The TWC Member awards” or “The TWC Modding awards” hardly generate more posts or traffic, then STW could or have… Neither does the entire “Supporting the TWC”-section... And certainly not the “TWC-cemetery” slot, which does not generate any traffic or posts, at all – it’s a mere dumping-ground for discarded threads deemed unfit for the board’s altogether.

    Now, if such things can be afforded here then the site and index can surely afford separate STW and MTW-slots in the Eras block – since EVERY other TW-game can evidently be afforded 4 slots individually. I do find it utterly ridiculous that this site – a supposed TW-site - could NOT somehow afford even 1 measly slot for a full and bonafide TW-game – that utterly regardless of its age – and all because it would have supposedly “too few posts, and to little activity” to warrant it. The TWC is a TW-site last time I checked. And as such, it is supposed to cover TW-games. STW is a TW-game. So cover it - and seriously and properly for a change (and that obviously goes for MTW too)... It will generate enough traffic to warrant its place here - at least as much as all those other examples (mentioned above).


    Quote Originally Posted by Frunk View Post
    Personally, I fail to see why a "border" between the two titles is necessary, nor how removing it decreases organisation or diminishes the exposure of Shogun.
    This statement makes me wonder if you have actually played both MTW and STW.

    If “yes (I have played both)” – then by all means explain to me and others how these two games are NOT different from each other - as to outline why no distinction between the two is called for, or that this would somehow be more reasonable and natural… If “no (I have not played them both)” – then you are hardly qualified to make that assessment in the first place, and you know it. That goes for any of the involved TWC-staff too – as you/they have then no rational means or grounds to reach a conclusion on the matter - sensibly, that is. With that kind of logic the existing border between Napoleon-TW and Rome2 would also supposedly be unnecessary too, I imagine….


    Quote Originally Posted by Frunk View Post
    Indeed, there isn't much demand on TWC for non-Hotseat Multiplayer at all, and that forum can still easily be removed later on if its fortunes do not improve thanks to the rename and reorganisation. At least now, it is at least clearer what that forum is for.
    First of all the name-change certainly is better, it makes a lot more sense, but… Too little, too late? This ship has already sailed, my friend. Its dead, and having a dedicated sub-fora for a bunch of totally dead-MP threads is not rational or needed. In the event that a bunch of bustling MP-threads suddenly pop up, and crowd this/relevant section - by all means create this sub-fora again (with this new name) - but we are not there yet, and simply changing the name will not get us there either. Remove it and give more gravitas to the others (sub-fora), they need it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Frunk View Post
    ...Such threads exist/existed in other parts and proved useless. They end up being ugly walls of text which are hard to read, hard to navigate and do not allow any useful discussion to take place. I have just cleaned out the forum of left over threads from prior to the reorganisation, and as I continue to sorting of threads in the General Discussion forum mentioned above, I'm sure I will find more useful threads relating specifically to how to play the games (particularly since STW and MTW are different to newer titles) to put in there. Give it a chance, please.
    Alright… You do have valid points here, but please rename it to something more obvious like “Player guides, hints and tips” or the like. Its less confusing, shorter and more intuitive - which is typically a good thing. Other then that, the current (new) location on that stuff is much better then before….


    Quote Originally Posted by Frunk View Post
    Mods do exist for Shogun. See this thread.
    I think this is an overly generous and optimistic take on it. Technically, yes… There are work done for STW, but all of it are small-time stuff with little exception as STW is highly unfriendly to modding at large (possibly one of the worst in TW) - because of the fact, nothing major has ever been released in public to this day. Its more a matter of tweaking things or changing files back and forth - as in contrast to seriously altering, shaping, creating things/elements as can be (and have been) done in MTW1, RTW or MTW2 for instance. Again, there are no major stuff created for STW to this day, if there had been, I would have heard something about it by now…


    Alright, sorry for the long post...

