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  1. #1
    Dirty Chai's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default 2.3: New Battle Rules Proposal

    Hey all, here's a major set of proposed reforms. They're a heavily revamped version of the GoT battle system which allows for more freedom and tactics hopefully. Poach contacted Gandalf, Lucius Malfoy, and I with this new update proposal a while back and Gandalf and I thought it would be a good idea (yes, we hated the original GoT system by the end of that) to have a system again that properly weighs varied unit types against each either, preferably via point values. We also feel content that the changes Poach has made to the system, which seem quite extensive, will solve the issues we had with the original system.

    In Poach's own words..
    Quote Originally Posted by Poach
    Gents,

    The following PM will contain the actual idea. Basically I set about trying to think up something new that will do two main things: firstly, make large battles a more interactive affair where everyone can get involved, and secondly to find an answer to the ridiculous traffic jam of battles we've tended to end up seeing in games like GoT. The battle system PM will be written for GoT's unit types, because I understand GoT's unit types, but that is easily altered to fit other games. I'd have given you the draft with WOTR units, being that WOTR is the current game for the foreseeable few restarts at least, but I don't know anything about them, unfortunately.

    I think the main pros and cons are:

    Pros

    - Battles aren't just for the overall commander any more. Every player character (that gets a Battalion at least) gets to operate independently and can do whatever they want to do. Sure their commanders can give suggestions, but ultimate authority now rests with the individual players. If you're not too keen on actually fighting the war, or feel your orders are a bit suicidal or stupid, you get a choice now.

    - A battle done in phases means bad starting strategies aren't immediate doom. You'll see your car crash unfolding, maybe you can recover it, or you can ensure you hold onto enough decent terrain to mean you finish the day not routed from the field.

    - Lifting the upper limit on Army sizes (which was put in place to give more people stuff to do in wars, which the Battalion and Phases system now allows) will stop situations like the dogpile of queued up battles around King's Landing in the last GoT game. We can just lump those vast armies into two opposing armies, roll a battle of 5 phases over a huge map with lots of terrain, and let everyone have a mini-RTS game right there.

    Cons

    - We'd need to be really strict with people submitting orders in a timely fashion. Having to wait a couple of days per phase would be crippling for the game's chronology, and we've all known battles that get delayed for days at a time because someone we need orders from isn't logging on.

    The following PM will contain the new idea.

    Regards,

    Poach
    I've taken the liberty of coming up with a translation of our current soldier types over into this new proposed system; they are listed below. Though untested, Poach and Gandalf had no concerns, so if there's a problem with them, it's latent and will appear in practice. And yes, no more knights. That was a terrible system in practice and I'm sorry for making you all use it. I might come up with a "bodyguard/retainer" system to replace it though (which would also simultaneously replace equipment with bonuses and what not).

    Battles
    Soldier Types
    Militia Footman - 1 point
    • Peasants and burghers, armed with spears and billhooks, protected by padded armour or leather at best. Though they lack the protection and staying power of heavier infantry, they are highly mobile and flexible.
    • +5 in Rough, Marshy, Hilly, and Wooded Terrain.

    Yeoman Footman - 2 points

    • Armed with billhooks, voulges, axes, and hammers, these troops operate in tightly grouped formations to present a prickly wall of sharp spears to both cavalry and infantry alike. They are moderately trained and decently armored and serve as the bulk of the armored infantry raised from the land by the king in times of war.
    • +10 against Cavalry if in a stationary formation. -2 in Rough and Wooded Terrain.

    Dismounted Man-At-Arms - 3 points

    • To dismount Men-At-Arms, declare so in battle orders.
    • Men-at-arms come from the lowest scores of the landed elite and from those who sell their military skill to lords as retainers and private soldiers, while some may be legally knights. They are the best armed, armoured, and trained warriors on the battlefield. Like other heavy infantry they are relatively slow and easily exhausted, but will prove a solid force in any stand-up fight.
    • +10 against Cavalry if in a stationary formation.
    • -5 after 2 Battle Rounds in action.

    Mounted Man-At-Arms - 2 points

    • Men-At-Arms are mounted by default.
    • Men-at-arms come from the lowest scores of the landed elite and from those who sell their military skill to lords as retainers and private soldiers, while some may be legally knights. They are the heaviest cavalry available, excepting true knights and lords bedecked in the finest plate, but have worked best as infantrymen since the wars of Edward I.
    • +10 if coherently charging across open ground (a coherent charge requires the Cavalry to have been unengaged in the previous Battle Round). -10 in Rough, Marshy, Hilly, and Wooded Terrain.
    • -5 after 2 Battle Rounds in action. Cannot charge in Rough or Marshy Terrain, can only charge out of Wooded Terrain.

    Militia Archer - 1 point

    • These are the regular huntsmen and sportsmen of England, but thrown into battle straight from the village hedge via a call to arms.
    • -10 if firing into Wooded Terrain.

    Yeoman Archer - 1.5 points

    • These longbowmen are the regular and most numerous foot soldiers of the late medieval English military, and most engagements in the Hundred Years War were fought with these well-trained, well-equipped, ranged killers.
    • +10 if clean line of sight to massed target formation
    • -5 if firing into Wooded Terrain.

    Mounted Archer - 1 point

    • These are selectively chosen longbowmen taken into the retinue of a lord, or otherwise have found and acquired horses. They are intended to combine the mobility of mounted warfare with the power of the longbow.
    • Halve all casualties caused on these men in a rout or retreat
    • Halve all casualties caused on these men from archer fire
    • +10 if clean line of sight to massed target formation
    • -5 if firing into Wooded Terrain.
    • Can move across 2 Flanks, or move across 1 and fight in it, per Battle Round.
    • -5 in Rough, Marshy, Hilly, and Wooded Terrain.
    • +2 to raid rolls

    Hobelars - 1 point

    • Often employed as scouts, raiders, or in harassing roles, hobelars ride largely unarmoured horses and are protected themselves by chainmail at best. This lack of weight makes them by far the most mobile force on the battlefield.
    • Can move across 2 Flanks, or move across 1 and fight in it, per Battle Round.
    • -5 in Rough, Marshy, Hilly, and Wooded Terrain.
    • +4 to raid rolls

    The Battlefield
    The battlefield is divided into 3 Flanks: Right, Centre, and Left. Forces will begin the battle arrayed in one of these three Flanks, but can move throughout the battlefield over the course of the battle.
    The Battlefield may have different terrain types covering some or part. For example, a battle in a valley is likely to have Rough Terrain on one or both Flanks, a battle near or within a forest may have Wooded Terrain in some or all areas. For complex battlefield, a basic map may be posted.

    Units will perform drastically differently depending on terrain. Cavalry, for example, will operate very poorly in Rough or Marshy Terrain, while Light Infantry will excel in these areas. In addition, heavy units (Heavy Infantry, Heavy and Elite Cavalry) will quickly tire and, as such, must be used to maximum effect in decisive strikes.
    Fighting the Battle
    Fighting a Battle

    Armies will be divided into Battalions, commanded by a Character. This Character may be player-controlled or NPC. Characters with Traits that give them bonuses commanding certain troop types only gain their bonuses if their Battalion is all or mostly (90%+) of that unit type.

    These Battalions will be posted to a specific Flank to start the battle, and given orders by the Army or Flank commander, or both. It is up to players whose orders, if any, they follow. It is up to players whose orders NPC characters sworn to them follow (eg a Reach Lord will do what a Tyrell tells him to do, regardless of whether the Tyrell is the appointed Flank or Army commander). If no orders can be sources(eg the Army, Flank, and Battalion commander all fail to suggest a movement in a reasonable amount of time) then the moderator will decide a reasonable course of action, which may be to remain stationary.

    A Battle will last for a maximum of 5 Battle Phases. How many Flanks and Battle Phases are used will be decided by the controlling Moderator, depending on how important the battle is, how large the armies fighting are, how many players are participating, and whether the wider game is lagging behind real time or not.

    In each Battle Phase, the players controlling Battalions will decide their next move and tell the moderator, who will take each Battalion's moves and decide what the outcome will be (eg if an infantry battalion is trying to charge into the enemy archers, but enemy light cavalry has been told to attack the infantry, it is most likely that the cavalry will intercept the infantry). After each Battle Phase, the moderator will decide whether troops engaged in combat will break and run, or continue to fight. Casualties suffered, the weight of numbers pressing against them, the quality of the troops, and the skills of their commander will all be considered. Levied light infantry is far more likely to break and run if the odds are stacked against them, while a Lord's personal bodyguard will almost always fight to the death to preserve their liege's life.

    Casualties per Battle Phase are limited to 10%. In small battles where there are only one or two phases, the standard cap of 25% will be used.

    Assigning more than 1 Battalion to the same task may result in penalties as coordinating multiple independent units in the chaos of a Medieval battlefield is inefficient. This will depend on the task, the units being used, and how they might interact in attempting to complete the task. For example, assinging both Archers and Infantry to attack enemy Infantry may result in some of your own soldiers being hit by the arrowfire, but assigning several Battalions of Infantry to attack the same enemy unit is unlikely to cause detrimental clashes. Heavy Cavalry, if charging into the rear of already-engaged enemy units, may run through them and into your own forces, causing casualties. So on.

