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Thread: I can honestly think of no other time period or geographical setting for the next TW historical game...

  1. #1
    Ecthelion's Avatar Great Ramen Connoisseur
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    Default I can honestly think of no other time period or geographical setting for the next TW historical game...

    It's going to be the Early Modern Period, from the late 15th Century to the late 17th Century. So primarily the Age of Discovery and the Wars of Religion.

    They have already confirmed that the new historical game will not be a sequel; it will not cover a previous time period.
    We can also be certain that the geographic focus will be Europe as TW games cater to a mostly Anglo-American or Western audience. Japan is pretty much the only non-Western locale that many in the West have any interest in (in terms of pre-modern battles). And we've already done the entirety of Japanese military history that anyone would have interest in.

    If we look at the European military history timeline we realize that every single period from Classical Greece (4th Century BC) to the Napoleonic Wars has already been covered...
    EXCEPT the 15th to 17th Centuries. This period is the gap between Medieval TW and Empire TW, AKA the period of "Pike and Shot".


    An earlier period game (so prior to 4th Century BC) is highly unlikely as it would no longer be focused in Europe. While I'm sure some people might find "Bronze Age Total War" to be interesting, I don't think the idea would pass muster with business executives; it's just not something many players are familiar with or interested in.

    A later period game set in the Victorian Era is also unlikely for 2 reasons:

    1. The "Long 19th Century" from the end of the Napoleonic Wars to the start of WWI is a relatively uneventful period in European military history. Yes there was the Crimean War and the Wars of German unification, but these were short localized wars, not the fodder for a base TW game, an expansion pack perhaps, but not a core game setting. TW games are always set in a period of high intensity warfare between belligerents of roughly equal power, the classic "warring states" model, which doesn't apply to the 19th Century. You can argue "alternate history", or "WWI in 1870", but I honestly don't think that will fly for players who like to re-enact major historical events.
    2. Victorian Era warfare is just not too diverse tactically speaking as we learned from Shogun II FotS which covers the same period but in Japan. FotS was mainly entertaining as there was the element of abrupt modernization so you had sword wielding samurai fighting Gatling guns. The same scenario does not apply to European warfare of the period unless we include colonial warfare. And I don't think they will make a game focused on colonial warfare. Conventional war between European armies would be too focused on firearms as cold steel was rendered largely obsolete by the 1860s as evidenced by the American Civil War. I can't imagine that CA will release a TW game where melee combat isn't a major focus.


    So purely by the process of elimination we can see that a pike and shot period game is the only viable option. And it's a fantastic option:

    1. Perfect "warring states" political setting with almost continuous Europe-wide warfare between the major powers.
    2. The religious conflict between the Protestants, Catholics, and Muslims is classic TW game mechanic fodder. So many potential mechanisms for religious struggle come to mind.
    3. Tactics are more diverse than in any previous or succeeding period. The Pike and Shot period, as the name implies, is the transitional period between medieval cold steel and modern firearms. It is a time when the pike and sword were just as important as the musket and cannon. The technological race is also a major element that can spice up game mechanics as nations research better firearms technology.




    The last stand of the Spanish infantry at Rocroi, 1643.

    Rocroi was a decisive defeat for the Hapsburgs towards the end of the Thirty Years' War, a war that could easily be a TW game all by itself.
    Last edited by Ecthelion; April 09, 2017 at 03:48 PM.
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    Default Re: I can honestly think of no other time period or geographical setting for the next TW historical game...

    I honestly think this is likely to be it. However I'd like to see it extended to the mid-18th but keeping the European focus. My reason for that is simply that Empire Total War was a real-let down because the scope was too expansive. Having to worry about fighting a war in Europe while at the same time worrying about your trade routes or some far-flung theater involving your colonies just dragged that game down. I think what you're suggesting could take in a very interesting period of European Warfare that this company has only partially covered and not-very-well at that!

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    Inhuman One's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: I can honestly think of no other time period or geographical setting for the next TW historical game...

    This is the one I'd like the most yes, and they should not extend it into the later eras. then you get a large mess, like age of empires 3. The early units would be too different from the late game units. I'd rather see them make a new empire total war later and have them covering this period properly, with a lot of variation.

    They could include Japan too perhaps, as a theatre to visit to with Japan as a playable faction even.

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    Default Re: I can honestly think of no other time period or geographical setting for the next TW historical game...

    As I said in TW forums, this would be Camping Simulator 2019 : don't move, hold your pikes, forgo cavalery and shoot whatever is coming close. Noobcamp strategy at its best.

    Super fun. Not.
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    Inhuman One's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: I can honestly think of no other time period or geographical setting for the next TW historical game...

    Not at all, there's a lot more to this period.



    No other era used a wider range of weaponry than the pike and shot era too actually.

    There's plate armor but also various kinds of lighter armor, some bucklers and shields are still used.

    All the weaponry of the medieval period is there, but also muskets, pistols, grenades and zweihanders. It's actually the only period where Zweihanders where popular.

  6. #6

    Default Re: I can honestly think of no other time period or geographical setting for the next TW historical game...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ecthelion View Post
    It's going to be the Early Modern Period, from the late 15th Century to the late 17th Century. So primarily the Age of Discovery and the Wars of Religion.

    They have already confirmed that the new historical game will not be a sequel; it will not cover a previous time period.
    We can also be certain that the geographic focus will be Europe as TW games cater to a mostly Anglo-American or Western audience. Japan is pretty much the only non-Western locale that many in the West have any interest in (in terms of pre-modern battles). And we've already done the entirety of Japanese military history that anyone would have interest in.

    If we look at the European military history timeline we realize that every single period from Classical Greece (4th Century BC) to the Napoleonic Wars has already been covered...
    EXCEPT the 15th to 17th Centuries. This period is the gap between Medieval TW and Empire TW, AKA the period of "Pike and Shot"....
    Wait a minute, you claim it won't be non-European because people don't care about non western settings besides Japan, then you go ahead and pick a setting most people probably don't care about and know even less about.

    The vast majority of people in the West (especially the US, the largest gaming market) probably know very little (if anything at all) about the pike and shot era, and would have very little interest in it if we go by the assumption that knowledge and media (zero big budget movies about this era that I can think of) determines the level of interest. Also, this era was indirectly covered by medieval 2 and its expansions (Americas campaign covers
    European pike and shot units in the 15th-16th century), and Empire covers the 17th century.. The pike and shot era is unlikely imo if we go by interest/knowledge levels and by CA's statement of a new era they've never done before.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ecthelion View Post

    The "Long 19th Century" from the end of the Napoleonic Wars to the start of WWI is a relatively uneventful period in European military history
    There was plenty of events going on in the Victorian era in other parts of the world. The British Empire was conquering large swaths of territory in Africa and Asia in the 18th-19th century, and still maintained colonies in the Americas, Australia, etc.
    Last edited by Intranetusa; April 11, 2017 at 01:42 PM.

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    Huberto's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Re: I can honestly think of no other time period or geographical setting for the next TW historical game...

    Personally, I think it will be Victoria or possibly Ghengis Kahn (per Oakley) but pike and shot/30 Year's War would be awesome and perhaps a great learning opportunity for the Americans among us . CA Staff would have a long reading list, starting with Fernand Braudel's The Mediterranean. Whatever it is, it's already been decided by CA/SEGA, and it was decided a long time ago.

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    Inhuman One's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: I can honestly think of no other time period or geographical setting for the next TW historical game...

    There are movies set in this era, I just showed an example above. Aside from that everyone knows the famous story of the three musketeers, which takes place during this period. And Assasin's Creed. And pirate movies.

    Recent Dutch movie Michiel de Ruyter was also about this period.

    Medieval 2 covered the period quite poorly and starts out in the medieval age, which makes for a rather different set of playable factions. Many of the medieval 2 factions get very little pike and shot troops, often not enough to build a balanced army with.

  9. #9

    Default Re: I can honestly think of no other time period or geographical setting for the next TW historical game...

    Quote Originally Posted by Inhuman One View Post
    There are movies set in this era, I just showed an example above. Aside from that everyone knows the famous story of the three musketeers, which takes place during this period. And Assasin's Creed. And pirate movies.

    Recent Dutch movie Michiel de Ruyter was also about this period.

    Medieval 2 covered the period quite poorly and starts out in the medieval age, which makes for a rather different set of playable factions. Many of the medieval 2 factions get very little pike and shot troops, often not enough to build a balanced army with.
    1) I didn't say there weren't any movies set in the era. I said there aren't any big budget movies set in this era. Of course there will always be smaller budget films tied to a nation's history like the one you mentioned, but its audience and influence are both very small. You need big budget films or Hollywood films with a widespread audience to give people an idea of the culture and warfare of the time.

    2) Pirate movies are set in TW Empire's timeline and are usually set in the Americas, not Europe. The most famous being the Pirates of the Carribean series, which takes place in the 18th century Americas. Other famous pirates such as Blackbeard were also in 18th century Americas. You have very few famous pirates movies/media, if any at all, taking place in Pike and Shot Europe.

    3) Some games in the Assassin's Creed franchise and the 3 musketeers do take place in this era, but both media series emphasize small scale combat/individuals as opposed to large scale pike and shot warfare. Even folks familiar with these two media wouldn't be familiar with pike and shot warfare.

    4) Medieval 2's and its Americas expansion both covered it though. Whether or not it was covered poorly is irrelevant, because CA flat out said they're not going to do an era they've already covered. And the pike and shot era was from early 16th to late 17th century - this is a very limited timeframe for a ful fledged TW game.
    Last edited by Intranetusa; April 12, 2017 at 02:33 PM.

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    Inhuman One's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: I can honestly think of no other time period or geographical setting for the next TW historical game...

    Shogun 2 used a far more limited timeframe. It did take place in the pike and shot era, but in Japan and not Europe.

    Alatriste appears to be made on a large budget, wether hollywood makes movies about it is irrelevant though, they hardly ever get it right and it's not like they release much movies about the classical period. Not that many historic movies are being made at all, really and when they are made, they often do not even try to get the history right.
    A movie like Braveheart does a very poor job at giving people an idea of the culture and warfare at the time, for example.

    Either way just because it's not an era you'd prefer, does not make it any less relevant. It does cover a timespan not yet covered before in total war.

    It's the time of the french royal musketeers, piracy, the rise of proffesional armies and many new innovations in warfare, conquistadores exploring the america's and the far east, there's also the inquisition going on and so much more.

    For a map set in this period, I would suggest for them to do something new, and go from europe all the way to Japan. Maps could be split, but connected like was done with India and Europe in Empire total war. And a reasonable part of the America's would also be there as a seperate theatre, the part that was explored during this period mainly.

    European, middle eastern, asian and american factions would all be playable. 1500 could be a good starting year. Allows the American factions some time to prepare.

    Speaking of which, fitting with this period, it could be possible for factions to develop technologies from different culture groups, stuff they cannot research themselves and would not be in their tech tree. They could obtain this through other means.
    This would enable a mix of units that nations historically developed through interaction with other cultures, and fictional units to represent a what if scenario. Meso American factions for example could unlock gunpowder units, cavalry and ships this way. It would just be basic stuff, no elite troops or anything.
    They could still hire mercenaries though, which could be more elite.

  11. #11

    Default Re: I can honestly think of no other time period or geographical setting for the next TW historical game...

    Quote Originally Posted by Inhuman One View Post
    Shogun 2 used a far more limited timeframe. It did take place in the pike and shot era, but in Japan and not Europe.
    So we've had a pike and shot era game in Europe (Medieval 2 + Medieval 2 expansions) AND a pike and shot era game in Japan (Shogun 2). That's just more evidence the next historical game won't be the pike and shot era.

    Quote Originally Posted by Inhuman One View Post
    Alatriste appears to be made on a large budget, wether hollywood makes movies about it is irrelevant though, they hardly ever get it right and it's not like they release much movies about the classical period. Not that many historic movies are being made at all, really and when they are made, they often do not even try to get the history right.
    A movie like Braveheart does a very poor job at giving people an idea of the culture and warfare at the time, for example.
    The budget of Alatriste was 24 million Euros and it only made 23 million USD worldwide. So it had a relatively small budget and made even less money than its budget. Granted, it doesn't seem to be a very good movie according to reviews, but it doesn't speak positively regarding the popularity of the pike and shot era and culture either.

    Braveheart may do a poor job at getting the culture right, but it was still a popular & big budget movie that made a lot of money and got folks interested in Scottish history. The entire premise of the OP's first post is that CA will only be doing stuff that is INTERESTING to Westerners, which is why OP stated the next historical TW game not take place in Asia or Africa. The Pike and Shot era is not very interesting to Westerners outside of a few folks who have studied its history.

    Quote Originally Posted by Inhuman One View Post
    Either way just because it's not an era you'd prefer, does not make it any less relevant. It does cover a timespan not yet covered before in total war.
    The exact same logic applies to you. Just because it's an era you do prefer, does not make it any more relevant. The pike and shot era isn't a very popular era in history or culture compared to many other possibilities out there. Folks in the West learn more about ancient Egypt and Mesopotamian bronze age than they do about the pike and shot era (for good reason too). If we go by OP's statements regarding Western popularity as an indicator of the next game, we're more likely to get a Greek bronze age/Trojan War era game than a pike and shot era game.

    And as stated above, pike and shot era does involve a timespan covered in total war games - multiple games too. TW games just does it poorly.


    Quote Originally Posted by Inhuman One View Post
    It's the time of the french royal musketeers, piracy, the rise of proffesional armies and many new innovations in warfare, conquistadores exploring the america's and the far east, there's also the inquisition going on and so much more.
    Quote Originally Posted by Inhuman One View Post
    Meso American factions for example could unlock gunpowder units, cavalry and ships this way. It would just be basic stuff, no elite troops or anything.
    They could still hire mercenaries though, which could be more elite.
    Professional armies have been around for thousands of years before the pike and shot era. Nearly every century involves some new innovation in warfare. MesoAmerican factions and Conquistadores exploring the Americas during the age of pike and shot already has its own Total War game - it's called Medieval 2 Total War: Americas Campaign.

    Quote Originally Posted by Inhuman One View Post
    For a map set in this period, I would suggest for them to do something new, and go from europe all the way to Japan. Maps could be split, but connected like was done with India and Europe in Empire total war. And a reasonable part of the America's would also be there as a seperate theatre, the part that was explored during this period mainly.

    European, middle eastern, asian and american factions would all be playable. 1500 could be a good starting year. Allows the American factions some time to prepare.
    Speaking of which, fitting with this period, it could be possible for factions to develop technologies from different culture groups, stuff they cannot research themselves and would not be in their tech tree. They could obtain this through other means.
    This would enable a mix of units that nations historically developed through interaction with other cultures, and fictional units to represent a what if scenario.
    If you want a game that focuses on Europe as well as a giant map of Asia, Europe, and Africa, then you're better off going with Victoria Total War. At least you can play as the British Empire and fight Qing China, India, South Africa/African kingdoms such as the Zulus, and fight the kingdoms of Afghanistan, Persia, and Bruma, etc. If not, then the next best thing is Mongol Total War, but that's already been indirectly covered.

    There is little reason to include China or India during the Pike and Shot era as they were more concerned with their internal affairs and local threats and interacted relatively little with Europe compared to later times. China at the time was involved in something called the Imjin War (involving Japan, Manchurians, and Korea), which is totally outside the scope of European pike and shot era. Warfare in these areas also had nothing to do with "Pike and Shot" as found in Europe, so including Asia would defeat the purpose of focusing on "pike in shot" in the first place. There is very little reason to include most of Asia if the game is going to focus on European pike and shot since they were off doing their own thing without "pike and shot." It lacks a unifying factor.
    Last edited by Intranetusa; April 12, 2017 at 06:30 PM.

  12. #12
    WhiskeySykes's Avatar Miles
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    Default Re: I can honestly think of no other time period or geographical setting for the next TW historical game...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ecthelion View Post
    It's going to be the Early Modern Period, from the late 15th Century to the late 17th Century. So primarily the Age of Discovery and the Wars of Religion. ...
    Yeah, an Age of Discovery, wherein our intrepid team discover the time line has closed all around them. Thirty Years War is their first campaign, great. Now if they want to create a second, then close development with a spin-off, as has been a pattern with them, what are their options? I'm sure any number of ideas could be contrived, but frankly your process hasn't eliminated what you think its eliminated... unless you were gunning for Hyboria Total War.

    Everyone's aware what that other contender is... Call me out, but hyping either possibility is way premature. I don't mean any of this to be rude. I'd like a good TW set in the Age of Discovery, but I'd like a good TW set in [redacted]. Until we know the game is actually playable, and at least something has been innovated (in a good way), we shouldn't be helping their PR for nothing. Also, and this is otherwise minor, but decisions like setting aren't made by shareholders or executives, so I wouldn't use that in your argument. If there was a take-over, a merger of some sort, they sold the company, then yeah we could only speculate. Typically, these guys don't vote on minutia - think big picture, like keeping the lights on in the office for 20 years.

    Let me tell ya, shareholders and big suits aren't driving the industry. Crony developers, sleazy publishers, and fake-o journalism - they drive the industry, and they've flushed the market with more crap than the poopsmith can peel, or whatever he does with poop. Then we get all hyped for unannounced games (that probably won't work day one), and we wonder why the new stuff doesn't cut it like the old.

    /
    Last edited by WhiskeySykes; April 13, 2017 at 05:50 AM. Reason: grammar
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    Default Re: I can honestly think of no other time period or geographical setting for the next TW historical game...

    But maybe the Victorian era?

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    WhiskeySykes's Avatar Miles
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    Default Re: I can honestly think of no other time period or geographical setting for the next TW historical game...

    Quote Originally Posted by MilesNDavis View Post
    But maybe the Victorian era?
    They would get boned. The stupidly disproportionate number of innovations, revolutions, discoveries, cultures, and wars to timespan than any era before or since would make a grand campaign in the TW tradition impossible. They couldn't justify a Victorian Era, let alone balance it.
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    HigoChumbo's Avatar Definitely not Jom.
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    Default Re: I can honestly think of no other time period or geographical setting for the next TW historical game...

    Quote Originally Posted by L'Ost View Post
    As I said in TW forums, this would be Camping Simulator 2019 : don't move, hold your pikes, forgo cavalery and shoot whatever is coming close. Noobcamp strategy at its best.

    Super fun. Not.
    Change pikes for bayonets and that description could pretty much fit what Wellington did in Waterloo and I see no one complaining about the truckload of games and movies we have about it.



    Total Wars have never been historical military simulators. They are adaptations, pretty much what Braveheart is to real history. They could perfectly adapt the warfare of the time so that it gives the same "feel" but make it fun, interesting and varied. For instance, at the time it was normal to have both the slow-moving Tercio formrations as well as light, fast-moving detachments of skirmishing muskets, and of course there is still cavalry. They could get an interesting balance of playing with that massive, clunky protection of the pike block while launching detachments of skirmishers here and there, but making all elements complement each other (skirmishers will have to deal with dangers the slow pikes can't reach while having to depend on the pikes for protection when things get dire).


    Think of Pike Blocks like aircraft carriers and skirmisher detachments as fighter squadrons with limited action autonomy and reach. The actions of the fighters are as important as the manoeuvring of the carrier fleet, and the carrier also relies on protection from both the fighters and it's ship escorts (which could perfectly be our cavalry). You would have several types of engagements in the same battle, from small fighter skirmishes to all out full naval engagements.

    They could focus more combined actions and the interdependence between different types of units than in a mere rock-paper-scissors thing where you just attack archers with cavalry, cavalry with infantry, and infantry with archers.



    If done properly, with creativity and ambition, there is more than enough variety to create gameplay much more open and interesting than any other Total War to date (save for maybe Warhammer, with all it's giants and eagles and magic and whatnot). I'd rather have something new and deep instead of the usual, repetitive hammer and anvil strategy we have had in every single historical Total War game to date.



    Quote Originally Posted by Intranetusa
    Wait a minute, you claim it won't be non-European because people don't care about non western settings besides Japan, then you go ahead and pick a setting most people probably don't care about and know even less about.

    The vast majority of people in the West (especially the US, the largest gaming market) probably know very little (if anything at all) about the pike and shot era, and would have very little interest in it if we go by the assumption that knowledge and media (zero big budget movies about this era that I can think of) determines the level of interest
    The beauty of games is that they can teach new things and generate interests. As a kid, I had never heard of Carthaginians, Crusades, Longbows, Sarracens or Samurais before I had played Age of Empires or Total War, and those games created an interest in history out of nowhere which is the base for all I learnt afterwards. Who the hell knew about William Wallace out of Britain before Braveheart? Games and movies are the incentive for interest and knowledge, not so much the other way around.


    Besides, you tell me how much of the US audience had ever heard of Ummayads, Alans or Jutes before playing Attila/Charlemagne, and it's not a problem there.

    Sadly, interests are created by movies and games. If there is no interest in this period is because there are barely any movies or games about it (mostly because the media is mostly anglo-saxon and neither North America or England were as relevant in this period as they are used to be in everything after the late 18th century, and therefore they have a harder time relating to it), but that would change the moment there are movies and games about it, and we are not talking about some dark, niche period of history, we are talking about of one of the most relevant, influential and world-shaping periods in millennia, so it's about time people learn about it.

    If an Spaniard has the ability to connect with William Wallace or WW2, I don't see why Americans would lack the intellectual ability to connect with the European Conflicts of the 16th. and 17th. centuries if developed properly.



    The pike and shot era is unlikely imo if we go by interest/knowledge levels
    If we were to judge by that and the US market as you said above, then we'd sooner have a game about the American Civil War than anything else. I don't know about you, but I find it to be a much less relevant, interesting or rich event than pretty much anything that happened during the 16th or 17th. centuries.


    Do you think Mel Gibson did Apocalypto because the American audience was interested or knowledgeable about Mayans? I don't think so. And still, it worked and was critically acclaimed, and probably generated a previously inexistent interest in pre-Columbian cultures in many people.



    CA's statement of a new era they've never done before.
    So we've had a pike and shot era game in Europe (Medieval 2 + Medieval 2 expansions) AND a pike and shot era game in Japan (Shogun 2). That's just more evidence the next historical game won't be the pike and shot era.
    Also, this era was indirectly covered by medieval 2 and its expansions (Americas campaign covers European pike and shot units in the 15th-16th century), and Empire covers the 17th century
    Then your logic is extremely flawed, because by your logic we could say that Napoleon and Fall of the Samurai already cover the 19th. Century and therefore we can bid farewell to a Victoria Total War.

    Of the 200 years between 1500 and 1700, all those games combined cover what... 25 in total of Europe's history? As much as you insist, there is not a single TW game set in Europe during the period from roughly 1530 to 1700.

    Also, don't know if I'm missing some small bonus campaign or something, but the Grand Campaign in Empire Total War starts in 1700, so I don't see how it covers the 17th. century at all.



    The Pike and Shot era is not very interesting to Westerners outside of a few folks who have studied its history.
    I imagine that by "Westerners" you mean Americans and Brits, because you can go ask a Belgian, a German, a French, a Spaniard a Dutch a Swede or a Pole what they think of this period. Ask them if they are more interested in the constant media bombardment of Lincolns and Gettisburgs and Saratogas and Washingtons than they are in Italy during the Renaissance, or the Dutch Republic, or Gustavus Adolfus or Luther or Louis XIV

    Without getting any further, the 17th. Century is considered a Golden Age in the Netherlands (Gouden Eeuw), Spain (Siglo de Oro), France (Grand Siècle), Poland or Northern Italy. Hell, I bet that even the English consider the Elizabethan period a Golden Age, with Shakespeare, Drake, Bacon and so on.

    And that's not mentioning anyone interested in the Renaissance or the Baroque periods, some of the most famous in art history.



    Even historians consider the 16th. Century to mark the rise of the Western World... talk about something that should be interesting to Westerners...



    The pike and shot era isn't a very popular era in history or culture compared to many other possibilities out there.
    What the hell?

    Da Vinci, Michellangelo, Velázquez, Tiziano, Rubens, Rembrandt, Caravaggio, Hieronymus Bosch, El Greco, Brunelleschi, Bernini, Borromini... Copernicus, Galileo, Newton, Kepler, Gutenberg... Descartes, Shakespeare, Cervantes, Machiavelli, Luther, Locke... Colombus, Vasco da Gama, Zhan He, Cortes, Pizarro, Magellan... Henri VIII, Isabella and Ferdinand, Suleiman I, Mehmed II, Charles V, Francis I, Louis XIV and Richelieu, Gustavus Adolphus, William of Orange, Peter the Great, Jan Sobieski, the Medicis, the Borgias, the Fuggers... (and I'm intentionally leaving out everything related to Shogun and samurais, which also happened during the same period and was tied to western Europeans)

    Even for the Anglo-Saxons you have a lot of material with Henry VIII, Elizabeth I and the Armada, Cromwell and the Civil War, the Anglo-Dutch Wars, Francis Drake, the East India Company etc. And that's trying to stay away from science and culture (Newton, Hooke, Boyle, Bacon, Locke, Napier, Shakespeare, Thomas More...)


    And it's pretty much the same for military specifically, going from one of the bloodiest conflicts in history, the Thirty Years War to probably the biggest revolution in military since Antiquity.


    It is an extremely relevant era whether you like it or not. It's a matter of selling it, but there is definitely more material that you could dream of.



    Folks in the West learn more about ancient Egypt and Mesopotamian bronze age than they do about the pike and shot era (for good reason too)
    So, after everything I listed above... care to elaborate on that "for good reason too"?

    And I doubt that even your average nationalist Brit knows more about Mesopotamia or Egypt than he or she knows about the Shakespeare, Elizabeth I, the Spanish Armada, Henri VIII or even Anne freaking Boleyn.



    And the pike and shot era was from early 16th to late 17th century - this is a very limited timeframe for a ful fledged TW game.
    Almost 200 years a limited timeframe for a fully fledget TW game? What about Shogun? (55 years) What About Empire? (100 years) What about Napoleon? (20 years) What about Attila? (50 years)...

    And still you are clearly advocating for a TW set in the Victorian Era which lasted under 70 years? 100 years if you want to stretch it to the absolute possible limits? (Waterloo to WWI...)


    Mate, that's some hardcore contradictory bias, I'm sorry to say.



    Just because it's an era you do prefer, does not make it any more relevant
    Could say exactly the same to you. The fact that history and the media has been dominated by Brits and Americans for the past 200 years does not make the other periods in history in which Americans or Brits were in the background any less relevant or interesting.

    I don't know about you, but I find it quite sad that people know more about the American Civil War or D-Day than then know about the entire 16th. and 17th. Centuries. (And I'm not even being some kind of intellectual supremacist, most Europeans, myself included, know next to nothing about, say, Chinese history, but not because of that I'm going to disregard it just out of my ignorance about it).













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    There is very little reason to include most of Asia if the game is going to focus on European pike and shot since they were off doing their own thing without "pike and shot." It lacks a unifying factor.
    Philip the II of Spain even gave instructions to invade Ming China with an army of Spaniards and Portuguese tercios alongside Filipino and Japanese soldiers (at the time of Samurais), a plan which was finally not carried through due to the Jesuits wanting to avoid bloodshed in order to attempt to peacefully evangelize the Chinese and because the huge debt the Crown of Spain had at the time, as well as due to a series of delays, like the death of the designated commanders of the expedition or the loss of the fleet at the Armada.

    And I think it's too obvious to mention the Portuguese, Dutch and Spanish colonial empires and trading endeavours in the Pacific during the time.

    So if they wanted to include chunks of Asia for the what if appeal, it would be perfectly justified. The unifying factor is there (though I think a Pike and Shot game should be more focused in Europe as not to overstretch things too much and end up misrepresenting everything).


    Warfare in these areas also had nothing to do with "Pike and Shot" as found in Europe, so including Asia would defeat the purpose of focusing on "pike in shot" in the first place.
    And not one paragraph before saying this you were talking about how great it would be to trash Zulus with the Brits. I imagine the Zulus also fought in a modern European fashion.

