[Submod] Epeiros as alternate Hellenistic factions (Massalia and Syrakousai)

[QuintusSertorius]

I'm developing it in parallel with the upcoming patch, so hope to release it shortly afterwards. Most of the elements are done (since they can be translated from the previous version), there's just the new set of scripts I need to write up.

[Lyathon]

I can't wait! I just took what you said a while back that it would be released on 2.3a to mean 2.3.5. No worries

[QuintusSertorius]

Oh no, it'll be on the same "version" as the patch, just with the submod changes applied. I could have released one compliant with 2.35 weeks ago, but then I'd have to update it again, and I'd already made a lot of changes to the development build.

[QuintusSertorius]

It is with a little sadness I have to inform everyone that changes to Epeiros coming in the next patch make this submod both rather difficult and somewhat redundant.

To the positive, Epeiros will definitely not feel like "north-western Makedonia" in 2.35A.

[Lusitanio]

How about making Massalia an actual faction? I wouldn't go for Syracuse unless we could create another region in Sicily.

[Jervaj]

It is with a little sadness I have to inform everyone that changes to Epeiros coming in the next patch make this submod both rather difficult and somewhat redundant.

To the positive, Epeiros will definitely not feel like "north-western Makedonia" in 2.35A.

Why redundant? That part actually surprises me. After all is quite the different starting position and probably roster composition at least for a while that would be much more helleno-celtic.


Difficult I imagine has to do with the expected changes to hellensitic factions in general to be more unique. Im glad that those changes are gonna be in the pach, thought they were going to be part of a later bigger release, but I guess given how long the patch is taking its gonna include a lot more features. But wouldn't it be relativelly easy to supress any faction specific scripts of epeiros? Only fear may be that Syracuse and Massalia would feel bland in comparison potentially versus other factions. But maybe you could leave work in the submod for when the main factions are almost finished if its going to be a bigger and more detailed ordeal.

How about making Massalia an actual faction? I wouldn't go for Syracuse unless we could create another region in Sicily.

That I doubt, I I dont even think it would be a good diea. I mean it would be if faction limit wasn't a thing. But we already have many hellenic/nistic factions and in theory all the spots are already decided.

That aside, to be honest I actually have as much appeal for Syracuse than for Massalia. Its true that Sicily feels small in the mod, but so do many places. As a city Syracuse was more relevant and powerful though also in a mroe difficult position. Feels like an interesting playthrough to be honest. The central position in the mediterrenean means you are likely to be bothered to meddle with western greek colonies, magna grecia and the the hellas mainland.

[QuintusSertorius]

How about making Massalia an actual faction? I wouldn't go for Syracuse unless we could create another region in Sicily.

Massalia isn't viable as a faction. It's starting settlement is too small and under-developed, the region similarly poor unless you blitz southern Gaul. And once the Romans come for you, you'll spend the entirety of the rest of your game fighting them off.

Why redundant? That part actually surprises me. After all is quite the different starting position and probably roster composition at least for a while that would be much more helleno-celtic.

Redundant because the changes to Epeiros give them reason to want to expand westwards, Sicily being the critical part of that.

Difficult I imagine has to do with the expected changes to hellensitic factions in general to be more unique. Im glad that those changes are gonna be in the pach, thought they were going to be part of a later bigger release, but I guess given how long the patch is taking its gonna include a lot more features. But wouldn't it be relativelly easy to supress any faction specific scripts of epeiros? Only fear may be that Syracuse and Massalia would feel bland in comparison potentially versus other factions. But maybe you could leave work in the submod for when the main factions are almost finished if its going to be a bigger and more detailed ordeal.

Difficult because Epirote governments have been completely rewritten, including new UI/icons. Going back to how it was before is much more painful, and starting from scratch with a currently unused slot is even more work still.

[Jervaj]

Massalia isn't viable as a faction. It's starting settlement is too small and under-developed, the region similarly poor unless you blitz southern Gaul. And once the Romans come for you, you'll spend the entirety of the rest of your game fighting them off.