    Concluding a Battle

    At the end of the battle, when the last Battle Phase is concluded, a winner will be declared if both armies are still on the field fighting. It may be declared an inconclusive draw if both armies control significant parts of the battlefield and are not being threatened with a rout or with becoming surrounded and cut off from retreat. In this case, the end of the battle comes with nightfall and both forces break off and retreat to their camps, and may either electively withdraw in good order or resume with a new battle the following day. Night raids may be considered, depending on whether there are any troops fresh enough to mount one.

    If the battle reaches a point where one army is clearly overwhelmed or broken apart, the Moderator will halt the battle and declare one army the winner. The losing army will then retreat, either in a rout (causing casualties) or in good order, depending on whether the victor is able and willing to pursue. As such a hard-fought battle may not result in the defeated force being routed, as the victorious enemy may have fully committed to the battle itself and his Cavalry may be exhausted and disorganized.

    Whether a rout occurs will depend on the victor's Cavalry: Men-at-Arms with the -5 malus for exhaustion will not chase down routing troops. Hobelars and Mounted Archers bogged down in any type of non-Open Terrain will not chase down routing troops. d20*[Pursuing Cavalry] casualties will be inflicted in a rout, capped at 50% of the routing troops.
    Post-Battle Condition Rolls
    Post-Battle Initial Condition table, not modified by +Survival.

    1-2 - Dead.
    3-7 - Wounded. Roll the Wounded table.
    8-12 - Captured.
    13-20 - Free and unharmed.

    If the character is Captured, but is on the winning side of the battle, roll d20 where 6+ liberates the character.

    Wounds table, modified by +Survival.

    Natural 1 - Permanent Wound, do not modify with +Survival. Roll the Disability table.
    2-5 - Permanent Wound. Roll the Disability table.
    6-10 - Major Wound. (Mod pick: coma or bedridden for 2 RL days)
    11-15 Serious Wound (Mod pick: -3 to Duel, Survival, or all Battle Traits, for 2 RL days)
    16-20 Minor Wound (Mod pick: -1 to Duel or Survival, for 2 RL days)

    Disability table, not modified by +Survival. Trait points made redundant by rolls here are not refunded.

    1-5 Disfigured. -10 Charisma. Character's face is badly maimed (on a level similar to Sandor Clegane's), making them unsightly.
    6-10 Crippled (Arm). Cannot Duel, -10 Survival if participating in a Battle. One of the character's arms is rendered useless, rendering them unable to effectively defend themselves.
    11-15 Crippled (Leg). Cannot Duel, can still Joust. Cannot command Infantry, only Cavalry.
    16-20 Old War Wound. Begin death rolls every year henceforth. Starting at 2/20, with +2 every 5 years. If the character is already of age for death rolls, +2 henceforth.
    Battle Traits

    The old +Battles trait is abolished. New traits:

    - Infantry Commander (+rolls when commanding Infantry Battalions)
    - Cavalry Commander (+rolls when commanding Cavalry Battalions)
    - Archer Commander (+rolls when commanding Archer Battalions)
    - Joust will continue to provide +rolls to the initial cavalry charge.
    Army Limits
    As part of this new ruleset, the upper limit for the largest Army size will be removed, allowing forces to move as an army of any size, but with the appropriate penalties continuing to apply.


    --------------------------

    I've not posted a vote yet because I've not ever even talked with anyone about this except Gandalf and Poach, so we'll just put this out for public conversation now (probably mostly on Discord..)
    Last edited by Dirty Chai; April 21, 2017 at 06:49 PM.

  2. #2
    Poach's Avatar Civitate
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    Default Re: 2.3: New Battle Rules Proposal

    Below is an FAQ based on the questions the mods asked me when I introduced the idea to them:
    FAQ

    Q. So are battalions now flanks?
    A. No, flanks are now filled up by battalions. Instead of just saying "I put 2,000 infantry on the left, 5,000 in the centre and 1,000 on the right" you're now dividing up your army into battalions, and putting the battalions on each flank. So you might decide to divide your 8,000 infantry into 4 equal battalions, and put 1 on the left and right and 2 in the middle, or you might opt for 1 battalion of 5,000, 1 of 2,000 and 1 of 1,000. You can do whatever you want.

    Q. Who decides the battalions? The army commander?
    A. Battalions can generally be proposed by the army commander but their final composition can only be agreed by the men commanding the troops. To take a GoT example, Lord Lannister can't assign all the Tarbeck cavalry to a larger battalion of other cavalry if Lord Tarbeck doesn't agree: the Tarbeck cavalry will do what Lord Tarbeck says at the end of the day. Thus, if individual players want to keep command of their own troops, they can, providing they're willing to suffer any consequences that come from making demands of their liege lord or possibly outright refusing to be lumped into other battalions.