    I don't know about you but I find asymmetry to be an asset to achieve interesting and varied gameplay, not a burden. And if you dig Brits shooting Zulu spearmen, I'm sure you'd also appreciate Samurais and Tercios fighting together against Ming soldiers.


    Professional armies have been around for thousands of years before the pike and shot era.
    From the English Wikipedia: "By other definitions of a standing army, being understood as one of volunteering professionals instead of that of conscription levies or hired mercenaries, Spain created Europe's and the world's first modern standing army through the creation of the distinguished Tercios by Emperor Charles I of Spain (also known as Charles V of Austria)."

    That's what he was referring to.


    Other famous pirates such as Blackbeard were also in 18th century Americas.
    What about Hayreddin Barbarossa dominating the Mediterranean in the 16th. Century?

    By far more successful and impactful than any of your typical Hollywoodian pirate of the Caribbean. Blackbeard had a minor impact on the Caribbean for what... couple of years? Barbarossa terrified the Mediterranean for decades, took control of entire countries, ended up either defeating or allying the top world powers of the time (Spain, France, Venice, the Ottomans...) and established a raiding legacy in the Barbary Coast which would last for hundreds of years. But hey, he was not named Smith or something, so too bad.

    Last edited by HigoChumbo; April 15, 2017 at 03:26 PM.

  16. #16

    Default Re: I can honestly think of no other time period or geographical setting for the next TW historical game...

    I completely agree with your assessment about the importance and variety of the Pike and Shot era, but the main problem is that the "popular culture" issue you mentioned functions as a vicious circle. The period's lack of popularity, especially among the anglo-saxon audience which makes the majority of CA's customers discourages the companies from investing on it. An unwillingness, which itself is also part of the problem, because it contributes to prolonging and worsening the same negative situation. Of course, the Pike and Shot era is not as obscure as Chinese history, about which there is no doubt that no TW game will be released in the immediate future, at least until the Chinese middle-class can compete with their American equivalent, but still, the Victorian era has a larger potential, in what concerns profits. Also, given CA's remarks on focusing on the crucial role played by specific characters, I personally suspect a game, which will begin from the late 19th or early 20th century (definitely after the German unification) and it will end in 1945. Incredibly well-known and popular period in such ridiculous rebels that would almost render any marketing campaign unnecessary.

    Finally, I am certain that the American Civil War is not going to happen, even as a DLC. Almost everyone outside the United States considers the conflict rather boring and the fact that, together with the War of the American Independece, every minor skirmish is included in Wikipedia, quite outrageous. Although the American customers are definitely CA's larger group, it is obvious that CA avoids releasing campaigns targeting a single nationality, even if it's the most influential economically-speaking. There are no Arthurs or Boadiceas in Attila or Rome II respectively, although, at best, the American Civil War could serve as a tutorial campaign, similar to what was featured in Empire.

    Personally, from all the uncovered historical periods, I would prefer a game concentrating on the fall of Assyria and the gradual rise of Persia (impossible to ever happen), but, concerning a more realistic scenario, Pike and Shot seems like the most attractive option. Colonizing Yucatan as the Danes or occupying the straits of Gibraltar as the Safavids, in order to control the Mediterrenean trade sounds fun.
    Last edited by Abdülmecid I; April 15, 2017 at 09:16 AM.

  17. #17
    Inhuman One's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: I can honestly think of no other time period or geographical setting for the next TW historical game...

    As a Dutchman I'd really like to see a pike and shot game, that is the period we where at our peak. The 80 years war with Spain brought us our independence.
    Maurice of Orange-Nassau was a brilliant Dutch stadtholder and commander whose reforms where copied through Europe. Such a game would be very popular here in the Netherlands.

    Through most of Europe, I think this period would be very popular. Obviously for the Spanish and Portuguese since they also where at the top of their game at the time, but I think every single European country had some interesting events through this period.

    Regarding the American audience, if they like history from the medieval period I am sure they'd like the pike and shot era too. It has guns and cannons.

    But yes, the tactics are more varied in this period. And that's what I really want from a new total war game. There's all kinds of answers here to the typical hammer and anvil warfare. I really like how many different kinds of weaponry would be available here, allowing you to really toy around with various tactics.

    I'd like to really be able to deploy formations that allow pikes and muskets to be used properly together. And pikes should be holding the formation instead of switching to swords for no reason.

  18. #18
    HigoChumbo's Avatar Definitely not Jom.
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    Default Re: I can honestly think of no other time period or geographical setting for the next TW historical game...

    Quote Originally Posted by Abdülmecid I View Post
    but the main problem is that the "popular culture" issue you mentioned functions as a vicious circle. The period's lack of popularity, especially among the anglo-saxon audience which makes the majority of CA's customers discourages the companies from investing on it. An unwillingness, which itself is also part of the problem, because it contributes to prolonging and worsening the same negative situation.
    Exactly, though I insist that interest can be generated out of nowhere by the media. It's a matter of taking the risk, creating a quality product and knowing how to sell it.

    Did most Americans know anything or cared about Danes, Jutes or the Geats before Attila? No, but name the dlc the Viking forefathers and you generate the interest. There are hundreds of iconic figures in the 16th. and 17th. that most people know about but don't necessarily relate to its historical context (Henry VIII, Michellangelo, Da Vinci, Shakespeare, Jamestown and whatnot), CA would just need to make the links obvious and appealing to get the audience started, and interest would grow from there.


    What did most gamers know about feudal Japan before Shogun other than Samurais and Ninjas? Who the hell had ever heard of a Daimyo, Oda Nobunaga, Nagashino or the Takeda?


    And I think the Apocalypto example I mentioned above is still relevant. Did Mel Gibson make the movie because American audiences were interested or knowledgeable about the Mayans? No, but still it worked, because it was good, and it was critically acclaimed (Tarantino named it a masterpiece, for instance), and that probably generated an interest in the period in many people.



