Medieval Kingdoms Total War: Kingdom of Georgia - REVAMP

[Ltd.]

That alone shouldn´t be a reason to not use scale: the mongols even used lamellar as neck and throat protection. Even with maille coifs, if they are to be of real use, they would never be just hanging losely to not be hindering head movement, but in fact be backed by some padding underneath against blunt or pierce damage. Most movies depict only a hanging aventail or neckcoif, but that is as useless as only maille as head or body protection without padding.
Also, with armour you will never have the same full range of motions as without.

[Lifthrasir]

I'm not questionning your models Ltd. As Levan said, your models, your decision
I was basically just answering to the question about scale coifs. I actually agree with you, hence my mention of partial scale coif. From what I've found, some coifs used scale protection for the rear side of the neck and/or its lower part (the one covering the upper chest and shoulders), on the same principle of the Mongol one with lamellar parts that you mentionned.
A full scale coif would requier small scales to allow movement. Considering the amount of work for such coif and the fact that craftmen knew the mail stuff (which offers more advantages compare to scales), I'm not convinced by the use of such type of coif (the full scale one). Again, I'm not a specialist and might be wrong

[Khevsur]

I can not find scale coif.I found only chain mail and padding coif

https://www.google.ge/search?q=scale...met+scale+coif

[Levan]

I found them but they are little bit ridiculous.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Ltd.]

Here are some examples of coifs that look like something else than mail:

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...b0b7f79242.jpg - soldier on the left

http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...inal/217-1.jpg - see the difference between the knight on the left, who seems to have a scale coif compared to the one on the right , who seems to have a maille coif, there seems to be stark contrast between the two, though made by the same artist

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...3272c47b98.jpg - guys on the right. it could be maille or scale, but their coif is different compared to the the two guys in the middle and bottom

http://c8.alamy.com/comp/CT59K9/tewk...ire-CT59K9.jpg - obvious difference between the coifs

http://botn.info/wp-content/uploads/...mour-PIC-6.jpg - not proof of historical use, of course, but it serves only to make it easier to visualise how it may have been used

http://ok-t.ru/studopedia/baza14/455...s/image012.jpg - to the right

Here´s a discussion about scale coifs and other possible uses of scale: http://myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic....er=asc&start=0

So, this was just a quick search. I´m sure we could find a whole lot more with a more thorough search.

Again, I am not saying that scale coif was more widespread than maille, but it was apparently used to complement or even substitute maille, possibly due it its rigidity.

Also, above examples are depicting western style combatants, but I don´t see why the KoG wouldn´t use scale coifs as well, when they also clearly preferred lamellar for a very long time.

[Levan]

It's an arguable topic since we have too few sources. My personal opinion is that most likely they were used to complement mail like @Lift described or in the first picture of my post. But how did Georgians implement it...

[Lifthrasir]

I've found this thread in the Vestigia Vetustatis forum. I still need to look through it in details but it might help here

[zsimmortal]

Found a source after 5 seconds of looking.

http://westerndigs.org/origin-of-spa...ps-scientists/

Full coif of scales :

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Now, whether Georgians used something like that is another story entirely, but the image khevsur tried to 'debunk' imo showed a clear use of scale coif, since the 'padded' coif is the exact same colour as metal, which means the artist was depicting metal. Generally speaking, a lot of miniatures I've looked at has mail that looks like scale, but it is always consistent, which leaves little doubt that it is actually mail (scale no longer being used is a big help in coming to that conclusion too). In this case, if there is both mail and scale in the same painting, you can't just say someone did a different take on mail.

[Levan]

"image khevsur tried to 'debunk' imo showed a clear use of scale coif,
since the 'padded' coif is the exact same colour as metal, which means the artist was depicting metal."

Guys why you write such blatant positive claims? I know many of you does have some sense. So, use some Sokratic elements like this:
"which may mean the artist was depicting metal."

Otherwise the statement is simply rude and disrespectful because it is backed up by one very weak argument.
Maybe painter didn't want to use colors other than grey and golden? Why would he draw plain chain mail? etc.

Also, "Byzantine" historians loved to describe everything in details. Did you know that their equipment was reconstructed mostly by writings and with the help of Georgian frescoes because of lacking their own? I am sure you can find Byzantine sources about any kinds of scale armor.

[zsimmortal]

"image khevsur tried to 'debunk' imo showed a clear use of scale coif,
since the 'padded' coif is the exact same colour as metal, which means the artist was depicting metal."

Guys why you write such blatant positive claims? I know many of you does have some sense. So, use some Sokratic elements like this:
"which may mean the artist was depicting metal."
Otherwise the statement is simply rude and disrespectful because it is backed up by one very weak argument.
Maybe painter didn't want to use colors other than grey and golden? Why would he draw plain grey chain mail? etc.

What weak argument? It is the exact same colour as the other metal equipment. You're the only one using speculative arguments ('maybe painter...').