    Q. How do I give orders now, then?
    A. You order each battalion to do stuff. Players controlling the battalions can then follow your orders or opt to do their own thing. You'll be given a general description of the battlefield, including terrain and prominent features, and will issue orders on movements and engagements. Each new phase will come with an update on how the previous phase went and what the battlefield looks like now.

    Q. My liege lord, in RP, has ordered me into a bigger battalion. He's even went and submitted orders that assume I've backed down. I don't want my troops to be in that battalion, what are my options here?
    A. Either suck it up or disobey him. PM the mod in charge of the battle and say that even though you're supposed to be part of this other battalion, you're going to take your troops and do your own thing. The mod will then make you your own battalion, and you can deal with your liege's ire post-battle.

    Q. Who decides what my battalion does? I don't like what I've been told to do.
    A. In each battle phase, the army commander must PM the moderator, and all his battalion commanders, with the orders they want carried out. In RP terms this represents messengers/runners appearing beside your characters saying "I've come from Lord So-and-so, he orders you to do this!". You don't have to follow that order. Once the army commander has PM'd his orders, battalion commanders then must PM the mod with their own orders if they intend to do something different. If you don't PM the mod, the mod will assume you're following the orders the army commander sent to you.

    Q. If there are disagreements, who will NPC battalions follow?
    A. Their liege Lord. Again to borrow from GoT, if there's a Westerlands army commander but a bunch of his troops are Reach troops, the Reach troops will follow Tyrell orders even if a Westerlands character is in charge of the army overall. If the Reach contingent lacks a Tyrell, then they either follow whoever was in charge of the Reach contingent (meaning it's important that people designate proper hierarchies!) or, if the Reach troops arrived without an overall sub-commander from the Reach, the NPC battalions will follow the army commander's orders. As with the above question, the Westerlands army commander player will PM the mod and all his sub-commanders his orders, and the Tyrell player can then PM disagreeing orders. If he doesn't, it's assumed the Reach troops follow the army commander orders.

  3. #3

    Default Re: 2.3: New Battle Rules Proposal

    You already know I'm fine with this, and apparently everyone else seems to be but...

  4. #4
    Dirty Chai's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: 2.3: New Battle Rules Proposal

    But what?

  5. #5

    Default Re: 2.3: New Battle Rules Proposal

    But there's been no feedback


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  6. #6
    Dirty Chai's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: 2.3: New Battle Rules Proposal

    Yeah IDK

  7. #7
    The Mad Skylord's Avatar Tribunus
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    Default Re: 2.3: New Battle Rules Proposal

    I like it, only thing I'm unsure of is the traits. If you have archers and infantry in a battalion - and have points in Infantry and Archer command - both traits should apply to the battalion. You don't suddenly get less competent if you have a mixed force

  8. #8

    Default Re: 2.3: New Battle Rules Proposal

    I feel like battles will take too long with this system and could result in a situation similar to Towton in WotR 1.0, where a major battle could take so long it almost kills the game. Not to mention arguments over orders, who is where, and other issues hampering the process as well.

  9. #9
    Poach's Avatar Civitate
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    Default Re: 2.3: New Battle Rules Proposal

    Sky: It's primarily to make rolling the battles workable. There's nothing stopping multiple battalions moving around together, the traits are meant to encourage battalions that aren't a hodge-podge of half a dozen different unit types, because that would make every fight for that battalion complex to roll.

    Xion: The full 5 phases would be a fairly rare thing, with most run of the mill battles using only 1 or 2, for example. The system also doesn't allow for arguments over orders: the player controlling the battalion has the final word, there's no way to overrule them. The full 5 phase fight would be reserved for things like the KL campaign in the last GoT game, where we ended up just rolling 3 or 4 battles one after the other because everyone just gathered up at KL and formed a queue to fight. Fighting 1 large 5-phase battle wouldn't take any longer than it took to fight those individual battles back to back.

  10. #10
    Dirty Chai's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: 2.3: New Battle Rules Proposal

    Concerns alleviated at all? Xion? Sky?

  11. #11
    The Mad Skylord's Avatar Tribunus
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    Default Re: 2.3: New Battle Rules Proposal

    Can chars have battle traits in separate categories? If so, I'm happy.

  12. #12
    Dirty Chai's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: 2.3: New Battle Rules Proposal

    Hmm, my suggestion for that is if you have two different (or more) types of troops in a battalion, but you also traits in more than one type present there...

    So let's say you have 50% archers, 50% infantry; but you also have +2 Infantry commander and +2 archer commander. In that instance I guess you get a full +2.

    But, if you had +2 infantry and +1 archery, then it would be the lowest trait modifier. The presence of any kind of troop that you don't have a trait for completely negates a trait as normal.

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