    Worst case scenario, just make a pretty trailer



    In any case, as much as I would like to see it, I too find the Pike and Shot game unlikely due to a mixture of being a hard period to pull off and the lack of interest/knowledge in some markets, I just wanted to rebate some other arguments in this thread trying to justify that the period is just not that interesting for TW.




    but still, the Victorian era has a larger potential
    My main problem with the Victorian era is that, while the period itself is definitely great, the gameplay would ultimately be in general lines too similar to what we have already seen in Napoleon TW, Empire or Fall of the Samurai, and the campaign would probably feel a hell of a lot of the Grand Campaign in Empire, minus Zulus.

    A Pike and Shot game would in the other hand be a completely different beast to everything we've seen so far, a perfect blend of old and modern. If they managed to make the pike block gameplay interesting (and non-exploitable with everyone just using later military developments like infantry lines from the very beginning) then it would be an amazing period to set a TW game in.




    Quote Originally Posted by Inhuman One
    Such a game would be very popular here in the Netherlands.
    It would probably be a very popular game all over Europe, which is for gaming a market as big, if not bigger, as NorthAmerica (changes depending on the specific study).
    Last edited by HigoChumbo; April 15, 2017 at 01:21 PM.

  19. #19

    Default Re: I can honestly think of no other time period or geographical setting for the next TW historical game...

    Quote Originally Posted by HigoChumbo View Post
    ...The beauty of games is that they can teach new things and generate interests. As a kid, I had never heard of Carthaginians, Crusades, Longbows, Sarracens or Samurais before I had played Age of Empires or Total War, and those games created an interest in history out of nowhere which is the base for all I learnt afterwards. Who the hell knew about William Wallace out of Britain before Braveheart? Games and movies are the incentive for interest and knowledge, not so much the other way around. … Besides, you tell me how much of the US audience had ever heard of Ummayads, Alans or Jutes before playing Attila/Charlemagne, and it's not a problem there. If we were to judge by that and the US market as you said above, then we'd sooner have a game about the American Civil War than anything else. I don't know about you, but I find it to be a much less relevant, interesting or rich event than pretty much anything that happened during the 16th or 17th. centuries…. Do you think Mel Gibson did Apocalypto because the American audience was interested or knowledgeable about Mayans? I don't think so. And still, it worked and was critically acclaimed, and probably generated a previously inexistent interest in pre-Columbian cultures in many people.
    ... .
    You need to reread the OP’s first post again because you’ve missed my point.

    My point was pointing out the HYPOCRISY and DOUBLE STANDARD in the OP’s post because he first claims that we won’t have a game set in the Middle East, South Asia, East Asia, etc or the bronze age, etc because those settings aren’t popular in the West and won't sell well. Then the OP goes ahead and chooses a relatively lesser known and less popular period of European history.

    The only reason I brought up Victoria Era TW is because I’m using the OP’s own logic of basing the next Total War on an European setting that is popular in the West. If we want another European TW game, then Europe-centric Victoria TW is going to be more popular than Europe-centric pike and shot warfare. According to nearly every online poll I’ve seen, Victorian Era is the most popular Western setting for the next TW game.

    Also, the American Civil War doesn’t warrant a full game by itself – maybe as a Victoria Total War era expansion.

    Quote Originally Posted by HigoChumbo View Post
    … As much as you insist, there is not a single TW game set in Europe during the period from roughly 1530 to 1700.
    Also, don't know if I'm missing some small bonus campaign or something, but the Grand Campaign in Empire Total War starts in 1700, so I don't see how it covers the 17th. century at all.
    The grand campaign figures aren’t totally accurate. Some of the events depicted in the game belong in the 17th century. Sure, we don’t have a game set in Europe in those time periods, but we have games with European factions and European style warfare covering some of those time periods. If you want to talk about not covering the actual geographic setting, then besides Shogun and Americas, almost every single Total War game has been Europe centric. Logically, we wouldn’t even have a Europe centered game for the next TW one if you simply want to go by a geographic area not covered.

    Quote Originally Posted by HigoChumbo View Post
    I imagine that by "Westerners" you mean Americans and Brits, because you can go ask a Belgian, a German, a French, a Spaniard a Dutch a Swede or a Pole what they think of this period. Ask them if they are more interested in the constant media bombardment of Lincolns and Gettisburgs and Saratogas and Washingtons than they are in Italy during the Renaissance, or the Dutch Republic, or Gustavus Adolfus or Luther or Louis XIV…Even historians consider the 16th. Century to mark the rise of the Western World... talk about something that should be interesting to Westerners...
    What is the market for total war games in Germany, France, etc? We’re talking about markets here as incentives for CA to make the game. According to OP’s logic, it’s useless to set it in a time period or cater to a market that won’t make them money.
    If we want to bring up smaller countries with smaller gaming markets like Germany and France, the next game might as well be a China Total War game because their gaming market is going to generate comparable profits than those countries you mentioned combined.