    - A

  8. #8
    Frunk's Avatar The Duke Will Return...
    Patrician Moderator Emeritus

    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    5,930

    Default Re: Total War: Eras section re-organisation

    Following on from the discussion here, this section has again been re-organised.

    It's past my bedtime, so I'll get to relocating threads appropriately in the morning (it won't take long). Forum names and descriptions will also be fixed shortly.

    Staff thanks you all for your patience, understanding and feedback in this matter.
    FrunkSpace | Mod Announcements | Colonies & Empires

    Under the patronage of Iskar of the House of Siblesz. I'm proud patron of:

    atthias | PaulH | Athos187

  9. #9
    Frunk's Avatar The Duke Will Return...
    Patrician Moderator Emeritus

    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    5,930

    Default Re: Total War: Eras section re-organisation

    Hi all,

    It's great to see both Shogun and Medieval have been arguably more active and awesome over the past year since the changes. Thanks to all who were involved in the feedback process, on behalf of staff.

    A small update in terms of "Hosted Mods" in the Medieval section. "Hosted Mods" in this sense meaning that the mod thread is stickied in the main MTW section, as opposed to the Modifications sub-forum. I/staff believe that this privilege should be based on the following criteria:


    1. Minimum 15,000 thread views
    2. Still supported/updated by mod creator within the past 2 years


    Truth be told, this is somewhat to reward two mods, and their creators. Redux is likely the most well-supported mod in MTW history, with Axalon having worked tirelessly for a decade to keep the mod up-to-date, supported, and fun. Meanwhile, A Game of Thrones is a fantastic new mod which is helping keep MTW alive after such a long time, and Macsen Rufus deserves a lot of credit for this. Relocating his mod to the main MTW section alongside Redux is more than appropriate, in my opinion.

    Obviously, the great and timeless works XL and Pike & Musket are not currently being actively supported (on TWC, at least), and therefore they've been moved to the Modifications sub-forum for now. This takes nothing away from either mod, or from VikingHorde or cegorach; it's simply the fairest way to do things, and hopefully we see more from these mods in the future, though they have already brought us great joy and we are very lucky and grateful for that.

    Feedback on this relatively small change is welcome.

    Here's to MTW and its future!

    Regards,

    Frunk
    FrunkSpace | Mod Announcements | Colonies & Empires

    Under the patronage of Iskar of the House of Siblesz. I'm proud patron of:

    atthias | PaulH | Athos187

  10. #10
    Axalon's Avatar She-Hulk wills it!
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Sverige
    Posts
    1,077

    Default Re: Total War: Eras section re-organisation

    Well, some input for you...

    I have no objections here, by large I think its a good and rational change made. I generally agree with the rationale. The truly important part after a release is the support (and maintenance) of a mod, and as long as a mod continues to be (seriously) supported somehow, it is (very) motivated to grant it/that work special favours and privileges on any TW-site, considering its overall value and impotence for such a site that any such content generates, including the relevant raw game at large. This in comparison to any mods/works whom are not supported (or possibly abandoned, either by it creators or some later substitutes/replacements) - this regardless of previous successes and supposed stature. That's my take on it.

    I would argue that it is unreasonable to still grant unsupported/abandoned works the same advantages and privileges as any works that are supported and/or updated (at least, as long as any of such advantages and privileges can only be afforded to limited extents on this site). Another element is the scope/or extensiveness of a mod/work which is another factor to consider in the future. As it stands, it is rather irrelevant here for the moment (as both are extensive/major works), but it might change further down the road (depending on future mod-releases, obviously). One never knows... After all, it is no secret that small, mini or even medium sized-mods does not generate the same gravitas, longevity and importance as major works typically do for MTW, and as a result they can hardly be expected to be treated as equals. This for self-explanatory reasons. Should such an instance ever arise.

    As for criterion 1 - 15.000 views should be enough (although it strikes me as a bit low). As for criterion 2 - I think you can probably cut it down to 1 full year.

    - A
    Last edited by Axalon; July 22, 2018 at 02:21 PM. Reason: changes...

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •