How are you enjoying the slow death of TWC?

[mishkin]

The topic here isnt citizenship or the curia either, but wtf.

[PikeStance]

Its the death of TWC,... isn't citizenship and the Curia part of it? I think it is?

[lolIsuck]

So today, you have a badge, the honor, but you also have a burden. You are still expected to "behave" above the average members.

This isn't really true. Citizens are expected to behave the same way as all other members, as long as you don't break the ToS there is no problem. Only if a citizen does break the ToS and this ToS-break results in a note/infraction is there a chance of the Triumvirate taking action against him. Sticking to the rules of the forum can hardly be described as a burden. The only people who are really judged on their behaviour are candidates for citizenship, once you've got it you can do as you like (within the limits of the ToS of course).

[PikeStance]

So today, you have a badge, the honor, but you also have a burden. You are still expected to "behave" above the average members.

This isn't really true. Citizens are expected to behave the same way as all other members, as long as you don't break the ToS there is no problem. Only if a citizen does break the ToS and this ToS-break results in a note/infraction is there a chance of the Triumvirate taking action against him. Sticking to the rules of the forum can hardly be described as a burden. The only people who are really judged on their behaviour are candidates for citizenship, once you've got it you can do as you like (within the limits of the ToS of course).

So, actually yes really, then. No?
I never made this point at all.
However, above, you mentioned that the triumvirate can take action. Oh BTW, did you know the Triumvirate do not need a ToS violation to discipline you as a citizen, because it certainly can.

[mishkin]

How many citizen referrals (not cases sent by moderation because of a tos violation, but direct denunciations of citizens) in the last years pike? How many citizens are judged for not meeting the mysterious "high standards" of citizenship? I only recall one case in the last two years. (and the citizen was considered "not guilty". If I recall clearly). Oops: Two cases. The other one a "fake case" to permit a citizen to abandon his badge (to resign wasnr possible back then).

[PikeStance]

How many citizen referrals (not cases sent by moderation because of a tos violation, but direct denunciations of citizens) in the last years pike? How many citizens are judged for not meeting the mysterious "high standards" of citizenship? I only recall one case in the last two years. (and the citizen was considered "not guilty". If I recall clearly). Oops: Two cases. The other one a "fake case" to permit a citizen to abandon his badge (to resign wasnr possible back then).

It is not mysterious.
The burden of proof is met because it is possible. The fact that it was done once in the past 4 years is lagniappe.

[This much be the night where people say one thing is not true and then go out of the way to prove otherwise in the same post. ... looking out window for a full moon]

[Johnadiw26]

In order to answer that question, you need to understand the history.
Initially, citizenship was bestowed upon you from admin. They would simply suggest your name, have a very informal vote in some cases, and if enough of them agreed, they will offer citizenship. Later, the process was opened up for citizens (if you were a Patrician) and then later all citizens who have been a citizen for 3 months. Back then, there was only one kind of citizen. That was the Civitates. Later, in recognition of modders, they created the "Artifex." The benefits was that you can determine site policy and function. At one time, the Curia even elected a representative that was part of the admin. Later, it was changed that the Curia could "suggest" changes, but the inference is that as long as it was technical feasible, it would be implemented. This change led to a drop in Curia activity. This would lead to the end of the Curia "Golden Age" as someone once referred to it. Many of the "debaters" either dropped their activity or "retreated to the D&D section of the forum. The next era is the Content supremacy era. Activity was still quite good, though much less than it was previously. During this time, CdeC was the most important within the Curia. The CdeC reviewed citizenship applications and handled any discipline issues regarding citizens. As I said the activity was still good; however, regulars were viewed as role- playing. This was probably more due to what the Curia once were and what was at that time; an advisory group. Citizenship still had value despite the loss of the important aspect. Thanks to the development of Content on TWC, the site was full of activity both good and bad. Later (and not too far back in history), the CdeC would be removed. The accusation was that citizenship application was too overly critical of applicants and some were only a member to collect a badge. To be honest, this accusation was probably only true for a few exceptional cases. In the end, the CdeC was removed. Thus began the slow devolving of citizenship. What followed was a slow devolving of citizenship. You once had to be a citizens to be a site moderator. This was changed. The next step was the removal of Citizenship as a "status." This was more symbolic, but an important one. What we have today is a misnomer. We have "citizenship" but you really not a "citizen" of anything. You have a badge, but is really just an award. Patronages for citizenship as dropped dramatically in the past 4 years. If citizenship as little or no value, the patronizing a member for that "award" lacks any prestige as well.