    Quote Originally Posted by HigoChumbo View Post
    What the hell? Da Vinci, Michellangelo, Velázquez, Tiziano, Rubens, Rembrandt, Caravaggio, Hieronymus Bosch, El Greco, Brunelleschi, Bernini, Borromini... Copernicus, Galileo, Newton, Kepler, Gutenberg... Descartes, Shakespeare, Cervantes, Machiavelli, Luther, Locke... Colombus, Vasco da Gama, Zhan He, Cortes, Pizarro, Magellan... Henri VIII, Isabella and Ferdinand, Suleiman I, Mehmed II, Charles V, Francis I, Louis XIV and Richelieu, Gustavus Adolphus, William of Orange, Peter the Great, Jan Sobieski, the Medicis, the Borgias, the Fuggers... (and I'm intentionally leaving out everything related to Shogun and samurais, which also happened during the same period and was tied to western Europeans) Even for the Anglo-Saxons you have a lot of material with Henry VIII, Elizabeth I and the Armada, Cromwell and the Civil War, the Anglo-Dutch Wars, Francis Drake, the East India Company etc. And that's trying to stay away from science and culture (Newton, Hooke, Boyle, Bacon, Locke, Napier, Shakespeare, Thomas More...
    That’s nice, but most those folks have absolutely nothing to do with Total War games. You don’t send Da Vinci or Shakespeare off with an army to fight in a line formation. Some of the people you listed also aren’t even in the Age of Pike and shot, while others never fought in pike/shot warfare so it’s not relevant. Yes, some famous writers, poets, etc may have lived in the era, but that doesn’t generate enthusiasm for the actual warfare that folks know nothing about.

    Quote Originally Posted by HigoChumbo View Post
    It is an extremely relevant era whether you like it or not. It's a matter of selling it, but there is definitely more material that you could dream of. …And still you are clearly advocating for a TW set in the Victorian Era which lasted under 70 years? 100 years if you want to stretch it to the absolute possible limits? (Waterloo to WWI...)
    Mate, that's some hardcore contradictory bias, I'm sorry to say.
    I never said the Pike & Shot era is not relevant. I said it was not as relevant and not as popular relative to other eras in European history…and certainly not as relevant relatively speaking to world history. If we went by relevant eras, most of the TW games wouldn’t even be set in Europe. We would have had a full-fledged Mongol Total War game, we would’ve had games on China and their inventions of stirrups and gunpowder, we would’ve a bonze age game dealing with Egyptians, Assyrians, ancient Greeks, etc.
    I am not clearly advocating for a Victorian Era TW. I brought up Victorian as an example of the author’s hypocrisy. If we want another European game, then Pike and Shot isn’t even remotely the most popular European Era. Victorian Era beats Pike and Shot by a massive percentage in online polls for the next wanted TW game.

    Your contradiction bias is that you want to accept OP’s faulty premise that we can only have a European Total War game based on popularity and relevance to the West, and then reject the evidence that Pike and Shot isn’t even that popular or relevant compared to other periods in both Western AND World history. You can't agree with the OP by claiming we can only have European-centric games because CA only cares about selling lots of games with a popular timeperiod, and then pick a European setting that isn't that popular compared to many other choices of both European and non-European settings out there.

    Quote Originally Posted by HigoChumbo View Post
    Could say exactly the same to you. The fact that history and the media has been dominated by Brits and Americans for the past 200 years does not make the other periods in history in which Americans or Brits were in the background any less relevant or interesting.
    Tell that to the OP, not me. The OP started with the premise that we can only have European Total War games because Westerners only compare about the West (America/Europe). The media has been dominated by Europeans, which is why the OP thinks it’s a good idea to push Pike and Shot Warfare on us instead of the MANY better possibilities out there that just happen to not take place in Europe. And Victoria TW is more popular as a European setting anyways even if we go with the author's faulty premise.

    Quote Originally Posted by HigoChumbo View Post
    Philip the II of Spain even gave instructions to invade Ming China with an army of Spaniards and Portuguese tercios alongside Filipino and Japanese soldiers (at the time of Samurais), a plan which was finally not carried through due to the Jesuits wanting to avoid bloodshed in order to attempt to peacefully evangelize the Chinese and because the huge debt the Crown of Spain had at the time, as well as due to a series of delays, like the death of the designated commanders of the expedition or the loss of the fleet at the Armada.
    I read a little about that a while ago. It was a complete joke. IIRC, it was actually his colonial governors pushing the idea. And it is funny because Spain at the time was having trouble holding on to their small colonies, and were losing ground to other factions in Europe, and was suffering from massive debt problems too. They probably thought China was a pushover small country unaccustomed to technological advances in warfare.

    Quote Originally Posted by HigoChumbo View Post
    From the English Wikipedia: "By other definitions of a standing army, being understood as one of volunteering professionals instead of that of conscription levies or hired mercenaries, Spain created Europe's and the world's first modern standing army through the creation of the distinguished Tercios by Emperor Charles I of Spain (also known as Charles V of Austria)."
    That's what he was referring to.
    Well, he is wrong. Spain did not create the world’s first standing army. If you want to use English Wikipedia, at least read the article. In that wiki article, it states Ancient Mesopotamians, ancient Rome, ancient Greeks/Spartans, ancient Macedonians, etc all had standing armies thousands of years before the Pike and Shot era. And ancient China and Persia both had standing armies too in addition to whatever levies that made up their main force.

    According to wikipedia, the first “modern” standing army wasn’t even Spanish – it was created by the Ottoman Empire, and then later by the French in Western Europe before the Pike and Shot era.

    "The first modern standing armies in Europe were the Janissaries of the Ottoman Empire, formed in the fourteenth century.[6][7] In western Europe the first standing army was established by Charles VII of France in the year 1445.[8] The Hungarian king Matthias Corvinus had a standing army from the 1460s called the Fekete Sereg, which was an unusually big army in its age, accomplishing a series of victories and capturing parts of Austria, Vienna (1485) and parts of Bohemia."
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standing_army
    Last edited by Intranetusa; April 15, 2017 at 04:50 PM.

  20. #20
    WhiskeySykes's Avatar Miles
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    Default Re: I can honestly think of no other time period or geographical setting for the next TW historical game...

    All setting means is a full priced unit reskin, unless the siege and battle mechanics are developed beyond the humble standards of 2002. Warscape juggles a lot of stats and processes, there's plenty of room for interesting mechanics among them. Let's see them get the foundation right, before we argue about the paint job.
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