Well that kind of happens with other factions no? Theres several starting position that are poor or threatened. Though saying this I dont mean they deserve a slot, but they could be an interesting alternative for the submod still.

Redundant because the changes to Epeiros give them reason to want to expand westwards, Sicily being the critical part of that.

You do nothing but fuel my interest on this already very expected release jeje. Curious what would make them want to do that (aside of default been a big city with high greek culture and a metropolis) specially given it seems more complicated and conflicitive with other new factions than expanding in hellas, where you already have a conflict whether you like it or not and regions are more greek and richer in average.

Difficult because Epirote governments have been completely rewritten, including new UI/icons. Going back to how it was before is much more painful, and starting from scratch with a currently unused slot is even more work still.

As I was saying then the changes that make them more unique. However why is going back painful? Can't code/icons from previous/current version just be used?

Either way as I said I think it still may be an interesting submod but probably left for after the main mod is fully done given how fleshed out factions are now in average. They aren't that portable in general.

[Lusitanio]

I mean Massalia being a faction in your submod, not in the game.

[QuintusSertorius]

Well that kind of happens with other factions no? Theres several starting position that are poor or threatened. Though saying this I dont mean they deserve a slot, but they could be an interesting alternative for the submod still.

They could still be interesting, I did have a new family tree (with only Alexandros from the Epirote line - he's actually a descendant of a former Sicilian tyrant through his mother) and some new scripts.

You do nothing but fuel my interest on this already very expected release jeje. Curious what would make them want to do that (aside of default been a big city with high greek culture and a metropolis) specially given it seems more complicated and conflicitive with other new factions than expanding in hellas, where you already have a conflict whether you like it or not and regions are more greek and richer in average.

Without giving too much away, one of Epeiros' two (mutually exclusive) reforms requires ownership of Sicily. It's about the prestige of the Aiakides. They no longer have a "rebuild Alexander's empire" motivation like Makedonia or the other Successors.

As I was saying then the changes that make them more unique. However why is going back painful? Can't code/icons from previous/current version just be used?

Either way as I said I think it still may be an interesting submod but probably left for after the main mod is fully done given how fleshed out factions are now in average. They aren't that portable in general.

I don't like having multiple builds of the game on my machine. When Epeiros was still pretty generic, the delta wasn't big, so was easy. These changes mean a lot of old elements would have to be preserved somewhere, or I'd have to find a way to use the new ones.

But you're right, as time goes on and factions are more customised, it will be harder and harder to do this sort of re-purposing without a lot of work.

I mean Massalia being a faction in your submod, not in the game.

No, they're not viable which makes the effort to do all the converting more trouble that it's worth. Problem is the changes to Epeiros make using them as the basis of a "new" faction too difficult now. Or at the required effort is greater than I'm willing to expend.

[Jervaj]

Thanks for your answers!

I don't like having multiple builds of the game on my machine. When Epeiros was still pretty generic, the delta wasn't big, so was easy. These changes mean a lot of old elements would have to be preserved somewhere, or I'd have to find a way to use the new ones.

But you're right, as time goes on and factions are more customised, it will be harder and harder to do this sort of re-purposing without a lot of work.

Regarding this bit specifically. I mean technically you would only new to save one aside in whatever place that doesn't disturb your normal work and go to it when you have the time or will. Im a modder myself of another overhaul (for a different game) so I know adapting its never as easy as it seems. But the new shiny features of Epeiros should not make this that much difficult in my opinion, maybe Im missing. The difficult part would be taking the vanilla (that is already available) and making it detailed enough for this new potential faction so it doesn't feel bland.

Anyway I beleive you shouldn't overthink this. The mod looks like its doing great progress in departments that were mroe void later. Lets focus on it, save maybe that "vanilla" data you could potentially use and maybe give this another thought than the road to see if its worth it at all.