So today, you have a badge, the honor, but you also have a burden. You are still expected to "behave" above the average members. In some cases, when citizenship is suspended for discipline reasons, the member opts to not ask for it back or choose to "resign."
As i alluded to above, what one would expect for citizenship is a status. A status where your voice will count for something. You still technically have that voice, but current state of affairs discourages things to change anytime soon. Most do not bother or just choose to ignore it. It being the Curia.

Thank you for the detailed explanation, @pikestance. May you give a detail about the current state of affairs?

[Frunk]

Its totally off topic, but I subscribe the words of bigdaddy^. It should be possible to add people who are not at the level of real moderators to the ignore list. (But if someone insult you or displays a bad behavior, you should contact Tango)

This is a limitation of the forum software. Nothing more.

You already know about the "report" button, so use it. The topic here is not moderation.

bigdaddy is quite clearly relating this problem to the decline of his site, which is what this thread is about.

If you believe someone is posting off-topic, please use the Report button, instead of making a reply about it yourself.

[Stavroforos]

You guys are missing the forest for the trees: the Curia is dead regardless of what debates Pike and mish want to have, but so is TWC.

[Pontifex Maximus]

Awarded by the Curia for a remarkable deed that benefited the TWC community.

Essentially, it an award for an action that is in the moment beneficial, but is les than what you would give a large award for.

The proposal and discussion: here


I supposed if TinCow had done his deed today, he would be giving this award instead of a large award. I supposed that is more equitable.

There was many a night where I stayed up late to string-ban a disgruntled user bent on posting as much scat porn as possible using multiple accounts, and all I got was this stinking Novus.

[Inkie]

I'm guessing the scat and the stench of your Novus are related, then? From what I hear, to moderate, one cannot be afraid of getting their hands dirty.

[mishkin]

Pike, one citizen (twice) in four years. Citizens do not suffer exceptional scrutiny because they are so. The badge is not a burden.

[bigdaddy1204]

You already know about the "report" button, so use it. The topic here is not moderation.

I disagree. The topic is the slow death of the TW centre. The behaviour of members and the functionality of the site are both highly relevant to that discussion. I've been a member since 2007. But what if newer members see this type of behaviour? It doesn't look good.

I am aware of the report button and it's good advice to use it. But I don't think it's unreasonable, given the subject, to discuss people's concerns about the site. I am still here after 10 years so there must be something that keeps me coming back.

[PikeStance]

bigdaddy is quite clearly relating this problem to the decline of his site, which is what this thread is about.

I disagree. The topic is the slow death of the TW centre. The behaviour of members and the functionality of the site are both highly relevant to that discussion. I've been a member since 2007. But what if newer members see this type of behaviour? It doesn't look good.
I am aware of the report button and it's good advice to use it. But I don't think it's unreasonable, given the subject, to discuss people's concerns about the site. I am still here after 10 years so there must be something that keeps me coming back.

fair enough! I withdraw my comment. Please do share!

If you believe someone is posting off-topic, please use the Report button, instead of making a reply about it yourself.

I never thought it was that noteworthy to consider that.

Pike, one citizen (twice) in four years. Citizens do not suffer exceptional scrutiny because they are so. The badge is not a burden.

The scrutiny is an established fact. perhaps it should be used more often, but given the state of citizenship, I do not see that happening anytime soon. The fact is people chose not to keep citizenship because the benefits does not outweigh the cost.

@pikestance. May you give a detail about the current state of affairs?

When I have a bit of time, i will.

[Lifthrasir]

What cost??? If you refer about that behaviour standard, that's not a big deal as explained by lolIsuck, just a few posts above.

[lolIsuck]

So, actually yes really, then. No?

No, citizens are expected to behave the same as all other members. If they don't there is just the possibility of some extra "punishment" by the Curia but that still doesn't mean they are expected to behave better than non-citizens.

I never made this point at all.

Then what is this burden we have to carry, Pike?

However, above, you mentioned that the triumvirate can take action. Oh BTW, did you know the Triumvirate do not need a ToS violation to discipline you as a citizen, because it certainly can.

