ECHR: Russia failed during the Beslan Siege

[Nikitn]

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-39586814

The russophobia has reached a new low. So apparently it was Russia's fault that war-hardened islamist scumbags armed to the teeth lined the school, and themselves, with explosives and declared the only way they would leave was if Russia withdrew from Chechnya. And what "failed to act on advanced intelligence"? What "advanced intelligence"? I wonder, did the USAF have "advanced intelligence" on the 70 Syrian soldiers they murdered in their Deir-ezor "friendly fire" incident, or the 200 civilians they recently killed in the Mosul air raid a few weeks ago?

This siege is a tragic horror, and yet it's being used as a political weapon by whoever is behind this ruling. It's truly disgusting to put this into the spotlight and make the victims relive this horror.

[L'Ost]

Realtime revisionism in both USA and Russia (and UK) these days doesn't help.
What can I say, I don't know for other EU's countries, but 80% of frenches laugh at both of you. Because your both big though guy governements really think people are really really dumb.

- terrorists had bombs and used them
- anti-terrorist forces shot anything in sight like cowboys. Don't forget people were gazed there.

Nothing is black or white there.

[Prodromos]

Realtime revisionism in both USA and Russia (and UK) these days doesn't help.
What can I say, I don't know for other EU's countries, but 80% of frenches laugh at both of you. Because your both big though guy governements really think people are really really dumb.

- terrorists had bombs and used them
- anti-terrorist forces shot anything in sight like cowboys. Don't forget people were gazed there.

Nothing is black or white there.

Both Putin and terrorists are scum. The only innocents are the civilians. Seems pretty black and white to me.

[Adar]

The thread should be renamed as it does not reflect the ECHR court ruling at all.

The European Court of Human Rights has ruled that Russia failed to protect the hostages of the Beslan school siege in which about 330 people died in 2004.
It also said that officials knew an attack was imminent but did not act. In the siege, Chechen rebels took more than 1,000 hostages, mostly children.
It ended when Russian forces stormed the building, an operation with "serious flaws", the court added.
Russia said the ruling was "utterly unacceptable" and that it would appeal.
Survivors have said that the troops used excessive force during the operation to retake the school.
No Russian official has been held responsible for the high number of deaths, which included 186 children.

The Chechens are to blame for the terrorist attacks. The Russian government is however according to the ECHR guilty of failing to protect civilians both by negligence and using excessive force. I do not think anyone can claim that the Beslan siege was less than an utter and complete embarrassment for the Russian federation as they failed in pretty much every way conceivable during the crisis and has been used as a warning example in disaster preparedness for the last decade by pretty much every other military/law enforcement organization.

[Alastor]

I suppose its a good thing 911 didn't happen in Russia. Or Bin Laden would have been rehabilitated and the whole thing blamed on Putin by now.

Sometimes I really wonder, does the US/EU really need to antagonize Russia on basically everything... like really, really?

[Telamon]

It's a bit of a weird time to publish this ruling but looking at it objectively, it doesn't blame Russia for the siege, it blames Russia for not protecting the hostages. Which seems disturbingly common for Russian counter-terrorist operations, in that theatre siege they gassed the entire place. I guess as long as they get the bad guys it's all good.

Sometimes I really wonder, does the US/EU really need to antagonize Russia on basically everything... like really, really?

I know right, damn the US/EU for forcing Russia to invade Ukraine.

[Nikitn]

In this situation it's very easy to sit back and critique and blame "incompetent, violent Russians" like yet another brainless drone, instead of actually looking rationally at the situation and understanding that nobody has faced these kind of brutal terrorist hostage situations before. Of course Beslan wasn't handled perfectly, but making such a provocative ruling is disgusting.

Also, keep in mind that the kind of people the security forces were dealing with are the kind who would rather blow themselves up than surrender.

[Hmmm]

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-39586814

The russophobia has reached a new low. So apparently it was Russia's fault that war-hardened islamist scumbags armed to the teeth lined the school, and themselves, with explosives and declared the only way they would leave was if Russia withdrew from Chechnya. And what "failed to act on advanced intelligence"? What "advanced intelligence"? I wonder, did the USAF have "advanced intelligence" on the 70 Syrian soldiers they murdered in their Deir-ezor "friendly fire" incident, or the 200 civilians they recently killed in the Mosul air raid a few weeks ago?

This siege is a tragic horror, and yet it's being used as a political weapon by whoever is behind this ruling. It's truly disgusting to put this into the spotlight and make the victims relive this horror.

1. The US isn't part of the Convention, so irrelevant.

2. Nobody is blaming the terrorist attacks on Russia here. As Adar pointed out, the ECHR is criticising Russia's handling of the situation. What the Court concluded is that Russia failed in its obligation to protect Russian citizens. If you can't see how Beslan was a disaster from basically every perspective, there's no reasoning with you.