Also, "Byzantine" historians loved to describe everything in details. Did you know that their equipment was reconstructed mostly by writings and with the help of Georgian frescoes because of lacking their own? I am sure you can find Byzantine sources about any kinds of scale armor.

I'm not sure where you're going with this, but yes, 13th-14th century Georgian equipment would have been very similar to Byzantine. What is your point exactly?

[Levan]

What weak argument? It is the exact same colour as the other metal equipment. You're the only one using speculative arguments ('maybe painter...').

Firstly, i didn't mean to speculate. I just wrote some questions to show uncertainty of that coif being chain mail. And of course your argument was weak, I have never seen somebody drawing plain grey and calling it chain. Especially if we are talking about miniature of this quality.

"What is your point exactly?"

My point is this - If scale was used by Georgians as coifs then it is likely that Byzantines did the same and it could be described by their historians. Especially by them because unlike Georgian colleagues they used to write many details.

[zsimmortal]

Firstly, i didn't mean to speculate. I just wrote some questions, to show uncertainty of that coif being mail. And of course your argument was weak, I have never seen somebody drawing plain grey and calling it chain. Especially if we are talking about miniature of this quality.

What uncertainty? The only reason you have uncertainty about this is because you refuse to look at that coif in the context of the painting. It is the exact same colour as other metals. Other armours are clearly scale, so the artist would use something different to make mail.

"What is your point exactly?"

My point is this - If scale was used by Georgians as coifs then it is likely that Byzantines did the same and it could be described by their historians. Especially by them because unlike Georgian colleagues they used to write many details.

You can clearly see they did use scale coifs (with the little white dots) :

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

So now we can stop arguing over that single coif being either cloth or mail. This clearly shows scale coifs.

[Filips Augustus]

Uhm no need to discuss about how things should be discussed. You yourself also "claim" things yourself Levan, I quote: "Coif on the Left is indeed cloth, not mail. It is just plain black." Let's just stay on topic please.

I agree that the coifs depicted in that image is scale, simply because it is drawn in the same form as the golden scale mail worn by the other soldiers.

[Levan]

I agree that the coifs depicted in that image is scale, simply because it is drawn in the same form as the golden scale mail worn by the other soldiers.

Why you assume that only scale can be colored in golden? If i am not wrong, there are golden chain mails in some of the rosters of this mod.

[Levan]

For the sake of god why is it clearly scale? With that logic all Georgian miniatures are only scale. Also some European miniatures. And Greek frescoes i posted which definitely aren't.
You are telling your assumptions based on the first look. I am telling you what i have read, what historians and experts of different nationalities agree on after arguing about the same topic.
It seems, there is no point in continuing this discussion because we won't convince each other until one of us provides reliable source or research by experts.

[zsimmortal]

For the sake of god why is it clearly scale? With that logic all Georgian miniatures are only scale. Also some European miniatures. And Greek frescoes i posted which definitely aren't.
You are telling your assumptions based on the first look. I am telling you what i have read, what historians and experts of different nationalities agree on after arguing about the same topic.
It seems, there is no point in continuing this discussion because we won't convince each other until one of us provides reliable source or research by experts.

Coif on the Left is indeed cloth, not mail. It is just plain black.
The rest coifs can be chain mail because it has no white dots for shining light like body armor of middle and left warrior.
It is doubtful that all these guys had scales in reality. As Khevsur said, scale was used rarely by both Georgians and Byzantines.

And now you say it is NOT clearly scale...?

You're right there's no point in continuing this discussion, as it is the same as bringing a horse to water and it refuses to drink.

[Khevsur]

Georgian historians have discussed. They think this is painter mistake

[zsimmortal]

Georgian historians have discussed. They think this is painter mistake

A painting is art. The artist paints his interpretation of reality. How exactly is it wrong? It can possibly not accurately represent the contemporary military, but wrong?

That said, I don't think you have any credibility to come in here and say that 'georgian historians have discussed' without any sources and tell us what would be accurate. You've said 90% of Georgian soldiers wore metal armour, which would mean Georgia had the most professional military and was the wealthiest kingdom in all of the world at that time, which is the most preposterous and absurd statement that has been made in this forum thus far.

[Levan]

I clearly remember what did i say. Btw, that was answer to other post who said white dots meant shining scale. I basically told him that if so, since there are no dots on the coif, then it is chain.
I didn't say "white dot means scale." If you think so, then you have problems with logic.
Btw, i knew you would quote that. Simply ridiculous..

Oh and Bringing the horse to water isn't enough, you should make sure it isn't a sea.

[warman222]

Okay this thread is being closed. Arguing for multiple pages because you people take issue with a god damn coif model is the hair splitting of friggin legend. And now the discussion is bordering on personal insults, just icing on the cake. I know Ltd has other planned adjustments but as a local mod he can still post in this thread without your nitpicking garbage. This ends NOW. Don't like it, leave our sub-forum.