Yes, I am aware of that. In theory the Triumvirate can discipline citizens for acting like an :wub: but as far as I'm aware the Censors do not actively monitor citizens' behaviour and cases like this are extremely rare. Besides, acting like an :wub: isn't something we expect to see in other members either and moderation will generally have a word with people displaying undesirable behaviour, even when it stays within the limits of the ToS.

In any case, my point wasn't that citizens can't lose their badge due to bad behaviour but that your claim that citizens are expected to "behave above the average members" simply isn't true.

[PikeStance]

No, citizens are expected to behave the same as all other members. If they don't there is just the possibility of some extra "punishment" by the Curia but that still doesn't mean they are expected to behave better than non-citizens.

Then what is this burden we have to carry, Pike?

Yes, I am aware of that. In theory the Triumvirate can discipline citizens for acting like an :wub: but as far as I'm aware the Censors do not actively monitor citizens' behaviour and cases like this are extremely rare. Besides, acting like an :wub: isn't something we expect to see in other members either and moderation will generally have a word with people displaying undesirable behaviour, even when it stays within the limits of the ToS.

In any case, my point wasn't that citizens can't lose their badge due to bad behaviour but that your claim that citizens are expected to "behave above the average members" simply isn't true.

At the risk of another circular discussion, I will respond one final time on this. My comments came directly from citizens who told me why they do not bother with citizenship at all. The quote' "It is not worth the extra aggravation." If you want to ignore that be my guest. The bottom line is citizenship gives you a badge, access to Curia no one cares about, and make proposals that will most likely be ignored for years.

When I approach member about citizenship, I have standard copy and paste in which half of it is hardly true anymore. I just hope they don't actually noticed. Most do not care anyway. They just care for the award and go away. Some do participate in the Curia (modestly). Selling citizenship is a lot like selling a used car in which you know something is going to break soon. All you have to do is read this thread. But hey, it is sure easier to pretend what people saying is BS isn't it?

[mishkin]

Do you expect to discuss based on what you say that some users have told you privately?
I see perfectly possible that a citizen (how many citizens have ever done this? One? Two?) that usually break the ToS and consequently are brought before the triumvirate want to save this last step in future infractions and therefore prefer to renounce citizenship. To infer from this exceptional cases that the plate is considered a burden and an extra responsability is a tremendous exaggeration.

Unless you have some serious discrepancy with the institution that grants it, being accepted among citizenship/rewarded with the badge should be an honor, and just that. No responsibility / weight added.

[PikeStance]

Do you expect to discuss based on what you say that some users have told you privately?
I see perfectly possible that a citizen (how many citizens have ever done this? One? Two?) that usually break the ToS and consequently are brought before the triumvirate want to save this last step in future infractions and therefore prefer to renounce citizenship. To infer from this exceptional cases that the plate is considered a burden and an extra responsability is a tremendous exaggeration.

Unless you have some serious discrepancy with the institution that grants it, being accepted among citizenship/rewarded with the badge should be an honor, and just that. No responsibility / weight added.

You rejected the concept of citizenship as a status on this site. It seems a little disingenuous to demand that people should accept it to your own specific understanding. Perhaps if people see it as you do, then your argument has weight, but people do not. Either they give it no value even as an award, see it with some limited value, as an award, or they see it as something more, a status. In each case, the "weight" would be have an effect. Members who have rejected citizenship chose to resign because the benefits was not worth the added burden/ cost/ or aggravation. This is based on the their own perception I stated above. I think you get what I mean when you write; "unless you have serious discrepancy with the institution that grants it." Depending when they were granted citizenship, citizenship represented something else than it is now (or at the moment of resignation).

[mishkin]

I do not know how is relevant that I reject that a citizen has a higher status than another user based on my opinion that all users should be treated and respected in the same way. I have never spoken against rewarding users through citizenship or medals.

You keep talking about how users see citizenship, like a stupid prize that does not deserve to be taken into account or a burden that they do not want to bear, without contributing anything that corroborates what you say. Neither citizenship is so discredited (few or no other user apart from me has "serious discrepancy with the institution that grants it") nor, as you have been explained, is a burden.

It would be nice to hear the testimony of some user who has been offered citizenship (I repeat: just a reward for contributions and/or attitude) and rejected. The only cause I can imagine (and respect) for this rejection is to refuse to be examined by the curia panel. It would also be interesting to listen to those former citizens overwhelmed by the weight of the badge.