To my knowledge your braindead SOF (Vympel and Alpha teams) fired thermobaric launchers into the school and T-72s fired their 125 mm guns with anti-personell rounds. They may as well have dropped a bomb on it as their way of "solving" the crisis, and you have the audacity to pretend like there was nothing wrong with the Russian reaction?

I suppose its a good thing 911 didn't happen in Russia. Or Bin Laden would have been rehabilitated and the whole thing blamed on Putin by now.

Sometimes I really wonder, does the US/EU really need to antagonize Russia on basically everything... like really, really?

How is this in any way the US/EU antagonizing Russia?

[Gäiten]

It is the Russian state`s way to deal with terrorists.
The citizen must be ready to get killed for the welfare of the state and others.

[Nikitn]

1. The US isn't part of the Convention, so irrelevant.

2. Nobody is blaming the terrorist attacks on Russia here. As Adar pointed out, the ECHR is criticising Russia's handling of the situation. What the Court concluded is that Russia failed in its obligation to protect Russian citizens. If you can't see how Beslan was a disaster from basically every perspective, there's no reasoning with you.

To my knowledge your braindead SOF (Vympel and Alpha teams) fired thermobaric launchers into the school and T-72s fired their 125 mm guns with anti-personell rounds. They may as well have dropped a bomb on it as their way of "solving" the crisis, and you have the audacity to pretend like there was nothing wrong with the Russian reaction?

How is this in any way the US/EU antagonizing Russia?

The ECHR ruling is complete garbage regardless.

Yes, it would be smarter to let the terrorists continue gunning down the hostages than to quickly kill them with anti personell shells.
Obviously it wasn't handled well, but as previously said, it's very easy to sit in your armchair and criticise with hindsight.

[caratacus]

There does seem to be a lack of expertise in handling incidents like this in Russia which could be described as a heavy handed clumsy approach taken. Anyone remember the Moscow theater siege by Chechens, in which 130 hostages died during the raid. All but two of the hostages who died during the siege were killed by the toxic substance pumped into the theater to subdue the militants. The gas is still not known, but it surely was tested for this type of incident. But back then American and British governments deemed Russia's actions justifiable and nothing was mentioned by this court of human rights.

Its difficult when hostages are taken by these extremist militant Islamic groups, they really aren't open to negotiation and are only using the hostages to publicise their cause before their execution. Faced with such a situation and a risk to the security personnel themselves in mounting any rescue. The use of overwhelming force maybe the only way to prevent similar sieges happening in the future.

As for saying that Russian authorities were aware of the possibility of a siege and could of prevented it. That really is like saying that people aided and abetted the terrorists, which seems to me grossly unfair given the limited access to intelligence information by the court. It is like saying that the German authorities should have prevented that bombing of the Dortmund football club coach because they knew that terrorist posed a threat in Germany. Hindsight is any easy thing from a historical perspective and won't help the relatives of the victims in coming to terms with their loss, by someone saying it could all have been avoided. For that you really have to go back and view what happened in Chechnya in the 1990's.

This decision hasn't really been well timed has it, especially given the disagreement between the US and Russia on dealing with Syria, a country which is a breeding ground for terrorism.

[Hmmm]

The ECHR ruling is complete garbage regardless.

So is the title of this thread.

Yes, it would be smarter to let the terrorists continue gunning down the hostages than to quickly kill them with anti personell shells.

Implying the only options are to let the terrorists gun down children or bomb the school with tanks and thermobaric launchers. Nice one.

Obviously it wasn't handled well, but as previously said, it's very easy to sit in your armchair and criticise with hindsight.

It does not take hindsight to realize it's a bad idea to fire at a school with heavy weapons, while the hostages (children) you are supposed to save are still there. Hence my analogy to dropping a bomb.

[Nikitn]

Implying the only options are to let the terrorists gun down children or bomb the school with tanks and thermobaric launchers. Nice one.

So, one of the terrorists' bombs go off in the middle of negotiations, and firing immediately starts. You, as the commander in charge, did not foresee this, and hence your forces are not in position to launch a well-planned assault. The terrorists are shooting kids. What would you do when every second counts?

The autistic stupidity of some of the opinions voiced here simply astound me.

[Hmmm]

So, one of the terrorists' bombs go off in the middle of negotiations, and firing immediately starts. You, as the commander in charge, did not foresee this, and hence your forces are not in position to launch a well-planned assault. The terrorists are shooting kids. What would you do when every second counts?

The autistic stupidity of some of the opinions voiced here simply astound me.

I'd have done what any other special forces except the Russian SOF units would have done - i.e. not killed the hostages I'm supposed to save. Judging from their actions, one would think they noticed the terrorists killing hostages and decided to expedite the process.

But yeah, #missionaccomplished. Beslan was certainly a proud day for the clowns of the Spetsnaz and FSB, if we were to believe you that is. For anyone else, it's pretty obvious it was a massive embarrassment and revealed a major lack of readiness.

As I suspected, there's no reasoning with you.

[Telamon]

Yes, it would be smarter to let the terrorists continue gunning down the hostages than to quickly kill them with anti personell shells.

It's not as if these guys just showed up and started shooting, the Russian security forces had plenty of time to set up some kind of contigency plan if they did start shooting. Regardless, nowhere in the civilised world would a hostage situation be resolved by firing tank shells into the place packed with hostages. You throwing childish insults around doesn't change this fact.

[L'Ost]

Like the Bataclan, right, Nikitn ?

like yet another brainless drone

This, is why Russia will always have a problem with Europe.
Europe should be nobody's "drone", and while I can understand why you seem to see us like that (OTAN prehistorical crap that is making the future WW3 against Europe - again, thank you -), people should really calm down there.

Nobody insults Russia here. NOBODY INSULTS RUSSIAN PEOPLE HERE.

If you say Beslan wasn't handle perfectly there is to be consequences, you can't say "whatever" ??????????
What would the world have said if we helidropped a carrier on the Bataclan to "solve" the problem ? "Whatever" ? What do you tell to your families : "Whatever. Sad." ?

If there was a human right tribunal in Russia that call France a traitor to human right principles, that we wrote in a very special context - former colony, how we acted in Africa, etc, I or many others in France would agree. That is the difference : nobody can tell anything to Russia, ever, yet Putin and Trump the two attention whores are still inventing stories everyday about them that we should care.

Now tell me, why should you care about CEDH ?

resolved by firing tank shells into the place packed with hostages

wtf, really ?

[Nikitn]

It's not as if these guys just showed up and started shooting, the Russian security forces had plenty of time to set up some kind of contigency plan if they did start shooting. Regardless, nowhere in the civilised world would a hostage situation be resolved by firing tank shells into the place packed with hostages. You throwing childish insults around doesn't change this fact.

Call it an insult if you want, but it's plainly a factual observation. Of course they had contingency plans, trouble is the chaos and the fact that the assault didn't have any element of surprise.

The siege was obviously not handled perfectly, but there is no point in coming with disgusting rulings like this and inane criticism (as if the "civilised world" would've performed better when met with 3 dozens of entrenched, suicidal, heavily armed and combat-experienced terrorists keeping hundreds of hostages ) - it truly has no effects except provocation.

Like the Bataclan, right, Nikitn ?


This, is why Russia will always have a problem with Europe.
Europe should be nobody's "drone", and while I can understand why you seem to see us like that (OTAN prehistorical crap that is making the future WW3 against Europe - again, thank you -), people should really calm down there.

Nobody insults Russia here. If you say Beslan wasn't handle perfectly there is to be consequences, you can't say "whatever" ??????????

If there was a human right tribunal in Russia that call France a traitor to human right principles, that we wrote in a very special context - former colony, how we acted in Africa, etc, I or many others in France would agree. That is the difference : nobody can tell anything to Russia, ever, yet Putin and Trump the two attention whores are still inventing stories everyday about them that we should care.

Your view of the situation is shallow and obtuse, and you're utterly missing the point when you think this is just a small insignificant ruling. This ruling is in fact yet another example in a long and growing line of russophobic hysteria, and it is indeed making the general public have an extremely hostile view of Russia, and it'll get worse the longer this continues. Now, understanding why it's a bad thing when the public is whisked into a frenzy against a nation, given the bloody history of Europe, shouldn't be too difficult.

Also, what makes you think there were no concequences for the ones in charge and no lessons learned after the Beslan siege?

[L'Ost]

I'm not saying there's no lessons learned that nobody should have to learn in the first place, but there was no consequences.

As for "russophobia", I found quite strange that both Russians and Americans thinks the world is 0 and 1's. Especially Russians.
You can tell anything but Europe may be the place on Earth where people fighted the more, and that kind of 0 vs 1 thinking makes people always want to play the same ing wargame in the same ing place.
Russia / USA are ivory towers compared to us, so go fight in the pacific for the next one.

This is what you call "russophobia", it is not "russophobia", it is "warphobia" if you want. Mixed with prudence.

[Acco]

Very misleading title, as that is absolutely not what the court said. But I suppose it is easier to cry about "russophobia" with this editorialized title than the actual one.

It's truly disgusting to put this into the spotlight and make the victims relive this horror.

This case was initiated by relatives of the victims...

[Heathen Hammer]

US or any other Western country hasn't really dealt with a hostage situation like that, so it is quite easy to judge.
I do blame Putin, but for a different reason. Establishing a pro-Russian regime with former terrorists at its leadership (Kadyrov and his cronies fought against Russia in the 1990s), as well as throwing taxpayer money at them won't resolve the issue, which could only be solved by either Dzhugashvili-style expulsion, assimilation or simply kicking Chechen province out of the Federation. I would rather see more Russian regions that ended up part of Eastern Europe and Central Asia to go back to Russia then some medieval islamist shitehole like Chechnya that would just be leeching from Russian taxpayer. .